Message Areas - "A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack."

Train-Sim.Com Message Areas

"A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack."

Email this topic to a friend
Printer-friendly version of this topic
Bookmark this topic (Registered users only)
Previous Topic | Next Topic Conferences MSTS Locomotive Design (Protected) Original message
chrisell (110 posts)
Aug-14-01, 08:47 PM (EST) "A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." I've cracked the blurry texture thing - properly, not using the "Point" hack.I came home and looked at my models with the change to the shape file 'named_filter_mode' set to "Point" instead of "MipLinear" and wasn't satisfied. They aliased badly, and lost the nice smoothing effect of the MIP texture. So I rummaged around in the shape file and this is what I found:1. Leave the named_filter_mode set to "MipLinear" - you don't need to touch it.
2. Look for texture definition lines that read like this: texture ( 0 0 0 ff000000 )There will be one line for each texture you have used.3. Change the third digit in each line from the default 0 to -3 so it looks like this : texture ( 0 0 -3 ff000000 )The minus number is a MIP multiplier. Set to -1, it makes nearly no difference. Set to -2 and the change is noticeable, but not on carriages that are a long way away like those in my Eurostar. Set to -3 and you've got the same value Kuju use in their trains. The advantage is that the textures now don't go all fuzzy at a distance, but they maintain the MIP level smoothing (which they don't when you use the 'Point' hack).So now you can have nice smooth textures up-close, and non-blurry textures in the distance. I would post a couple of images, but you've all seen the differences between Kuju trains and our trains.
Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... chrisell Aug-14-01 1 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... chrisell Aug-14-01 2 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... dekosoft Aug-14-01 3 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... driver89 Aug-14-01 4 Awsome! Hack Aug-15-01 5 RE: Awsome! jerseycentral Aug-15-01 6 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... johnf Aug-15-01 7 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... RvA1 Aug-15-01 8 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... LocoRo Aug-15-01 9 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... chrisell Aug-15-01 10 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... LocoRo Aug-15-01 14 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... ACyLum Aug-15-01 11 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... Hack Aug-15-01 15 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... ACyLum Aug-16-01 18 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... Hack Aug-16-01 19 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... rrfoose Aug-15-01 12 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... chrisell Aug-15-01 13 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... kenm62 Aug-16-01 16 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... chrisell Aug-16-01 17 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... rrfoose Aug-17-01 20 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... driver89 Aug-17-01 21 RE: A Real blurry texture breakthro... chrisell Aug-20-01 22

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Messages in this topic
chrisell (110 posts)
Aug-14-01, 08:49 PM (EST) 1. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." One other thing - I think I'm on the point of solving the "third wheel on the bogie" problem too.I'll be posting a modellers mini FAQ on my website in the next day or so with the answers to this, blurry textures, pantographs and wipers in it Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chrisell (110 posts)
Aug-14-01, 09:07 PM (EST) 2. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." Screw it. I've put the mini-FAQ up already so you can all reap the benefits. It's here:http://www.geocities.com/chrislonghurst/christrains/ Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dekosoft (42 posts)
Aug-14-01, 09:38 PM (EST) 3. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." Ace detective work! Thanks for sharing.Chip
dekosoft.com Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
driver89 (199 posts)
Aug-14-01, 09:40 PM (EST) 4. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." It works, It really works. I'm so happy now maybee my models can get better. Here is a before And here is an after... You can really see the difference. I see a second release coming......Now with new and improve textures, plus a few other tweaks.I think I speak for everyone of us amateur types when I say thanks Chris. A great big thanks. Cheers,
James. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (173 posts)
Aug-15-01, 00:09 AM (EST) 5. "Awsome!" A big thanks Chris! This game's getting better by the minute! Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jerseycentral (178 posts)
Aug-15-01, 00:48 AM (EST) 6. "RE: Awsome!" LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-01 AT 01:48 AM (EST)just uploaded FFEdit.zip (i think to the right place) should make using that utility easier! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
johnf (59 posts)
Aug-15-01, 02:23 AM (EST) 7. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." way to go chris! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
RvA1 (184 posts)
Aug-15-01, 02:31 AM (EST) 8. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." Out standing! Great leg work there Chris, I can finialy finish my DD now.ThanksRoger Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LocoRo (107 posts)
Aug-15-01, 05:56 AM (EST) 9. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." Great News Can users who downloaded your trains also change this number in the files ? What file and what do we need to open it .. greetings Roland
Netherlands Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chrisell (110 posts)
Aug-15-01, 10:53 AM (EST) 10. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." You can - just edit the .s shape files using WordPad - it understands unicode. I'm re-releasing the trains today with this fix in them. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LocoRo (107 posts)
Aug-15-01, 03:56 PM (EST) 14. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." >You can - just edit the
>.s shape files using WordPad
>- it understands unicode. I'm
>re-releasing the trains today with
>this fix in them.
Thanks Chris
Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ACyLum (111 posts)
Aug-15-01, 11:57 AM (EST) 11. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." That's really excellent work Chris!I'm glad you were able to find a true way to get rid of texture blurring. Chris has been one of the many who had emailed me and understood my concerns with the blur issue.You are right Chris, the "Point" hack isn't a true solution. I guess Marc really does live up to his Handle. I did LOL when I saw the F7 updates exploiting the "Point" hack. I can't wait for the next update..then the next update....then the next....that's life BEHIND the ball, I guess....He's another tidbit to help you out. While it is true that 3 to -3 affect the level of Mip that is visible at the farthest range (i.e. 2000), don't overlook the MipLinear. Change this to LinearMipLinear to get bi or trilinear blending between the Mips(depends on your graphics card). Use this in conjuction with the mip-level number(try 0 first). The trick is to find a happy medium between non-blur and blur in the distance to get rid of the moire patterns. The problem is that the current solution doesn't seem to give too much control over the distance that mip-mapping happens at. This is the real key to solving both the blur and the moire pattern artifacts. What you have found is, still, a great solution. At Trainartisan, we went a little deeper and discovered the shader building blocks - (we couldn't work past the moire pattern artifacts, when we initially started, so we went to this). With this, we've been able to get at the distance numbers for mip-map switching. While we were down there, we found things that allowed us to do per-pixel reflection and per-pixel specular as well as some other surprises. And what's amazing is I've tested this on a Geforce 1 with plain drivers! - not the most hi-tech card - the frame drop was only 1-2 frames. Per-pixel reflection and specular is important because you can put dirt, grease and grime on your locos and cars and when the sun shines on these surfaces, you'll see the highlight on the shiny areas, and dimmer highlight on the dirt and stuff. It looks really cool and really adds detail.Even though many people complain about the KuJu engine, there is alot of sophitication built in. I actually have more respect for them now that we've been able to see "behind the curtain". They just need to get everything hooked up right...maybe in MSTS 1.1 or 1.2We'll start posting more info about this advanced shader stuff at www.trainartisan.com after we've complete our tools and can show some examples... MSTS really does have alot of easter eggs!!
Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (173 posts)
Aug-15-01, 11:38 PM (EST) 15. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." > I guess Marc really does live up to his Handle. I did
>LOL when I saw the F7 updates exploiting the "Point"
>hack. I can't wait for the next update..then the
>next update....then the next....that's life
>BEHIND the ball, I guess.... 1) And your point for attacking me is...?2) Why would you care if I post updates of my work?3) You won't be releasing an update to your Hudson?Cheers!
Marc Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ACyLum (111 posts)
Aug-16-01, 02:07 PM (EST) 18. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." >1) And your point for attacking
>me is...? Hey, calm down hot-head - it just makes me laugh...
Why don't you take a look at the post you made on my thread -
http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=659&forum=DCForumID5&omm=36"
>Its not that big a deal however folks IMHO.You just about nailed it, John. It's actually the filter used for the 'S' file:named_filter_mode ( Point )Change this line at the top of the S file before compressing, and the blurred textures are solved. A nice undocumented feature in MSTS, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it "Trainartisan Technology." After all, 3DTrains is the first to release a locomotive with this feature (F7A v1.35).Let's just call it a "Kuju-ala-3DTrains Workaround." ;o)Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
"Doesn't this make you laugh too? - considering how everything has turned out? Come-on Marc, lighten-up...
I just figured - if Marc can dish it out he can take it too. >2) Why would you care if
>I post updates of my
>work? I don't, it just makes me laugh. >3) You won't be releasing an
>update to your Hudson? Sure, I will. But it'll include a bunch more than just the advanced texture technology - we've been working hard to include alot of extra surprises for the MSTS community out there. Not only that, we give it to the community all free. All the research and development that we do, we put it in our product, and just hand it out....By the Way, I'd like to say thanks to all of the trainsimmers out there who have sent email in support of trainartisan. - It's because of you and you're support - that's why we do this...we just love the community.....we might even throw some love over to Marc every once in awhile - he makes us laugh....
Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (173 posts)
Aug-16-01, 03:12 PM (EST) 19. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." >Hey, calm down hot-headI'm not mad - especially at you. Just that I didn't see your point about attacking me for sharing a solution. Whether it was the right one or not was evident when Chris posted his fix. I thank him for that, and look forward to reading of his other discoveries. >>3) You won't be releasing an
>>update to your Hudson?
>
>Sure, I will. But it'll include
>a bunch more than just
>the advanced texture technology -Terrific, I look forward to seeing how it comes out. Perhaps you can also fix the animation so it won't make the drivers appear to run backwards? This would really enhance your Hudson IMHO.>...we just love the community.....Speaking of which, an announcement will be made shortly regarding a first for train/flight/racing simulations. I can almost gaurantee you'll sit back and say "why didn't I think of that?!" Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rrfoose (17 posts)
Aug-15-01, 02:29 PM (EST) 12. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." Where exactly is this spot that we are supposed to make the changes at? Please email me.
Chase Zickefoose
Foose
rrfoose@aol.com Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chrisell (110 posts)
Aug-15-01, 02:51 PM (EST) 13. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." Check the mini modellers FAQ at http://www.geocities.com/chrislonghurst/christrains for the details. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
kenm62 (15 posts)
Aug-16-01, 10:10 AM (EST) 16. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." Chris,I have tried your suggested change and had great success with it. But, I would like to point out that not all default MSTS wagons have the "-3" setting. I checked out the US2freight6 and US2freight7 box cars. They have a "-4" setting on the textures.Thanks,Ken Martello Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chrisell (110 posts)
Aug-16-01, 10:51 AM (EST) 17. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." Interesting - I missed those. I wonder why they have it set so high - it's not like there's a huge amount of detail on those cars.....
Chris Longhurst (christrains)
Read the mini FAQ at:
http://www.geocities.com/chrislonghurst/christrains Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rrfoose (17 posts)
Aug-17-01, 10:23 PM (EST) 20. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." I found a the spot we're supposed to make the changes. There are two that look exactly alike. Do I change both? Actually the first one looks like the example's given, but the second one has a 1 followed by two 0's and then the ff00... Do I change the second one? Thanks for the help!
Chase Zickefoose
Foose
rrfoose@aol.com Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
driver89 (199 posts)
Aug-17-01, 11:00 PM (EST) 21. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." Depends on how you set them up in studio max. On my trains where I have used 2 or 3 texture maps I found that the first number refers to the texture map. For example on my Class 37 I used a BMP for the body and a TGA for the wheels. In this case the first number showed up as 0 and 1 which meant I had to change the value for the first Texture map which was the BMP file. Everything looks good. I guess there would be no harm in changing both, that way my bogies would have shown up as clearly as the body did. Cheers,
James. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chrisell (110 posts)
Aug-20-01, 10:58 AM (EST) 22. "RE: A Real blurry texture breakthrough - and it's not the "Point" hack." Yes - change it. There's one per texture. The first number is the texture reference, the second should stay '0' and the third should become -3.Chris Longhurst (christrains)
Read the mini FAQ at:
http://www.geocities.com/chrislonghurst/christrains Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Lock | Archive | Remove

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic