Austral Bay route

Gentlemen –I have just uploaded “Austral Bay” to the file library. You will find it as austb_1.zip and austb_2.zip.Those of you familiar with my Dragon Bay route will feel immediately at home. I’ve made a few minor scenic changes, altered some of the track at Anderson and, over the bridge at Austral Bay, there is now an industrial area with warehouses that generate boxcar loads. This new area is rather like an enlarged but simplified “Timesaver”.But the most significant changes are the addition of signals to the route and “Australization” by adding eucalyptus trees, wattle bushes and altering the ground textures.For those of you not familiar with my original Dragon Bay route, it is based on Jim Ward’s “Port Ogden and Northern”. The main line track is basically the same, but the yards have been extensively modified to accommodate major industries, including a paper mill, brewery, power station, cement plant, railroad workshops and a steel works. The changes make it a logistics rather than a shunting route. I’ve also altered the scenery to improve the frame rate on mid-range PCs.The addition of signals and AI traffic has made a tremendous difference.With the signals and with some care in setting up the AI trains, it is now possible to run AI trains with eight minute headways on the route. To an opposing player train, this equates to a train about every three minutes, turning what could a relaxing drive through pleasant scenery into a stimulating, even nerve wracking, “will the signal in front of me turn red just as I get to it” experience.And crossing consists of 2 x Dash9 with 50 chemical cars in tow is very, very impressive.Apart from this route and PO&N, I don’t know of any other MSTS route that allows such intense interaction with AI trains.I know that freight trains at 8 minute headways is not at all prototypical. The nearest I have personally come to this was travelling from west to east on the Trans-Siberian Railway in the mid-70s. Our passenger train crossed a 52 car freight train every 10 minutes, 24 hours a day for several days.
In the docs_maps folder contained in the AustralBay folder there are large scale maps of the route and detailed instructions about creating activities and setting up AI trains. A FAQ section attempts to address most of the issues that might arise with the route.
Despite the detailed scenery, the route is in two smallish files of less than 10 MB in size, suitable for downloading by dial-up modems. The small size of the download is due to the limited use of custom objects.Frame rate hold up quite well, even with AI traffic. On my PC frame rates are usually in the twenty, thirties and forties, even with full shadow effects.
I’d recommend this route to those of you who:
. Enjoyed the original Dragon Bay.
. Want a route that is easy to download and install.
. Expect reasonable frame rates on a route.
. Enjoy interacting with AI trains.
. Want to learn a bit more about creating activities.
. Just want to have some fun for an hour or so.Of course, it also provides an interesting fictitious route to run the many superb Australian locomotives and items rolling stock now available from train-sim and other sites.
Some screen shots follow.
Please consider,Phil Skene
Adelaide, South Australia

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RE: Austral Bay route, sinclair97, Jun-03-04, 08:16 PM, (1) RE: Austral Bay route, philskene, Jun-03-04, 10:31 PM, (2) RE: Austral Bay route, pointroberts, Jun-04-04, 04:29 AM, (3) RE: Austral Bay route, philskene, Jun-04-04, 04:47 AM, (4) RE: Austral Bay route, Swissie, Jun-04-04, 05:23 AM, (5) RE: Austral Bay route, sniper297, Jun-06-04, 09:12 PM, (6) RE: Austral Bay route, philskene, Jun-06-04, 10:20 PM, (7) RE: Austral Bay route, sniper297, Jun-06-04, 11:20 PM, (8) RE: Austral Bay route, philskene, Jun-06-04, 11:44 PM, (9) RE: Austral Bay route, sniper297, Jun-07-04, 00:03 AM, (10) RE: Austral Bay route, philskene, Jun-07-04, 00:32 AM, (11) RE: Austral Bay route, sniper297, Jun-07-04, 00:54 AM, (12) RE: Austral Bay route, niknak, Jun-07-04, 02:15 AM, (13) RE: Austral Bay route, msavianney, Jun-07-04, 10:41 AM, (14) RE: Austral Bay route, sinclair97, Jun-07-04, 01:44 PM, (15) RE: Austral Bay route, CMO, Jun-07-04, 03:24 PM, (16) RE: Austral Bay route, philskene, Jun-07-04, 10:37 PM, (17) RE: Austral Bay route, philskene, Jun-07-04, 10:40 PM, (18) RE: Austral Bay route, niknak, Jun-08-04, 02:10 AM, (19)

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Phil,That train interaction every eight minutes is very impressive, so what I want to know is how did you manage not to have any activity bugs like that "guy" from Chicago if your route is based on his?Mike

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Hi Mike –You mean that Al Capone has a protection racket for MSTS AI trains now?Seriously, your question is a good one and deserves a reasonable answer but note also that I did say “and with some care in setting up the AI trains … .”!Firstly I was not aware that Jim was having AI problems. Has he managed to resolve them?Secondly, it has taken exactly a month to transfer from one ADSL ISP to another, so this has given me the opportunity to do a lot more testing before uploading the route than would have otherwise have been the case.One interesting discovery which flies in the face of the conventional wisdom posted here some time ago is that, at least on Austral Bay, what happens in the Video Player in the Activity Editor is EXACTLY what happens in the simulation.The way Austral Bay is signalled means that any stalled AI train or string of stalled AI trains will not impede the player train, providing of course that the AI trains are short enough to fit into passing loops. Most loops in Austral Bay are considerably longer than a 2 x Dash 9 + 50 consist, so it is usually possible for the player train to pass a bottleneck and proceed to the next station where the free roaming 7 key camera can be used.My observation, based on re-running the activity in the Activity Editor, is that the video player perfectly replicates any problems I have with AI trains when running the simulation.I use Activity Changer to experiment with various AI consists and headways, so it is quite simple to change AI train parameters and repeat activities in both the simulation and in the Activity Editor video player.
Some interesting findings:1. Whether an activity works or not seems to depend, in part, on the level of complexity. “Complexity” includes the number of loose consists, the length of the AI consists, AI headways, the player consist, and the fact that steam locomotives are more complex than diesels.2. Activities with AI consists of similar performance at fixed intervals are more successful than activities with consists of dissimilar performance at mixed headways.“Similar performance” can achieved by using identical consists or using ConBuilder to match consists with similar power and weight.In other words, try not to use a mixture of fast and slow AI trains.3. The north western corner of Austral Bay is always problematic for AI activities. It is well neigh impossible to get an activity started in the simulation (even though it may work in the video player) for player activities that start at Anderson, Pauluden and Stevens. I’ve never been able to get AI trains with Dash 9 or SD40 locomotives to work at these three locations. Some non-default locomotives do work, but not on a consistent basis.Fiddling with the terminating point for the AI route for westbound trains, there seems to be a point on the loop just north of Anderson that creates this particular problem. Terminate the AI trains to the east of this – no problem; to the west – no start.Player trains at all other locations will generally work if set up correctly.4. The time of starting the player train can be critical.I usually start my player activity at 0750 because it gives time to travel light engine from the locomotive depot, couple up to the train, do a brake test, seek the Dispatcher’s authority to start, and be underway as the sun rises at 0800.However, moving the start time back or forward by just one minute can make the difference between the activity working or not working in the video player.5. At short headways, westbound AI activities seem to be more successful than eastbound.I think that is relates to the congested loops at the south western end of the route that can prevent AI trains from clearing before the next AI train is created.
What does this all mean?If you look at the second of my screen shots you will see a double arm absolute signal for the AI route and a single arm permissive signal with a dwarf signal for the player route.What you do not see are the four single arm absolute signals placed underground immediately before the two arm absolute signal. This is to control the aggressive behaviour of the AI dispatcher in reserving blocks in front of the AI train.Without these four absolute signals, a westbound player train at say VanDenH would be forced to stop at a red signal when an eastbound AI train departs Anderson (perhaps an exaggeration, but only slightly). With anything less than say a 40 minute headway, the player signal will always be red. With a 40 minute headway, the opportunity to interact with AI trains would be negligible.So, at one end of each loop there are 7 signals. Two ends to each loop gives 14 signals per loop, plus the two swithstands that are not visible in the screen shots, plus intermediate signals in the longer loops. Now multiply this by the number of loops.An AI train also takes up to 150 minutes to travel from one end of the route to the other. At a 10 minute headway this equates to 15 AI trains on the route simultaneously.So the end result is that a lot is going on within the simulation simultaneously.
My theory is that sometimes it all becomes a bit too much – for example, the player train starting makes the AI dispatcher forget to clear a signal for an AI train, or set a switch for the correct AI route.Or the sheer number of AI trains just make it impossible for Dispatcher to cope with all the signals.This seems to be reflected in the video player. AI trains just seem to stop at a red signal for no apparent reason; in the extreme, they wonder off on the wrong tracks.If it was just one particular signal or one particular switch that caused the problem it might be solvable. However, while one particular activity seems to have one particular problem signal, other activities have other problem signals, almost at random.
All this seems to be rather long winded, but it sums up my experience.If there are alternative reasons, I sure as hell would like to know. Likewise, if these AI problems can be overcome.And if anybody succeeds in running 5 or even 3 minute headways on this route, I’d also like to know.
Best,
Phil

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An AI train also takes up to 150 minutes to travel from one end of the route to the other. At a 10 minute headway this equates to 15 AI trains on the route simultaneously.Phil, what would happen if the AI trains were programmed to operate only in the expected general area of visibility of the player train?I think Lukas Lusser aka "swissie" had some ideas along that line.

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Good comment.But the route works on the principle of the PO&N “open ended activity”, where the only certainties are that the player commences at a fixed location and finishes when he/she is too tired/bored/frustrated to continue or the spouse/partner/dog/power company/… turns off the computer. This could be minutes, hours or days.In between, the player could be anywhere doing anything on the route.So, if the player starts in one extreme corner and the AI trains in the other corner and follow the predetermined AI route, the AI trains need to commence about 150 minutes before the player otherwise the player will not meet any AI trains for some considerable time.Even if the player and AI trains start adjacent to each other and at the same time, the AI trains need to run for the duration of the activity which, being open ended is indeterminableThe maths therefore remain the same – 150 minutes divided by 10 minute headways equals 15 trains (each possibly 2 locomotives plus 50 cars, or even more) on the route simultaneously).Quite a task for the simulation I would think? No wonder it sometimes does not cope!Phil

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-04 AT 05:25 AM (EDT)

> I think Lukas Lusser aka "swissie" had some ideas along that line.Whoa, that has been a loooooooong time ago - you've got a photographic memory (or a well organized MSTS folder ). Yes, I think I posted that line of thought when we talked about setting up point-to-point activities no long routes, such as Marias or the Kootenai River. In other words in routes where the player's progress along a "straight2 route makes it pretty clear when he will be in which area, and when he'll leave it. AustralBay being based on PO&N means that the track layout is more like a model RR layout (no disqualification intended here!), meaning that it is an ingenious arrangement of loops & horseshoes taking AI and player trains through different corners of the same region repeatedly. Or in other words: You may meet the same AI service a couple of times during your run, without ever knowing when and where you will be next time.But as the signalling approach with clever combinations of absolute, permissive, and distant signals used by Jim, and (hopefully) adapted on a 1:1 basis by Phil, makes the interaction of AI and player trains totally different form any point-to-point route, disregarding this this rule of thumb of "local" AI traffic is no problem, I guess...Btw: I could resolve some of my problems on Marias and other routes after daring to dig deeper into MSTS Route Editor and the signal configuration files (sigcfg.dat). The crucial value causing stalls and cornfield meets is the number of signals that must be clear ahead for the AI and player paths to clear. If distances between passing sidings vary a lot, and signals are simply placed every 2 miles, then the number of signals between sidings also differs for each stretch of single track mainline, and that requires a relatively high number of clear signals to be set in the sigcfg. Marias uses 6 by default, if I remember that correctly. On the other hand, this can translate to the player being held already 2 sidings away from the AI train, when there would be enough time for him to reach the next siding safely (because the AI is 6 signals away...). Reducing the number to 3 wouldn't help because then a cornfield meet became a possibility on longer single stretches of track when there are more than 3 signals inbetween the safety of two adjacent sidings.Deleting some signals in the RE to standardize the number of signals to 3 between any pair of sindings, plus altering the number of signals clear ahead to 4, made my meets work like a charm. Why 4? When the sim decides if you are clear to leave a siding, the first signal that has to be clear is the one out of your siding, then you'll pass two permissive intermediate signals on the single track main, followed by the absolute at the entry into the safety of the next siding, which sums up to the total number of 4 greens - the 5th one and thus the first one which can be red at this decisive moment is the exit of the following siding). Also did so on some other routes with similar problems, e.g. Cajon where sometimes 3, 4 or 5 signals can be found inbetween sidings.)Ups, I strayed off-topic a bit, but hope you find it useful thoughLukas a.k.a Swissie

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Hey Phil, wassup?Yeah, I had no end of problems with the PO&N activities:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/23325.htmlA moment's thought would indicate the reason why, your activities have to start at certain times in certain locations or it locks up, you particularly mentioned the NW corner, Anderson/Paludan/Fowlis/Stevens Point. Biggest problem there appears to be that big junction east of Anderson, where AI trains are going four directions at once. Spreading out the switching areas for PO&N 9 helps, spacing AI traffic at 12 minutes also helps, but for starting in Fowlis it's still pretty damn touchy about timing and the total number of loose consists. I haven't yet experimented with longer trains, currently I'm running the simplified PO&N 8 set with 3 identical consists of one engine and 9 cars. Ten minutes spacing with 350 loose consists on the route gives me send/don't send when starting at Fowlis (unless the time is adjusted exactly to the "sweet spot"), 12 minute spacing with 250 loose consists causes no problems. So I dunno yet, every little bit helps, but so far there isn't one single thing you can point to and say "EUREKA!". 500 loose consists with no AI traffic works, 10 minute AI traffic spacing with no loose consists works. 500 loose consists and 10 minute spacing causes no problems whatsoever if I start the activity somewhere other than that northwest corner, and I can drive thru the northwest corner after starting elsewhere without problems. For a while, again this is one of them insidious bugs, if I start in Texas Tea on PO&N 8 I start getting "failed to create SMS object" or "error inserting/removing AI service" sometimes preceded by disappearing scenery after an hour or two of driving around. It's particularly noticeable at Johnsburg, when you drive thru or past (on the upper level) Johnsburg the second or third time, some/most/all of the scenery disappears. That's with 300 loose consists, reduce the number of loose consists, delay the onset of the problem. The current PO&N 9 is much more tolerant, with 516 loose consists I can start at the new Texas Tea and drive around the entire route for about 3 hours before the scenery starts disappearing, without any SMS or error inserting/removing. (Save, exit, reload, all the scenery is back again, so it's some kind of memory leak.) Can't start in Fowlis with 516 loose consists tho, even with 12 minute AI spacing, gotta have less than 300.Anyway, all that's not why I came in here, I downloaded your upside-down PO&N route, but I'm having a problem with the extraction. Winzip says "diskette in drive C: is labeled "", WinZip expected "PKBACK #001". No matter what I do after that it won't unzip. Any ideas?

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Hi Jim –Thanks for the comments.For the reasons you outlined before, I’ve placed considerably fewer loose consists than before – I’m not in front of my MSTS PC, but from memory it must be less than a score.But I’m not quite in agreement with your thoughts about the difficulty in starting activities in the north western corner.From what I said above: “Fiddling with the terminating point for the AI route for westbound trains, there seems to be a point on the loop just north of Anderson that creates this particular problem. Terminate the AI trains to the east of this – no problem; to the west – no start.”I played around a lot with the AI route for trains heading west across the top part of the route, progressively moving the terminating point to the left – and with no loose consists, basic AI train formations, … . Just as simple as possible.At a particular point activities just would not start. I took the coordinates of this “problem point”, examined the track in detail in Route Editor but could find nothing wrong with the trackwork. In desperation I even tore up and relayed the track. Made no damn difference!In the Anderson area my trackwork is not identical to yours (the AI route bypasses the yard on both the northern and southern sides) and the “problem point” is well before the point where trains start circulating in multiple directions.After a week of frustration I finally shrugged my shoulders and concluded that this is just another of MSTS’s little quirks, or maybe a little problem created by Sniper to confuse those who dare to copy his route!
You might find that the “error inserting/removing AI service” is caused by congestion at the spawn point. I’ve found that if an AI train cannot clear the spawn area before another AI train is created the Sim generates that error message.
Difficulty in extracting the zip files? Not sure what is doing this. I’ll try downloading and installing my own route at home tonight. In the meantime:
. Have you followed my instructions?
. Do you have the latest WinZip?
. Has anybody else had this problem?Best,
Phil

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Hmmm.". Have you followed my instructions?"Yep. Both zips extracted to the same folder, but that ain't the problem, the little beggar says the volume info is wrong before it even gets to the second file.". Do you have the latest WinZip?"Nope. 8.0, downloading 9.0 right now. Forgot to check for updates since 8.0 has worked fine til now.". Has anybody else had this problem?"Only me and my imaginary friend so far. Download complete, I'll install 9.0 and try again. If no luck, I'll try downloading the austral zips again, let ya know."I'll download it tonight"TONIGHT? Maybe my perception of timezones in the antipodes is a bit skewed, but isn't it about 10 o'clock tommorrow morning where you are?!

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I think you might need Winzip 8.1 or better - blame it all on the latest versions of RouteRiter because everybody seemed to manage with any old WinZip before. I think you can also unzip in RouteRiter, though I've never tried this.We are 8.5h ahead of GMT, 0.5h behind Sydney (and as they used to say in the past, 50 years ahead of Queensland).It's 1314 Monday 7 June right now, Central Standard Time.

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June 6th 22:56 Central Daylight Savings Time here, IIRC we're ZULU -5 Standard time and ZULU -6 Daylight time. I haven't flown in over 20 years, so my recollection might be rusty.Well, that did it all right, I think. Winzip 9.0 did indeed have no problem unzipping it, but with all that talk about AI traffic trains I was expecting AI traffic trains?! I got a total of six services here, all six activities say traffic pattern "none", and the traffic folder only has the blank.txt file in it, no .trf files. Did I miss a zipfile?

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Jim –What are you doing up so late? Our combined ages puts us well past a century and you should be tucked in bed and asleep. Insomnia?Many thanks. It’s a relief to know that it does unzip. My pulse rate always soars when someone even remotely hints that my upload generates error messages.But remember, when all else fails:!!READ THE DOCUMENTATION!!As you know yourself, we all go to tremendous lengths to prepare this stuff, only to find it totally ignored.There is a maps and document folder. Inside it is a file called AB.doc.Seriously, this is a route designed for non-default rolling stock, so I have provided sufficient information in the documentation to get all who bother to read it up and running. It provides details about using the MSTS Activity Editor to set up a player train and loose consists, and how to use Activity Changer to add the AI trains.If there are a sufficient number of people who would like pre-packaged activities, I’ll resist it like hell but will also upload a zip file with activities based on default rolling stock.Any requests?Phil

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"Insomnia", no, I got bit by a vampire, can only sleep in the daytime in a wood coffin now.Oh well, if you're gonna make me read the documentation now, that oughtta help put me to sleep.

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Hi Phil. My d'load/install of the route went fine. I would love some activities with lots of AI trains though, if you're prepared to upload. Default stock would be fine, I can use ConBuilder to change it around. (Yes, I KNOW I should have worked out how to do my own acts by now - put it down to being a teenager trapped inside a 54 yr old body......) BTW Your route works fine with the lights on!!Regards, Nick (UK)

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Hey Phil,Downloaded it yesterday, have been running it today, way more than I should be! Gotta run some Aussie activites on it. Now it seems I'll have to get off my behind and work out how to do activities, something I've successfully resisted until now! Nice screenies, the Aussie stuff looks the part among the gum trees. Thanks alot, to you and to the Coconut Guy himself! Thanks Phil, Thanks Jum!Cheers,
Matt

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Team-ALCO
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Phil and Jim,I have been following Jim's postings on his route with much interest: the information Jim has given out on combating the inherent limitations of MSTS i.e. the "hard-coding" will--for those who have paid attention--provide textbook instructions on how to avoid certain pitfalls when creating a route--especially the "extra tile insulation (tiles that are not overloaded with memory). And although most of it is over the top of my head, I am impressed in the way both Jim and Phil have contributed to the further development and refinement of "Signalling" not seen before.Which just leaves the AI consists problem, so from a layman's view, I would like to ask what problems are there to consider in creating a single consist file out of many lose consists: in other words, make 50 wagons files into one wagon file, or at least con MSTS into thinking that? If it could be done then the benefit is going to be obvious. Mike

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I, for one, would appreciate some activites using all default equipment. Then I can attempt to learn how to make activities a little later.

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Hi Mike –I haven’t forgotten your contribution to “Dragon Mountain Pass” and I’ll remember to keep my promise as a I slowly continue extending westwards to create Austral Bay 2. Thanks.
All –I’ll bow as gracefully as I can to the pressure here and to the e-mails I have received. For those interested, in the next couple of days I will upload activities that use AI trains made with the default MSTS rolling stock and consists.
Phil

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Sorry - meant "Nick" not Mike"!! Apologies.

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No problems Phil. Looking forward to the activities with AI traffic. Regards, Nick (UK)

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