Use of MS Content

LAST EDITED ON Sep-21-04 AT 07:43 PM (EDT)

I know one of the goals of TM is to be able to import MSTS routes and add-ons. What worries me is that most routes currently available for MS contain a great deal of MS scenery and other MS content. Is Microsoft going to allow that content to be inported into a TM simulator and then distributed? Unless MS has published a statement placeing all their content into the public domain, I think the answer is no. The MSTS EULA prohibits distributing MS content except for track and terrain textures. That is why we have to run a batch file when installing a new route to install the MS content we already have. This could be done also with a TM route provided you already have a legal copy of MSTS **INSTALLED** with all six default routes. Initially, this would cover most everyone, but as time goes on, fewer and fewer people will have MSTS and importing MS content may not be possible.This is something to consider. There may be a lot of work involved in converting a route if the default MS content cannot legally be used.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
(My email is in my profile)Columbia Gorge Route (Phase 2-- On Hold.)

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RE: Use of MS Content, RailDriver TS, Sep-22-04, 04:14 PM, (1) RE: Use of MS Content, muskokaandtahoe, Sep-23-04, 00:20 AM, (2) RE: Use of MS Content, sniper297, Sep-23-04, 02:17 PM, (3) RE: Use of MS Content, calr, Sep-23-04, 04:11 PM, (4) RE: Use of MS Content, sniper297, Sep-23-04, 07:48 PM, (5) RE: Use of MS Content, landnrailroader, Sep-24-04, 12:20 PM, (6) RE: Use of MS Content, TimCourt, Sep-25-04, 10:09 AM, (7) RE: Use of MS Content, sniper297, Sep-25-04, 12:00 PM, (8) RE: Use of MS Content, lnghairedwizard, Sep-25-04, 11:11 PM, (9) RE: Use of MS Content, Railfan727, Oct-01-04, 11:26 AM, (10) RE: Use of MS Content, TimCourt, Oct-01-04, 06:06 PM, (11) RE: Use of MS Content, brooksy, Oct-01-04, 08:32 PM, (12) RE: Use of MS Content, OTTODAD, Oct-06-04, 08:43 PM, (13) RE: Use of MS Content, RailDriver TS, Oct-07-04, 01:11 PM, (14) RE: Use of MS Content, OTTODAD, Oct-09-04, 11:04 AM, (15) RE: Use of MS Content, TimCourt, Oct-09-04, 09:14 PM, (16)

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Cal,Thanks for posting, we did and still do consider this, In fact when we first strated the sim, this topic was specifically addressed In detail.http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID24/4.html
Tim

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Here's the relevant parts of the EULA, italics and bold are my additions to point out the key parts: -----------------begin eula--------------
Editor License. Microsoft Train Simulator (the “Software Product”) contains Activity, Route, Cab and other file editors and tools (collectively, the “Editors”) that allow users to customize the content (e.g. artwork, audio or activity files) accompanying the Software Product (collectively, the “Train Simulator Content”). Users may also use the Editors to modify and add Microsoft Train Simulator functionality to original content (“Original Content”) that has been created with other software programs. Commercial Use. You may use the Editors to modify and add functionality to Original Content, provided the Original Content is not derivative of the Train Simulator Content or other materials found in the Software Product. You may use and/or distribute the Original Content for both personal and/or commercial purposes.
----------------end eula-------------------"Original Content" means anything the user creates on their own using MS and other software tools for use with MSTS.Derrivative means taken from.Seems pretty clear a commercial vendor can redistribute anything they themselves create with the editors but they may not re-distribute anything derrivative of anything that came with or the game cd-roms).FWIW, I see nothing here that allows a commercial vendor to use Kujo track shapes or ground textures. Nada. Zip.So if I were writting a new train sim I'd be darn sure not to reverse engineer and distribute any file that was on those cd-roms.Course what the end user does on their own PC is going to be okay. So in the end somebody can write software that will read and translate MSTS files. But only an end user, not a commercial vendor, can share the results.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
<<new .sig under construction>>

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I suspect if the EULA is gonna be a problem somebody like Mike Simpson will come along with a utility that replaces all the default KUJU shape files with an equivelant TMTS object that has the same dimensions.That said, I really don't care one way or the other, my plan is to start over from scratch anyway. Port Ogden & Northern was extracted on July 7th, 2001, and I'm currently finishing up version 9 and packaging for upload. So I have 3 years work invested in the PO&N - and will be ecstatic to throw it in the trash. Why? Because the PO&N is a hodgepodge Rube Goldberg collection of compromises and kludges to either get around or stay within the limitations and bugs of MSTS. I'm betting that starting over from the very beginning with the TMTS route editor will take less time and be less work than trying to make PO&N as good as it can be starting with the current version.

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Jim, your point is well taken. Most of the MS content is not worth blowing away with a Hi-Cube loaded with C4! If TMTS has equivalent content available that can replace MSTS content during import, that would be great. On the other hand, if the import process could report the MS content that needs replacing and allow the user to pick the replacent, that would be good.The simplest thing would be for MS to place their content in the Public Domain. Then it is a non-issue. Who knows? Someone might improve it!As it says in my sig, Columbia Gorge Phase2 is on hold, waiting to see what comes down the line. Although I think Phase 1 turned out fairly good, importing it into TMTS may result in a significant improvement.Patiently waiting...Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
(My email is in my profile)Columbia Gorge Route (Phase 2-- On Hold.)

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I don't think the content is all that bad, it's that blasted Object Linking and Embedding nonsense that cramps my style.Tim, if it don't violate the NDA, possibly you could tell us what the difference is gonna be. Will the TMTS route editor actually compile the routes for faster framerates? Something similar to the DOOM .wad file or Quake .pak file would be great, load everything into RAM at once instead of this piecemeal swapping of zillions of little files.The way this works, when you fire up MSTS it loads a whole bunch of files just to make the menu selection. Then you select a route and an activity;Loads the envfiles and track database files,
Loads the starting world file plus the surrounding 8 quads,
Loads the \Tiles files for those 9 quads,
Consults the world files for shapes and forest region textures and loads those,
Loads any associated .ws files, consults those to load SMS files, loads .wav files based on SMS files,
Consults the tiles files for terrtex and loads those,
After all the shape files are loaded the matching SD files are loaded and compared with season, weather, and time of day, and the textures are loaded from the corresponding seasonal subfolder.Now you have the ROUTE loaded, or at least the part that the player starts in. For the trains;Activity file is consulted, loose consist list loads all .eng and .wag files within the 9 square area;
Services are loaded and consulted for .con files, which in turn load .eng and .wag files,
All .eng and .wag files consulted for shape and SMS files, then all the files associated with those are loaded.Any suspicion on the part of those with no programming experience that this is an extremely clumsy process is entirely justified, and when you consider that moving the train after starting will repeat the entire process as you drive along, swapping thousands of files in and out of memory, is it any wonder the blasted thing stutters and crashes? For a route developer attempting to make something that looks realistic it's an unholy pain, the more detail you add to the scenery, the more complex you make your activities, the more limitations of MSTS are revealed. Having a high horsepower computer with lots of RAM and a fast hard drive don't help that much, since even then you start stumbling over bugs that wouldn't be there if the main program wasn't a reject from an old Lotus 123 spreadsheet. PO&N9 is 180mb installed, for the activities the trainsets come out to less than 50 megs. But MSTS won't use more than 110 megs of the 1024 megs available, so I get low jerky FPS on anything more than the most basic scenery.

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Although I intend to purchase the PI simulator when it is available and have, like many, signed a NDA with them which I hope results in being asked to do some Beta testing of it, I am continuing with the RMD-4, but that may be my last effort until the new simulator is available simply because if I don't put some effort into my HO Layout, which has been neglected pretty much the last 18 months, my wife will move more aggressively to reclaim the R/W. The RMD-4 has some default items in it, but it will be 75% or greater non-default. The bridges, snowsheds, and special tunnel portals are mine, while most of the structures are by Enocel, Picardi, or Garber and others.J. H. Sullivan

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Hi Jim,We do have our way of doing this but I can't really say right now, all will become apparrent once we have stuff out there for testing.All NDA'd Members WILL be Alpha testing 1st off then will test the ful product although this is likely to be some time yet.Tim

Member of the Royal Guild of Route Builders

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Thanks, Tim, I suspected that info was gonna be classified. I'm not really worried about it, like I told Michael in the "Thanks for the support but" thread, even if you guys were determined to screw up worse than KUJU did it would be impossible, since MSTS was a once in a lifetime freak of nature.Bottom line if you're still taking suggestions tho, don't compromise the program for backwards compatibility. It would be much better for us in the long run to start over from scratch with a really good program than to screw around with limitations carried over from MSTS for the sake of backwards compatibility. Obviously if you CAN import old MSTS content without hobbling the new sim that would be great, but anything that requires "dumbing down" the new sim is a really bad idea.

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My suggestion to the problem of not being able to use the original Kuju route objects is to have PI engineering and all their developers create replacement object that can be named the same is its corresponding Kuju object.Case in point:...there is a default kuju object entitled "refinery" which is nothing but a lowlevel building with some pipes and cyclones on the roof. Not real bad but not real good either.
What I can do is to take my freeware refinery complex route-object that I created and uploaded to train-sim.com, and re-arrange it to have the same footprint as the default kuju refinery and give it the same filename.
This would allow any routes done in msts whether they be default routes such as NEC or custom such as Jim's PO&N, to be transfered to TMTS as the original kuju refinery will be automatically replaced with my much more realistic refinery.
If this can be done with all the default object then not only will we have complete compatibility with all MSTS routes, but when they are imported into TMTS, they will have much improved buildings and scenery over the default msts kuju version.Well, thats my idear and im stickin to it!!!....Bill Bzak aka Longhairedwizardwww.lhwfoundries.com

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What about the multitudes of add-on files that either use a default shape with new textures, or a new shape with default textures? Would those be banned by the EULA too?

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Guys,I think if we look at the big picture here, we would not re distribute original content but merely provide the means for users to convert any of their installed content to run in the new sim, really not much different to opening wordperfect files in MS word for example.This will allow users to use the TMTS engine to run their ex-MSTS routes.

Member of the Royal Guild of Route Builders

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Now that suits me just fine.
Cheers

Nocturnal Flightless Bird

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Hi Tim !Remember what I said in a recent E-Mail to you. It is not just the improved way the Graphics of a Train Sim are handled by it's Graphics Engine under DirectX-9+ which is important, it is also how efficient it will be loading just what is needed by a Session like FS2004 does with a "Flight".The Train Sim loads nothing to start with but displays either a Saved Sessions Menu or a New Session Selection Menu, the player can specify the following from:Route
Starting Point, select it from a Map of the Route.
Player Consist
Season
Weather
Time
Place Static Consists
Place Player drivable Locos/Trains on the Route Map like another Train Sim does.
Communications with Dispatcher, Y/N
One Monitor, or more for other selectable views.
Record a Video of the Session, Y/NAll done ? Now the Train Sim loads the necessaries and nothing else !I don't think that importing converted MSTS Routes will be compatible with that ?Take Care, O t t o.

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Otto,Depends on your idea of Importing methinks, basically you need to do all of the conversions then it becomes a "TMTS" route, there would be nothing to stop contant being loaded on startup except thats not the way we are doing it, we do have a cunning plan however.........Tim

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Hi Tim !> we do have a cunning plan however.........I am certain that PIE-TMTS have more than one of those up their sleeves !!! Take Care, O t t o.

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Otto,You are right, our programmers are pretty good at what they are doing and how they execute issues like this, I am just glad we have them since I would be stuck otherwise!Needless to say it is something we have looked into

Member of the Royal Guild of Route Builders

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