Trouble with Switching

Currently working on an activity that involves stopping the train on either the main, or an adjacent passing track, leaving full cars here and moving forward with some empties, then backing through a switch off the main to a mining operation. The switch and signal placement is pretty tight as you pull foward untii the last one or two feet of the trailing car remains behind the signal before you can reverse. This, I can live with, for now.
The problem is, after dropping off the cars in the mine siding and picking up full ones, you move back out onto the main after securing permission, and back through the "tight" switch again,now in position to re-couple with the main body of the train. Unfortunately the switch at the end of the passing track won't let you through to the train. I thought the switch would still be open, having moved forward through it onto the main, when first arriving,but such is not the case. I could re-do the act so that the main body of the train stays on the main up to the mining switch, but that fouls both the main and the passing track, and might be a potential problem for AI traffic, as operations here last about 15 minutes.
As this is a first freight activity, I'm sure Ive missed something,any ideas would be appreciated. Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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RE: Trouble with Switching, deejay1020, Mar-15-03, 06:00 PM, (1) RE: Trouble with Switching, kevarc, Mar-15-03, 10:58 PM, (2) RE: Trouble with Switching, Paul1953, Mar-16-03, 02:20 AM, (3) RE: Trouble with Switching, deejay1020, Mar-16-03, 10:18 AM, (4) RE: Trouble with Switching, Paul1953, Mar-16-03, 02:23 PM, (5) RE: Trouble with Switching, Paul1953, Mar-19-03, 04:59 AM, (6) RE: Trouble with Switching, robertreedy, Mar-19-03, 08:40 AM, (7) Status Report, Paul1953, Mar-19-03, 04:11 PM, (8) RE: Status Report, CharlieB, Mar-19-03, 08:28 PM, (9) RE: Status Report, Paul1953, Mar-19-03, 10:53 PM, (10) RE: Status Report, Paul1953, Mar-20-03, 05:50 PM, (11) RE: Status Report, Paul1953, Mar-24-03, 07:49 PM, (12) RE: Status Report, Paul1953, Apr-04-03, 01:58 AM, (13) RE: Status Report, Brad 110, Apr-04-03, 06:35 AM, (14) RE: Status Report, Paul1953, Apr-05-03, 05:05 AM, (15) RE: Trouble with Switching, goonybird, Aug-19-03, 09:48 AM, (16) RE: Trouble with Switching, Paul1953, Sep-09-03, 02:39 AM, (17)

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Are you using reverse points to get your power and empties into the mine siding or are you just throwing the switches manually? It sounds like you are doing everything manually which will leave you with the problems you've described. Adding in reverse points will allow you to do what you want.
Regards,
Dan Zollner - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

Pro Series Geeps

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Yep. Sounds right. Or he could have a auto switch and it is not resetting which whould require the cursed reverse point.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-03 AT 03:28 AM (EDT)

Yes, I should have mentioned that before. There are two station stops prior to this. Both of which are using manual switches, without any real problems. I'm wondering about the placement of the reverse point,as this seems to be the way to go. Keeping in mind the close proximity of the signal to the mining siding track, do I need to place it here , or further down the mainline where the lead engine would stop before reversing?
Then there's the aftermath to deal with as well, in that, while getting into the mining siding is certainly tricky, it can be done,as is. That still leaves the problem of putting the whole train together on the passing track. Should a reverse point be used here also?
I should also have mentioned that prior to arrival, the consist is made up of 40 full ore cars with 20 empties right behind 3 GP7s. Not prototypical for car placement, but necessary for the last couple of moves on the mining tracks. The geeps are required due to a fairly sharp curve on the mining siding. After d/o the empties, you p/u 20 full ore cars along with two more GP7s, now directly behind the original trio, for the haul out to the main and on homeward.
I wish there was some way I could illustrate this for you graphically, as I'm sure its fairly simple for experienced act designers to deal with. But for me, it still is the the last great mystery of act. design. Appreciate the efforts, Gentlemen. Love to have you critique this act. when its ready.
ed.content Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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Paul,
If I were doing this activity I would probably go about it in this way: Drop your train on the passing track and set up a reverse point that will allow you to reverse your power and empties into the mine siding without having to throw the manuals yourself. I'm assuming that the switches are controlled manually inside the siding. Depending on your testing you may need to set up reverse points for both the drop off of the empties and then the pick up of the full ore cars and additional power. Once you have those, head back out onto the main and set up a reverse point once more to pick up your consist you left on the passing track. Lastly, you'll probably need just one more reverse point that is triggered once you actually couple up to your consist. Doing it this way will allow you to follow the path you intended to follow throughout the setout process and it will also be the most effective way to deal with any traffic you may have added that passes you while you're doing your work. I count 6 reverse points in what I described. Of course you could more than likely get away with less and that is entirely up to you, but I do think that at least 3, maybe even 4, are necessary for you to end up getting what you want. Reverse points are a little tricky to get right and until recently I always had to fire up MSTS back and forth to see if what I had was going to work. But Vince, creator of NEC4, has a great little tip about how to set them up that has worked extremely well for me and I haven't had to jump back and forth between the sim and editor since. Here's the link to that:
http://members.aol.com/nectrackteam/activity.htmlHope your efforts work out for you. Regards,
Dan Zollner - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

Pro Series Geeps

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Thanks, Dan. I did a search on reverse points last night and found the tutorial you mentioned, as well as some other threads, with the info needed. Once I get this going, I hope to be able to share it with the community. Many thanks to all who responded, this indeed is a valuable resource. Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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Just wanted to convey my thanks to all who design and develop activities for us out here. The Routes and the Locomotives do get the lion's share of the attention . Well deserved, too. For me, its what you can do with it. Currently I'm trying to produce a fairly easy activity, that is no closer to being finished than it was ten days ago. So I have new found respect for the talent, skill, and most of all, patience of those who give us these activities. For enhancing my enjoyment of this sim, I am most thankful to you all. Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-03 AT 08:41 AM (EDT)

I will give a big second to that one. Routes and rolling stock are great, but as you said .. what do you do with it. Also, a big thanks to all the object designers. Everyone uses their work, but how many stop to really thank them? I have found there is not one segment of TS that is easy to work with, be it AE, RE, all the obtuse tools, etc. .. without everyone working together like they do, there wouldn't be much here.

RobertR .. ADF-M&RM at http://www.adfrr.com

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I can leave the main part of the train in the passing track. I can pull forward through the passing track switch and past the the mining siding switch. Mining siding switch is still manual, you still must stop before the last car passes the signal. Once on the siding track, the switch at the mine is now automatic. A reverse point is far enough up the main to accomodate the larger consist when ready to come back out onto the main. The siding switch is now automatic when reversing back to the passing track. However, the switch will not align into the passing siding. Tried adding reverse points in the mining siding and after the passing
siding in sequence, but the sim wont accommodate 2 reverse points on the main( one past the passing track before the siding switch, the other past the siding switch ). Take #138! Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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Do you absolutely need to have all those cars, or could you redesign the consists for one fewer cars on the d/o and p/u? Sounds like you might be running into the problem of getting the entire consist between the reversing point and the switch...am I right?

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-03 AT 11:02 PM (EDT)

Actually the reason these particular hoppers were chosen, was that these are small, short wheel base cars. This was necessitated by the sharp curve in the mining siding leading to the last drop area.The sharp curve was also the factor in choosing the GP9s for the job. Could have used sw1500s or RS-(your choice here).But I like the geeps.
The distance is not a problem at this time. The last series of moves involves 3 locos and 20 empties going in, and 5 locos and 20 full cars coming out. I made sure that the first reverse point was far enough down the main to accomodate 5 locos and 20 cars, with a little extra to get past the signal located at the junction with the mining siding. Following Dan's advice, I also placed a reverse point behind the "stranded" consist. So the exit begins, and I still can't get the passing track switch to line up.
Dan mentioned placing other reverse points, which I tried. But I'm not clear where the reverse point for the line up into the passing track, should be placed. The other problem is that when I do try to place a reverse point, to get to the passing track, I lose the reverse point for the mining siding. This is after choosing a point, that I thought might have to go on the mainline between the passing siding switch and the mining siding switch.
If I could turn this over to some of the real talents out here, I'd have it up and running in five minutes(lol!). But then I'd not learn anything, and it would still be a mystery. And on top of this, I still have to learn AI, and activity packaging. If I can get to the level of a Kevarc or a Long Haired Wizard or any of the other activity writers/designers, then I'll be happy. It will also give me a chance to get all my ideas down, and contribute to this fine hobby, and the train-sim community. Learn it,Live it,and Pass it on.Rule #1 Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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Do you think anybody would mind if I used some screen shots to illustrate this problem here, or should I do that in the screen shot forum? Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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Making progress. Secrets of reverse point placement slowly revealed. Now attempting AI. Bottles of aspirin and snake oil within arms reach! Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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LAST EDITED ON Apr-04-03 AT 01:59 AM (EDT)

Back to original problem. Got the activity to work somehow. Swapped out non- for de-fault loco's ( no AI at this time ). Took results to original activity. Ran right back into problem with the passing siding switch. Went back to the act for this specific operation. Pulled thru the passing siding, leaving the 40 full cars behind. Able to back into the mining siding and complete d/o an coupled up to the stranded train OK. But now, I get a red signal before the main. There's no trains coming,..no AI. Can't get permission either. Any ideas? Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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Have you tried setting your reverse point far enough out so that the end of the consist actually passes the signal? I had a problem on an activity that seems to be like what you are describing, and I was always either getting locked out of the siding or the main after I made my pickup. What I found was that the sim seemed to need to see that last car in the consist clear the signal before the lead unit hit the reverse point. Then I was able to make a path that allowed me to reverse into the siding, pick up my string, pull out of the siding (again, with the last car passing the signal before the lead hits the reverse point), and then back down to pick up the portion I dropped on the main (in your case passing track. OTOH I may have misunderstood what you are saying.In any event, paths, signals, switches, and reverse points work together in strange and mysterious ways.Brad Meyer

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LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-03 AT 05:05 AM (EDT)

Thanks, Brad. Still experimenting with reverse point placement. At some point I will hit the right combination. So for now, more effort required,more luck needed, and hopefully soon I'll be posting the act to the library. Appreciate your thoughts and will try your suggestions,asap. Thanks again. Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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> . . . I'm wondering about the
>placement of the reverse pointThe feedback in the following message would most likely apply to your above-quoted note:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID7/1737.html#6Cheershttp://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Bayou/4804/ a fictitious network serving London, Weymouth, and points in between

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Thanks for the info, never did get it to work exactly as planned , so I went to "Plan B". The activity has since been uploaded as FBLv2 Freight Activity "Copper Train" The method used to complete the action described above seems to not bother many, as after nearly 300 d/ls, there has been no complaints. At least not until now ( bet I just open a can of worms!). Paul

" I hear my train a-comin'"
Jimi Hendrix

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