New Version of TrainsZ

A friend of mine told me yesterday that TrainsZ will be coming out with an upgraded program in a couple of months. Looks like it will be out before MSTS2.He said he is really looking foreword to it. The pre-release announcement indicated that it will have working industries. My understanding is that you will be able to set it up so that a train can actually load and unload. Trailers and intermodel containers loaded or unloaded at a facility. Coal unloaded at a power plant and loaded at a mine. WOW!Thought One:
We all know that the people who are working on MSTS2 keep a close eye on the competition. That is good as we get much better programs that way.Thought Two:
Word has it that the Activities for MSTS1 will not work with MSTS2. Most other things such as routes and equipment is said to be compatible. Does this indicate that MSTS2 will have this TraisZ function. It would seem logical given they appear to be working on an operational turn-table.The question of the day:
Will MSTS2 release be pushed back until they can evaluate their TrainsZ new realase and insure that MSTS2 is superior?Love competition!

Newton Kid

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New Version of TrainsZ [View All], Newton Kid, 03:28 PM, Jun-29-03, (0) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, heffed, Jun-29-03, 03:46 PM, (1) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, OTTODAD, Jul-07-03, 07:19 PM, (2) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, IcyFire, Jul-07-03, 07:22 PM, (3) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-08-03, 10:51 PM, (4) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Woozley, Jul-09-03, 00:46 AM, (5) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-09-03, 06:36 AM, (6) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, IcyFire, Jul-09-03, 11:48 AM, (7) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, crow357, Jul-09-03, 03:46 PM, (8) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, crow357, Jul-09-03, 03:59 PM, (9) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Waterbool, Jul-09-03, 05:38 PM, (10) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Vulcan Foundry, Jul-09-03, 09:41 PM, (11) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-10-03, 01:53 AM, (13) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, georgi55_temp, Jul-10-03, 00:39 AM, (12) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Tony_Hilliam, Jul-10-03, 06:24 AM, (14) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, crow357, Jul-10-03, 09:43 AM, (15) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-10-03, 10:23 AM, (17) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, georgi55_temp, Jul-10-03, 01:35 PM, (19) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-12-03, 11:18 AM, (44) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-10-03, 10:21 AM, (16) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, buzzbenz, Jul-10-03, 11:36 AM, (18) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, crow357, Jul-10-03, 02:42 PM, (20) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-11-03, 00:53 AM, (29) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, shadowr434, Jul-11-03, 10:35 PM, (37) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, MRRextreme, Jul-10-03, 03:45 PM, (21) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, crow357, Jul-10-03, 05:11 PM, (22) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Fastruck, Jul-10-03, 05:11 PM, (23) Use of UP in MSTS 2, dgauci, Jul-13-03, 02:25 PM, (66) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Tony_Hilliam, Jul-10-03, 05:36 PM, (24) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-10-03, 06:12 PM, (25) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, TonyHilliam, Jul-10-03, 10:00 PM, (26) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, heffed, Jul-10-03, 10:55 PM, (27) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-11-03, 00:49 AM, (28) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, heffed, Jul-13-03, 05:29 AM, (54) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 10:08 AM, (56) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, heffed, Jul-13-03, 05:40 PM, (75) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 09:01 PM, (87) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, heffed, Jul-13-03, 10:08 PM, (94) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-13-03, 10:38 AM, (62) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-11-03, 10:36 AM, (32) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Tony_Hilliam, Jul-11-03, 04:20 PM, (35) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-12-03, 10:59 AM, (42) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-12-03, 02:28 PM, (46) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, heffed, Jul-13-03, 05:05 AM, (53) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 09:59 AM, (55) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, heffed, Jul-13-03, 04:47 PM, (73) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-13-03, 05:21 PM, (74) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, LawrenceKellie, Jul-13-03, 06:32 PM, (79) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 09:23 PM, (90) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, heffed, Jul-13-03, 06:51 PM, (83) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-13-03, 07:19 PM, (85) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, buzzbenz, Jul-11-03, 05:55 AM, (31) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, buzzbenz, Jul-11-03, 03:50 PM, (34) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, VRfan, Jul-13-03, 03:41 PM, (68) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, cn_bayview, Jul-13-03, 04:14 PM, (71) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Woozley, Jul-14-03, 05:22 AM, (98) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-14-03, 03:43 PM, (103) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-11-03, 01:02 AM, (30) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, crow357, Jul-11-03, 03:22 PM, (33) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, georgi55_temp, Jul-11-03, 05:23 PM, (36) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, LawrenceKellie, Jul-12-03, 01:40 AM, (38) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, kevarc, Jul-12-03, 01:46 AM, (39) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-12-03, 03:26 AM, (40) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-12-03, 10:24 AM, (41) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, thomil, Jul-12-03, 03:29 PM, (47) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-12-03, 03:45 PM, (48) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Vulcan Foundry, Jul-12-03, 04:29 PM, (49) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, buzzbenz, Jul-13-03, 03:27 PM, (67) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, heffed, Jul-13-03, 05:53 PM, (76) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, buzzbenz, Jul-13-03, 06:17 PM, (78) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, LawrenceKellie, Jul-13-03, 06:37 PM, (81) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, buzzbenz, Jul-13-03, 06:52 PM, (84) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 09:27 PM, (91) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, buzzbenz, Jul-13-03, 09:54 PM, (92) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-14-03, 10:57 AM, (100) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, heffed, Jul-13-03, 10:02 PM, (93) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 10:37 PM, (95) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, heffed, Jul-13-03, 10:55 PM, (96) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-14-03, 11:01 AM, (101) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 09:17 PM, (89) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, LawrenceKellie, Jul-13-03, 03:55 PM, (70) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, buzzbenz, Jul-13-03, 06:03 PM, (77) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, LawrenceKellie, Jul-13-03, 06:35 PM, (80) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, georgi55_temp, Jul-12-03, 11:07 AM, (43) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-12-03, 11:26 AM, (45) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, georgi55_temp, Jul-12-03, 11:44 PM, (50) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 03:46 PM, (69) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, liberal, Jul-13-03, 00:00 AM, (51) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, csxac44_69, Jul-13-03, 00:50 AM, (52) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 10:14 AM, (58) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, csxac44_69, Jul-13-03, 01:19 PM, (65) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Xerxes, Jul-13-03, 10:11 AM, (57) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 10:17 AM, (59) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Xerxes, Jul-13-03, 10:30 AM, (61) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-13-03, 10:48 AM, (63) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 11:41 AM, (64) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-13-03, 04:42 PM, (72) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-13-03, 10:27 AM, (60) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Newton Kid, Jul-13-03, 06:43 PM, (82) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-13-03, 07:35 PM, (86) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-13-03, 09:14 PM, (88) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, NW_611, Jul-13-03, 10:59 PM, (97) So.... TS2... what are the definite features?, Prjindigo, Jul-14-03, 09:14 AM, (99) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, MRRextreme, Jul-14-03, 12:27 PM, (102) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, chucksc, Jul-14-03, 04:01 PM, (104) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, Prjindigo, Jul-14-03, 08:53 PM, (105) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-15-03, 00:36 AM, (106) RE: New Version of TrainsZ, dgauci, Jul-15-03, 00:41 AM, (107) Sales and Publicity, Prjindigo, Jul-15-03, 03:49 AM, (108)

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>The question of the day:
>Will MSTS2 release be pushed back until they can evaluate
>their TrainsZ new realase and insure that MSTS2 is superior?
>
>Love competition! I doubt it. The date has already been pushed back a bit, and chances are that it might happen again.But I doubt they would put off a release to see what Trainz comes up with. At that point in development, it wouldn't be very easy to do much in the way of major additions.But yes, competition is a good thing. Scroll down the forum a bit and you'll see a Trainz representative saying that competition can only make both products better. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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KUJU / MSTS-2 will have a job on their hands competing with this quality of scenery graphics TRAINZ has up their sleeves as well as all sorts of other functionalities absent in MSTS.Got a feeling it's going to be a long wait ! O t t o

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Hey guys, Let us not forget about RailRoad tycoon 3

Shawn Kenselaar, shawnssk@yahoo.com
Screen Shot Forum Mod; Repainter for TKW & YLW
The NYO&W is Gone, But never forgotten!!!
NYC PRR NH=PC*CR/NS,CSX=PRR,NYC?UP

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This is a very thinly disguised "pimp" for Tranz!
Why don't you guys get your own forum and go there?
Oh wait you have one...
But you'd rather troll over here in MSTS land.....
Keep it up and we'll go pee all over your forum....
I love it a forum for discussing the coming version of MSTS and the Auran Trolls come in here and discuss THEIR new product.....
Free advertising I guess....
To answer your question I doubt if MS changes one thing in MSTS 2 because of Trainz... And based on World Wide sales comparisons I doubt very much they'll change their delivery date at all....
At least not because of Trainz....
They could care less because Trainz is no threat to them marketwise no matter what the Lads down under would like to sell you...But if you said that Kuju is going broke and they need the cash then that is another story.... LOL!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>And based on World Wide sales
>comparisons Chuck - could you point us to these figures - I'm keen to see them.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-03 AT 06:42 AM (EDT)

Begone with you Trainz Troll!
LOL!Look at the annual reports for Microsoft and Auran....Bill could give MSTS away for quite some time......MS has had a history of absorbing losses on a product until they control or have significant market penetration.... Think SQL Server, IIS, MS Office ad naseum! Can Auran hang with them? In all probability MS has a market plan and they will execute it no matter who else is in the target market....That's what Billy does....In all probability he won't equal Trainz' features 100% either...
Most likely 80-90% and use his marketing Juggernaut to overcome it....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Xbox too, MS loses cash with each unit sold

Shawn Kenselaar, shawnssk@yahoo.com
Screen Shot Forum Mod; Repainter for TKW & YLW
The NYO&W is Gone, But never forgotten!!!
NYC PRR NH=PC*CR/NS,CSX=PRR,NYC?UP

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Hey, if I could actually make an activity in Trainz, I'd delete MSTS and throw my CD's away (well maybe not..heh heh). The graphics are outstanding... the sounds are great, you can actually create a route. The view controls are fantastic. The only thing MSTS has going for it is the easy activity creator.Disclaimer: This is only my opinion.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-03 AT 03:59 PM (EDT)

Man I'll prolly get flamed hard for this, but I just read something over at the Trainz forum that made me salivate quite heavily....."Some of you are aware that I am currently at Auran after receiving an invitation from Greg Lane to be involved from a scripting point of view.Each day I will be posting on what has happened during the day to allow you to see the new features and groundbreaking development that has gone into this remarkable version of Trainz.Arriving at Auran on Monday, I was immediately into meetings with the different teams working on the project to gain an understanding of the direction that TRS2004 will be taking us. A two hour briefing from the team had my head spinning – this is not an upgrade; it’s a whole new product from the Jet engine up!An interesting chat with Dave in the Jet team and I was gaining an understanding of the new features in Jet 2, the engine under TRS2004. For those of you that have high-end graphics cards, Jet 2 now takes even more advantage of your card delivering increased performance – but more on that later. A list of scripting issues and feature requests as long as my arm were up for discussion with Chris, and I’m happy to report that many of the annoying script bugs are gone. Most scripters know the ones: Junctions firing prematurely on long trains, deletion of AI’s at night causing crashes, and my pet peeve – AI trains stopping two hundred meters away from a red signal. All these issues and more have been overcome. In fact, I sat with Chris while he delved into the Trainz source code and changed the AI-red signal interaction and we repeatedly threw AI’s at red signals until it was just right: AI’s will now stop a few meters before a red signal in a nice, controlled manner!!Graphics in TRS2004 are fantastic – especially at night! Signals can be seen clearly and brightly, no more “ground hopping” from the loco headlight – it just smoothly illuminates the track in front of you. It also illuminates trees, buildings and other objects! Perhaps the most intriguing (and powerful) feature of TRS2004 are the new industries that enable anyone, and I do mean anyone, to create challenging activities on their layouts. This took me a while to fully comprehend, but once I realized what was available and how it worked … jaw dropping!Different industries that will ship with TRS2004 have built in scripts that create intelligent, fully interactive industries that are dependent on each other. This is hard to describe in words, but here goes! I created a map and placed a coalmine, power station and refinery on it. The coal mine produces coal, that the power station needs to operate. The coal mine however requires diesel to run its’ generators. So, by linking these industries up with rail, I can move from industry to industry what each requires. Ok, this sounds simple, but, add in another 10 different industries (Sea port, Airport, Lumber mill etc) and it becomes very challenging keeping it all running. Place 4 or 5 trains out on the line moving loads around and the challenge is to move it all to the right place on time. In fact, Greg Lane came by a while ago to talk to me about something and I, ummm, didn’t really have time to talk! “Greg, can’t you see I’ve got a railroad to keep operating here?”. He shuffled away and left me to sort out a cross on single track between a lumber train heading to the port before the ship departed and a coal train in a real rush to get to the power station before my little town and industries were plunged into darkness! Don’t know how to script? Who cares – you can make your own using all the interactive industries. Hey, even had passengers on the station waiting for the service behind me as I blew through in notch 8 to the port with my load of timber trailing behind me.Well, I’ve rambled on enough for today, but will be back again tomorrow for the next installment. Someone has just set some steam locomotive sounds loose in the office and they sound awesome!!Cheers
Greg (Shutter)"

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GRRRRRR

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I really don't give a rip in hell for what Trainz has or does now or in the future. This is THE MSTS 2 FORUM..THE MSTS 2 FORUM..not the Trainz forum. So take your post were it belongs...the Trainz Forum..that is.If I want to hear what the Brisbane Boys are up to with Trainz then I will visit the Trainz Forum. I'm pretty sure you would not like it if I kept popping up with MSTS stuff all the time in YOUR FORUM !

Models currently building:
Queensland Rail 1300 Class
Queensland Rail Diesel Tilt Train
Tasrail ZC Class
Tasrail Z/ZA/ZB Classes
Tasrail D/DQ/DC Classes

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Well I guess it's time for me to write my new review about MSTS2 in the Trainz forum, they should appreciate it equally as well.
NOT!!!

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-10-03 AT 00:43 AM (EDT)

Some people cannot see that the person who made this post
has written MSTS2 many times and this post IS related to MSTS.
(He mentioned Trainz 2 times, MSTS2 6 times and MSTS1 1 time)

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Here we go again - I see the return of flame wars about to commence. Can I suggest that supporters of Trainz and or MSTS keep discussions or comparisons about both products to the General forum, not on the specialized forums. MSTS 2 topics here, Trainz topics on the Nels Trainz forum or the official Trainz forums. The funny thing is that posting a reply to this simply keeps the thread running - is there a lock thread function available to moderators? If so, perhaps this thread could be locked.CheersTony

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LOL... it always makes me laugh at how some people are so anal about the forums. Lighten up boys. I for one appreciate it when someone tells me about a cool feature in some other sim, be it for trains or planes or whatever. Heh.

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>LOL... it always makes me laugh at how some people are so
>anal about the forums. Lighten up boys. I for one
>appreciate it when someone tells me about a cool feature in
>some other sim, be it for trains or planes or whatever. No one likes a troll, and that's all you posts in this specific forum qualify as.

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>No one likes a troll, and that's all you posts in this
>specific forum qualify as. Well yes, no one but some guys around here.
Newton Kid brought up a good discussion about release date of the two most awaited games for train fans.
What happens? chucksc jumps in and starts a troll, then you go and blame that to Trainz users.
It's pretty obvious that Newton Kid prefers MSTS or does not have Trainz at all
since he misspelled its name as Trainsz and it wasn't only once.
Still, Trainz users are to blame.

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>Still, Trainz users are to blame. Works for me Georgi!
LOL!
Sorry couldn't resist you gave me too easy a target!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>Here we go again - I see the return of flame wars about to
>commence. What you see is the return of the Trainz evangelicals who think the best way to promote Trainz is to ram their views down everyone else's throats no matter what. Marketing by bludgeoning your potential customers over the head. Constantly badgering people and inappropriately cross posting message threads doesn't win customers over, it just greatly annoys. I do respect the Trainz folks, I don't post MSTS propaganda in their forums -- we just ask for the same respect in the MSTS specific forums like this one. You imply that you don't want to see a return of the flame wars, but you and your minions are single handely doing everything in your collective powers to instigate them again. Does apparent concern for your products sales really justify publicity at any cost, even if it's bad publicity? Enough already.

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I'm probably gonna get the fire burning hotter to Bad publicity is something i think that Auran themselves can be considered guilty of. TWICE, specifically, once with the RailDriver thing, once with the whole MSTS2 and Trainz 2004 "un-biased review".Consider this: even the supposedly "all we want is your money, give it to us now" Microsoft's product cycle is about 2 yrs. Meaning that once about every two years, a new version of the product is released. I think about it - Flight Sim, Train Sim, Windows, Office, ALL are on a 2-yr product cycle. Now consider this - with Trainz 2004, that will keep Auran on a ONE YEAR product cycle. (HECK! Even my older PC, now almost 2-yrs old, is not yet completely obsolete!) MS and Kuju also get blasted about never speaking to anyone. Well, i consider silence better than lies... Auran said in their forums, viewable by the public, that Raildriver support for the original Trainz was coming very soon. That was back in Feb, when Trainz was just BARELY over ONE YEAR old. Well, it never happened. UTC or bust for anyone with a RailDriver. THAT ticked me off. Never once did i even hear a "Sorry, we changed our minds" or "Sorry, it is not economical to do so". Nope. Just said they were gonna have one very soon for those of us who did not spend the dosh for a new version of a product we'd barely had a year, then nothing more...
The review of Trainz 2004 and MSTS2 they posted ticked me off as well. When they said about "FEATURES THAT WE HAD IN THE ORIGINAL TRAINZ" - well, guess what? Activites/Scenarios were NOT in the original Trainz. FREE repainting of equipment is NOT in the original Trainz. Both of THOSE features WERE in the original MSTS! Yet you don't hear Kuju making snide little remarks.
And before to many of the, as dgauci put it, "Trainz Evangelicals" try to EVEN say anything, THIS IS FACT FOLKS!!!! Auran publicly made statements they never followed through on! That ain't a good way to do business, ESPECIALLY when you ARE entering DIRECT competition with a Microsoft product!Sorry all, just still REALLY ticked off about this... Ok, rant over... See, Don't bring Trainz into MSTS forums! LOL!(And for the official record, i DO own BOTH MSTS and Trainz)------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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I'm not a troll. I'm a really nice guy that ran across a cool story about a train sim, a subject I thought other train simmers would enjoy. You hateful people need to take a chill pill.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-03 AT 01:18 AM (EDT)

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They might have enjoyed it in the General forum where it belonged crow but not in the MSTS2 forum.Frank Roberts
Fed Ex Freight
P&D Driver

"Sometimes I dream about being carried off by a big giant squirrel. Does that make me a nut?"

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<<Activites/Scenarios were NOT in the original Trainz. FREE repainting of equipment is NOT in the original Trainz. Both of THOSE features WERE in the original MSTS! >>Thank you for pointing this out. The original Trainz could NOT support large routes and did NOT have latitude/longitude. Even though the software came out AFTER MSTS, it did not have the features BUZZ describes. I actually have enjoyed Trainz but the exaggeration of the capabilities of the software is very irritating.

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Whatever... I can see that a free and clear discussion of ideas is impossible on this board. I'll quit trying to engage your minds and leave you all to your little hovels.

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yeah but,
Union pacific singed with aruan for the trainz 2004 to use there logos , locomotive plans lajit would love to see that in MSTS2 but I've heard they wouldn't do it to MSTS beacuse of M$ has ask for it and UP turn them down because Aruan allredey sign with them and part of the deal was to not let MSTS2 have Union pacfic stuff so trainz will be the only one and if they find Union pacifc stuff used in MSTS2 they will take the person who made it to court for millenium copyright laws . If the person asked for it I'm shure they want money for it useage
and payware people have to give them a pice of the sell of the product if they build and sales a addon with a Union pacif logo or locomotive. so people with MSTS have it bad when araun cheats to stay ahead of Microsoft.

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I wouldn't worry about whether we can use UP rolling stock in MSTS2. This is a short clip from Dekosoft, makers of very high quality add-ons for MSTS."We're just days away from the launch of the Union Pacific Super Set. This officially licensed product rolls out our best four axle and six axle locos plus a string of new freight cars to match! "Since Dekosoft is releasing officially licensed UP rolling stock for MSTS and MSTS2 we will be covered.

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Ah well, I tried to stop the flame wars from starting, but even so, some people decided it is better to attack Auran and Trainz rather than keep the topic to Newton Kid's original simple question "will the MSTS2 be pushed back".We now have people making up some wonderful stories about Auran holding back Raildriver support for 12 months. Ask Mike Hetheringtonm President of PI engineering for the facts about Trainz and Raildriver support (try info@raildriver.com). We had beta drivers available the day we got our first Raildriver and have worked closely with PI to ensure that Trainz support was the best possible. We actually rewrote parts of the Trainz code to make the system work better with Raildriver.Next, Auran is attacked for updating their product to include feedback and feature requests from customers - amazing! So now customer support is an offence? I fail to see how a 2 year upgrade cycle (it will be 2 and a half) with one patch is a better system than constant improvement (including several free Service Packs with additional free content). If you can't afford an upgrade once a year, just buy on the two year cycle - there is no penalty for not buying one edition. The net effect is that those who do upgrade annually benefit greatly (there are few complaints from those who have upgraded as the product is now so much better).Next, my unbiased E3 report is attacked as false and misleading. Here is the direct quote referred to : "I felt that the guys had listened to the feedback from their customers and were working on putting those features into the game (even if most of these features are already available in Trainz)". Not that Trainz had ALL the features but MOST (and note the current tense "ARE" in Trainz).So guys, you've managed to show that once again your intolerance of Trainz is an over-reaction to some misguided belief that there nees to be a winner and a loser in some train sim war. I speak regularly to the guys at Microsoft and we agree that competition is good for the genre and good for the customer. Trainz has evolved over the years to respond to valid criticisms and shortcomings (such as including activities). Microsoft has included some of the cool features from Trainz. Great - train fans are the winners guys.So there is my rant over. Meanwhile, I will continue to respond to attacks upon Auran's credibility and honesty in this thread and recommend to both "sides" that product comparisons should be dealt with in the General forum.Tony Hilliam
Director Auran

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-10-03 AT 06:14 PM (EDT)

Tony,
The you are way off base here...
Any posting of Trainz or Trainz/MSTS comparisons are OT in a forum CLEARLY LABELED MSTS or MSTS2... How would you like Bill Gates to start posting in your forums... The vast majority of us are respecting the "gentleman's agreement" not to cross post into your forum. Historically the lopsided balance of the cross posting has been done by the Trainz folks. If you are so eager to tout the virtues of Trainz then you need to speak to Nels about establishing the equivelant forum for YOUR use!
On a personal level I find your behavior in accusing one of my Modelers, Buzz Benz (who had almost convinced me to branch NALW out into providing Freeware Content for Trainz)of lieing, and IMHO that is what you did with your snide remarks about raildriver support, offensive and unprofessional for a corporate officer of a payware company! As far as I am concerned if you are typical of the Trainz personnel and the constant evangelizing on competetor's forums is typical of what you consider "marketing" then Hell will freeze over before my organization has $hit to do with providing Trainz content.You people want a pi$$ing contest! You just got one! With me!Have a nice day!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Hi Chuck. Apart from issues of Auran's credibility I totally agree - Trainz comments shouldn't be made on this forum.Tony

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I don't know. I don't really see how product comparisons or queries detract from the forum. People just seem to get violent for some reason. I think there's more than enough room for both. I guess that's just me. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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>I don't know. I don't really see how product comparisons or
>queries detract from the forum.
>
>People just seem to get violent for some reason. I think
>there's more than enough room for both.
>
>I guess that's just me. Jeff, you'd have to go back in the forum archives here to the fall of 2001 before Trainz even was released. We were constantly bombarded with posts telling us how completely worthless MSTS was in comparison to the new unreleased product called Trainz by some of the same posters in this thread. A lot of us just got tired of the constant bashing from a product that hadn't even been released yet. Then when it was released the same posters made it their scorched earth jihad to convert all of us infidel MSTS users.That's why my tolerance level has been worn down, I just want to be left alone to enjoy the sim of my choice. To each his own.

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I can understand getting a low tolerance level from Trainz fans bashing MSTS, but this post wasn't bashing MSTS.The original poster just mentioned that he heard Trainz had some cool features, and was wondering if MSTS 2 might be delayed to make sure it outshines Trainz. As simple as that. No bashing, no evangelizing, nothing. Just speculation about M$/KUJU actions in the future regarding the Trainz release.Then Otto made a post about Trainz's graphics, but as we all know, Otto isn't an MSTS basher. He's a prominent supporter!Then Chuck pops in with some crazed logic that the post was some sort of advertisement for Trainz or something. Then of course everybody starts bickering that it's an off topic post, aren't those Trainz people awful for coming here, leave us MSTS users alone, etc... And it went downhill from there.So yes, I can understand a low tolerance, but it seems perhaps the tolerance filter is set a bit too aggressive?I agree that any superiority comments of either platform should stay in it's respective forums, but this post simply wasn't that.-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-03 AT 10:24 AM (EDT)

>I can understand getting a low tolerance level from Trainz
>fans bashing MSTS, but this post wasn't bashing MSTS.
>Good of you to acknowledge that!>The original poster just mentioned that he heard Trainz had
>some cool features, and was wondering if MSTS 2 might be
>delayed to make sure it outshines Trainz.
>And it could also be interpreted the way I interpreted it!
Lots of people did, look at the numbers of people who supported my position.>As simple as that. No bashing, no evangelizing, nothing.
>Just speculation about M$/KUJU actions in the future
>regarding the Trainz release.
>That all followed...
Read all the rest of the posts...
Not just The original Posters and Mine...
Here's my favorite by a Trainz Troll,
http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=151&forum=DCForumID18&omm=9&viewmode=threaded>Then Otto made a post about Trainz's graphics, but as we all
>know, Otto isn't an MSTS basher. He's a prominent supporter!
>
>Then Chuck pops in with some crazed logic that the post was
>some sort of advertisement for Trainz or something. Then of
>course everybody starts bickering that it's an off topic
>post, aren't those Trainz people awful for coming here,
>leave us MSTS users alone, etc... And it went downhill from
>there.
>Yeah, I've been hanging around LK too much and have adapted his logic... Not! Here is what I originally posted;"This is a very thinly disguised "pimp" for Trainz!
Why don't you guys get your own forum and go there?
Oh wait you have one...
But you'd rather troll over here in MSTS land.....
Keep it up and we'll go pee all over your forum....

I love it a forum for discussing the coming version of MSTS and the Auran Trolls come in here and discuss THEIR new product.....
Free advertising I guess...."I guess that's really contorted logic and provocative in your own Politically Correct World?And if you knew any of the history of this contentious subject then you would know that the original post was not an uncommon method used by the Trainz Jihaddists to introduce their favorite subject into an MSTS thread.
Why doesn't or hasn't Newton Kid come back on, especially after my original post where I said he was basically OT, and say something like "Oh no, I just wanted to <insert what Jeff said here>"?????
That in itself is a flag that this whole thread was a drive by shooting by the Trainz nutz! Think about it Jeff! If I'm paranoid then so is the vast majority of the MSTS community.. I'm just a little more vocal about it than most.>So yes, I can understand a low tolerance, but it seems
>perhaps the tolerance filter is set a bit too aggressive?
>Nope all he had to do was jump back in and say, Not me Chief!>I agree that any superiority comments of either platform
>should stay in it's respective forums, but this post simply
>wasn't that. But the rest certainly were! Or do you dispute that too?
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>>I can understand getting a low tolerance level from Trainz
>>fans bashing MSTS, but this post wasn't bashing MSTS.
>>
>
>Good of you to acknowledge that! Thanks.>>The original poster just mentioned that he heard Trainz had
>>some cool features, and was wondering if MSTS 2 might be
>>delayed to make sure it outshines Trainz.
>>
>
>And it could also be interpreted the way I interpreted it!
>Lots of people did, look at the numbers of people who
>supported my position. Supported your position, or jumped on the bandwagon after it got rolling?>>As simple as that. No bashing, no evangelizing, nothing.
>>Just speculation about M$/KUJU actions in the future
>>regarding the Trainz release.
>>
>
>That all followed...
>Read all the rest of the posts...
>Not just The original Posters and Mine...
>Here's my favorite by a Trainz Troll,
>http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=151&forum=DCForumID18&omm=9&viewmode=threaded I never said some of the replies weren't trolling. However, trolls most like to do their thing if provoked. You have to admit they were given ammunition. Simple forum survival technique. Don't feed the trolls!

>>Then Otto made a post about Trainz's graphics, but as we all
>>know, Otto isn't an MSTS basher. He's a prominent supporter!
>>
>>Then Chuck pops in with some crazed logic that the post was
>>some sort of advertisement for Trainz or something. Then of
>>course everybody starts bickering that it's an off topic
>>post, aren't those Trainz people awful for coming here,
>>leave us MSTS users alone, etc... And it went downhill from
>>there.
>>
>
>Yeah, I've been hanging around LK too much and have adapted
>his logic... Not!
>
>Here is what I originally posted;
>
>"This is a very thinly disguised "pimp" for Trainz!
>Why don't you guys get your own forum and go there?
>Oh wait you have one...
>But you'd rather troll over here in MSTS land.....
>Keep it up and we'll go pee all over your forum....
>
>I love it a forum for discussing the coming version of MSTS
>and the Auran Trolls come in here and discuss THEIR new
>product.....
>Free advertising I guess...."
>
>I guess that's really contorted logic and provocative in
>your own Politically Correct World? Thanks for the repeat. I read it the first time.And yes. That is contorted logic. And not just in my supposed "politically correct world". I saw an inncocent post, (which apparently I failed to read with my trusty Captain Crunch Decoder Ring) which received a not so subtle barbed reply. Political correctness aside... How can this not attract further undesirable replies? How do you expect the trolls to act if you tell them, "Keep it up and we'll go pee all over your forum.... "?That reply guarantees a trollish response.>And if you knew any of the history of this contentious
>subject then you would know that the original post was not
>an uncommon method used by the Trainz Jihaddists to
>introduce their favorite subject into an MSTS thread.
>Why doesn't or hasn't Newton Kid come back on, especially
>after my original post where I said he was basically OT, and
>say something like "Oh no, I just wanted to <insert what
>Jeff said here>"?????
>That in itself is a flag that this whole thread was a drive
>by shooting by the Trainz nutz! Or possibly he doesn't come around the forums often? Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply around here? Or more likely, he's afraid he'll get blasted no matter what he says.>Think about it Jeff! If I'm
>paranoid then so is the vast majority of the MSTS
>community.. I'm just a little more vocal about it than most.
>
>>So yes, I can understand a low tolerance, but it seems
>>perhaps the tolerance filter is set a bit too aggressive?
>>
>
>Nope all he had to do was jump back in and say, Not me
>Chief! Come on Chuck. You have to admit that if this guy were indeed a troll, he would have to be the most inept example of the species. If his post was intended to inflame the MSTS crowd, It only came across as a luke-warm breeze. Talk about failing miserably! I can't imagine that if his intention was controversy, that post was the best he could come up with.Or better yet, maybe that was his intention. He's just extremely bad at what he does. Imagine the elation he must feel right now to have created such a stir! He is big time now!I can hardly wait for his "Wouldn't MSTS 2 be great if it supported Macintosh too???" post. That will surely bag all comers. (Nobody has ever accused me of lack of sarcasm)>>I agree that any superiority comments of either platform
>>should stay in it's respective forums, but this post simply
>>wasn't that.
>
>But the rest certainly were! Or do you dispute that too? No dispute on the replies. But as I said, I don't think things would have escalated if the post was taken at face value instead of some subversive mind control tactic intended to hypnotise everyone to run out and buy Trainz. Or at the very least bow to it's superiority?It's simple logic. Trolls don't hang around if their trolling efforts fall on deaf ears. Whether the original post was a disguised troll attempt or not, several people in this forum certainly gave at least a troll or two exactly what they wanted. As the wise Eddie Murphy once said while playing the "fart game" as a young kid, "That was a good one. My mouth was open!"
-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-03 AT 09:38 PM (EDT)

Changed my mind about this post!
Not worth my time to argue with you Jeff!Have a nice day!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>Changed my mind about this post!
>Not worth my time to argue with you Jeff! I see... You finally bow to my greatness. <- Note the "winking" smiley denoting humor.>Have a nice day! Thanks Chuck! Same to you and yours.
-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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>I can understand getting a low tolerance level from Trainz
>fans bashing MSTS, but this post wasn't bashing MSTS.
>
>The original poster just mentioned that he heard Trainz had
>some cool features, and was wondering if MSTS 2 might be
>delayed to make sure it outshines Trainz.
>
>As simple as that. No bashing, no evangelizing, nothing.
>Just speculation about M$/KUJU actions in the future
>regarding the Trainz release. Chuck's right, no offense, but it isn't like I haven't seen the same pattern time and time again for the last 2 years. If this had happened in a vacuum the reaction's may have been very different, but we do have a long history of these kind of posts. Things have been quiet for many months with people keeping their posts in their respective areas. We don't need anyone instigating this all over again which based on knowledge of the past it appears could be.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-03 AT 10:40 AM (EDT)

>I don't know. I don't really see how product comparisons or
>queries detract from the forum.
>
>People just seem to get violent for some reason. I think
>there's more than enough room for both.
>
>I guess that's just me. I agree Jeff it must be you.... LOL!Seriously, Re-read the original post which was IMHO a recitation of all the neat features promised for Trainz lebenty seven eleven or what ever its called and how will Microsoft ever catch up to Auran and how much will they delay the release of MSTS2 to reverse engineer Trainz ad naseum! And this is all in the MSTS2 forum (Trainz has its own forum - and some one please show me the post over there that says MSTS2 is coming out and how long will it take Auran to reverse engineer it to catch up, please) If that isn't skating on the edge of product libel and a thinly disguised shill I'm the queen of the may!Then a Director of Auran, very unprofessionally IMO I might add, steps in and accuses one of the most respected modelers in the Freeware Train-Sim community, previously an advocate for Trainz with in our Organization (NALW) and the Senior Modeler at arguably the most successful, active Freeware MSTS organization of misrepresenting the truth with out providing any thing to back up in his/Tony's allegations after he/Buzz recites his opinion of Auran's support and why he was changing his opinion of Trainz and you wonder why some of us get all exercised at the apparent Telemarketer/Spammer Scorched Earth marketing approach, which IMHO resembles a JIHAD, used by Auran's proxies on this and other forums and you might get an inkling of why we want them to be segregated from the rest of us...You all have a nice day now!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>
>Seriously, Re-read the original post which was IMHO a
>recitation of all the neat features promised for Trainz
>lebenty seven eleven or what ever its called and how will
>Microsoft ever catch up to Auran and how much will they
>delay the release of MSTS2 to reverse engineer Trainz ad
>naseum! And this is all in the MSTS2 forum Chuck, I wasn't going to post again as my posts, whilst trying to clam things down, seem to stir things up. However, I believe your comments here about Newton Kid's original post are out of line. The Kid (I guess he is a young guy) states in his last line that he hopes MSTS will be superior. He is hoping that competition from Trainz will push Microsoft to do better. Please consider Newton Kid's feelings here - he's a young MSTS fan hoping for a better MSTS 2 and you attack him for asking this on an MSTS 2 forum. (Other posts I agree shouldn't be here, but the original post imho is valid)(Trainz has its
>own forum - and some one please show me the post over there
>that says MSTS2 is coming out and how long will it take
>Auran to reverse engineer it to catch up, please) If that
>isn't skating on the edge of product libel and a thinly
>disguised shill I'm the queen of the may! Well I just did a quick search and MSTS has been mentioned in at least 3010 threads on our forums. There was even a link posted to this forum a few hours ago. The point is, competition is good and train fans will be the winners. Flame wars only get people upset.>
>Then a Director of Auran, very unprofessionally IMO I might
>add, steps in and accuses one of the most respected modelers
>in the Freeware Train-Sim community, previously an advocate
>for Trainz with in our Organization (NALW) and the Senior
>Modeler at arguably the most successful, active Freeware
>MSTS organization of misrepresenting the truth with out
>providing any thing to back up in his/Tony's allegations
>after he/Buzz recites his opinion of Auran's support and why
>he was changing his opinion of Trainz and you wonder why
>some of us get all exercised at the apparent
>Telemarketer/Spammer Scorched Earth marketing approach,
>which IMHO resembles a JIHAD, used by Auran's proxies on
>this and other forums and you might get an inkling of why we
>want them to be segregated from the rest of us...
>
So now Auran is compared to terrorists and Muslim extremists on a JIHAD, and I thought we were making a train sim. C'mon Chuck lighten up a little. In respect to Buzz, I confess I did misread his post about Raildriver. We provided support for UTC as soon as we could (which was my point) and to tell the truth, I didn't even know that we hadn't yet released a version to our Trainz users. I know PI Engineering haven't been pressing us for a Trainz 1 version, and I haven't seen any requests on our forums for a Trainz 1 version either. If Buzz would like to get a few requests together and write to our helpdesk, then we'll certainly look at releasing a Trainz 1 raildriver patch. Now, hopefully the personal attacks can stop, I won't have to risk my reputation once again being questioned, and we can all get on with the business of making better simulations. Please!
>You all have a nice day now! You too Chuck.>
>
>Chuck Schneider
>(Virtual) CEO
>North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works
>

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-03 AT 11:13 AM (EDT)

>
>Chuck, I wasn't going to post again as my posts, whilst
>trying to clam things down, seem to stir things up. However,
>I believe your comments here about Newton Kid's original
>post are out of line. The Kid (I guess he is a young guy)
>states in his last line that he hopes MSTS will be superior.
>He is hoping that competition from Trainz will push
>Microsoft to do better. Please consider Newton Kid's
>feelings here - he's a young MSTS fan hoping for a better
>MSTS 2 and you attack him for asking this on an MSTS 2
>forum. (Other posts I agree shouldn't be here, but the
>original post imho is valid)
>I think he's actually 47 years old! LOL!
Seriously I don't know about his real age but the sensitivity among the MSTS community has been seriously raised by the misdirected enthusiasm of certain members of the Trainz community who consider it their god given right to evangelize the MSTS community no matter what the feelings of said community are... Kinda like Jehovah's Witnesses proselytizing in Mecca! And about as well received too!>(Trainz has its
>>own forum - and some one please show me the post over there
>>that says MSTS2 is coming out and how long will it take
>>Auran to reverse engineer it to catch up, please) If that
>>isn't skating on the edge of product libel and a thinly
>>disguised shill I'm the queen of the may!
>
>Well I just did a quick search and MSTS has been mentioned
>in at least 3010 threads on our forums. There was even a
>link posted to this forum a few hours ago. The point is,
>competition is good and train fans will be the winners.
>Flame wars only get people upset.
>Hmm you being a marketing guy you wouldn't be shading the numbers a skosh would you??? I did my own search here on train-sim and Trainz is only mentioned in 435 active threads including the Trainz Forum.... That's a variance of almost an order of magnitude! Or do you mean on Auran's boards?
Well that is a completely different story isn't it. It would appear based on that data that Trainz users are 10 times more fixated on MSTS then MSTS users care about discussing trains... Sounds like the undersized johnson syndrome to me! (Kinda like a perverted stockholm syndrome) That also means it's your Trainz loyalists discussing MSTS constantly... Not us going there to proselytize them!
Totally different kettle of fish that... And a slightly different spin to the original discussion which was Trainz users inserting themselves into predominantly MSTS boards and browbeating MSTS users and conversely MSTS users doing the same to them (Which I posited wasn't happening in any statistically significant manner) NOT Trainz users discussing Trainz vs MSTS AMONG THEMSELVES...
You didn't used to be one of Bill Clinton's Lawyers in a former life did you?
>>
>>Then a Director of Auran, very unprofessionally IMO I might
>>add, steps in and accuses one of the most respected modelers
>>in the Freeware Train-Sim community, previously an advocate
>>for Trainz with in our Organization (NALW) and the Senior
>>Modeler at arguably the most successful, active Freeware
>>MSTS organization of misrepresenting the truth with out
>>providing any thing to back up in his/Tony's allegations
>>after he/Buzz recites his opinion of Auran's support and why
>>he was changing his opinion of Trainz and you wonder why
>>some of us get all exercised at the apparent
>>Telemarketer/Spammer Scorched Earth marketing approach,
>>which IMHO resembles a JIHAD, used by Auran's proxies on
>>this and other forums and you might get an inkling of why we
>>want them to be segregated from the rest of us...
>>
>So now Auran is compared to terrorists and Muslim extremists
>on a JIHAD, and I thought we were making a train sim. C'mon
>Chuck lighten up a little.
>No The objectionable behavior of some of your more enthusiastic users in trying to "convert" the rest of us and the apparent lack of effort by anyone in Auran Management to discourage them despite repeated requests from the MSTS community for them to cease and desist is what I am talking about.
For instance look at this post
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID18/151.html#9
which appears to me to be a cut and paste directly from some Auran sales literature..
And look where it is posted..
This is just waving a red flag at a bull behavior by one of your Over enthusiastic Trainz Bigots....
When you can control Bozos like this then the MSTS community might be more receptive to your arguments...
As a professional business person you KNOW that this does nothing to promote acceptance of your product and merely polarizes the user community, usually in favor of the larger product... See Apple/Windows (The only good MAC is a Big Mac and Apple is a bit like an 80 year olds whatchamacallit - we all know its there but who the hell cares?) So it would seem to me you guys at Trainz need to get the rhetoric lowered a bit or become the Apple of the Train-sim world! Or better yet that flight simulator product that came out around the same time as FS2k and died after 2 years or so even though in many ways it was technically superior... There were heated debates about that comparison too IIRC!>In respect to Buzz, I confess I did misread his post about
>Raildriver. We provided support for UTC as soon as we could
>(which was my point) and to tell the truth, I didn't even
>know that we hadn't yet released a version to our Trainz
>users. I know PI Engineering haven't been pressing us for a
>Trainz 1 version, and I haven't seen any requests on our
>forums for a Trainz 1 version either. If Buzz would like to
>get a few requests together and write to our helpdesk, then
>we'll certainly look at releasing a Trainz 1 raildriver
>patch.
>Glad we got that sorted out!>Now, hopefully the personal attacks can stop, I won't have
>to risk my reputation once again being questioned, and we
>can all get on with the business of making better
>simulations. Please!
>It only got personal when Buzz got "attacked"...
It was actually humorous up to that point!
And if the thread was in the General Forum would have been perfectly allowable....>
>>You all have a nice day now!
>
>You too Chuck. Good night Mrs. Calabash where ever you are!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>And if the thread was in the General Forum would have been
>perfectly allowable.... As a participant in this thread I whole heartedly agree.

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>I agree Jeff it must be you.... LOL!
>
>Seriously, Re-read the original post which was IMHO a
>recitation of all the neat features promised for Trainz
>lebenty seven eleven or what ever its called and how will
>Microsoft ever catch up to Auran and how much will they
>delay the release of MSTS2 to reverse engineer Trainz ad
>naseum! I must be considerably less crusty than most. I think you're reading a lot more into the post than is really there.The way I read it, it states, I hear Trainz has this. That's pretty cool. Do you think M$/KUJU might delay the release of MSTS 2 to ensure that they end up with the better product?That's it. Will M$ hold up MSTS to be absolutely sure it's better than Trainz? I don't see any sort of Trainz (whatever upcoming release) is going to kick MSTS 2's butt! I fail to see how a topic such as this is inappropriate for this particular forum. (MSTS 2) It's purely a question about probable outcomes. It's not some Trainz fanatic spouting the merits of the upcoming Trainz release. I think this falls into the "If you're actively searching for *&$#, you'll find it!" category.I'm not even touching the comments regarding anything said by the Trainz representative, only that the original post does indeed have a place in this forum. Speculation is really all we have to comment on, so why is this form of speculation any less valid?
-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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Jeff,You are ignoring history...There are so many bad feelings over the Trainz Jihad among the more senior members of the MSTS community that any mention of the subject starts people snarling...
Kinda like your dog, if you kick him every time you go out the door then pretty soon just opening the door can become an adventure...Are we too sensitive? Did we jump the poor kid inappropriately? Probably!
But then look at the follow on posts by the Trainz Jihaddists!You have to interpret everything in context or you miss the meaning entirely.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>Jeff,
>
>You are ignoring history...
>
>There are so many bad feelings over the Trainz Jihad among
>the more senior members of the MSTS community that any
>mention of the subject starts people snarling...
>Kinda like your dog, if you kick him every time you go out
>the door then pretty soon just opening the door can become
>an adventure...
>
>Are we too sensitive? Did we jump the poor kid
>inappropriately? Probably!
>But then look at the follow on posts by the Trainz
>Jihaddists!
>
>You have to interpret everything in context or you miss the
>meaning entirely. I can understand that Chuck. But it sure looked like things didn't get nasty until you basically said it was anti-MSTS propaganda.Perhaps if the knee jerk reactions didn't happen, the post wouldn't have inflated into what it did?Just something to think about.
-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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>I can understand that Chuck. But it sure looked like things
>didn't get nasty until you basically said it was anti-MSTS
>propaganda.
>
>Perhaps if the knee jerk reactions didn't happen, the post
>wouldn't have inflated into what it did?
>
>Just something to think about. The thread was civil and controlled until Crow357 started making his OT posts. When you knowingly start your posts with . . . "Man I'll prolly get flamed hard for this, but I just read something over at the Trainz forum that made me salivate quite heavily.....". . . your just begging for problems. Chuck didn't start this. Paraphrasing, 'those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them'.

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>. . . your just begging for problems. Chuck didn't start
>this. Paraphrasing, 'those who forget the mistakes of the
>past are doomed to repeat them'. You might want to check the times of Chuck's and Crow's posts and see who actually *was* first.Lawrence

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>>. . . your just begging for problems. Chuck didn't start
>>this. Paraphrasing, 'those who forget the mistakes of the
>>past are doomed to repeat them'.
>
>You might want to check the times of Chuck's and Crow's
>posts and see who actually *was* first.
>
>Lawrence And my original post started out with some humor in a not so gentle attempt to remind people of the Gentleman's agreement not to cross post. Then I tried to seriously answer The Kid's question.
You do understand humor don't you LK?It started to get ugly after Crow did his pimp act and really got bad after The gentleman from Auran attacked my Friend!But then none of that is important to you is it LK?
Not having any intestinal fortitude yourself you think because a few others in this thread are attacking me you can pile on and maybe it will restore your self image don't you?You're still a trouble making worm IMO!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>The thread was civil and controlled until Crow357 started
>making his OT posts. When you knowingly start your posts
>with . . .
>
> "Man I'll prolly get flamed hard for this, but I just read
>something over at the Trainz forum that made me salivate
>quite heavily....."
>
>. . . your just begging for problems. Chuck didn't start
>this. Paraphrasing, 'those who forget the mistakes of the
>past are doomed to repeat them'. http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID18/151.html#76
-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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None of the above two posts or links changes my mind on what I posted. Chuck didn't start this, Crow357's post did.

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FYI - this was the quote from the thread in Feb from the official Trainz forum. This is linked as the installation instructions from the RailDriver FAQ on the Trainz website:"We shall be providing drivers for the other versions of Trainz in the very near future."Yet checking PI engineering's site (just this afternoon i might add), i see that RailDriver is supported ONLY if you have the UTC upgrade. How can this be disputed?It is that one statement more than anything that got my goat. Had it been said that RD would only work with Trainz UTC in the first place, i would have had very little to be miffed about. But, since the original release of Trainz is the only other version of Trainz that i was aware of besides UTC, it would only seem logical to assume that the statement above referred to RD support for the original version. I have emailed PI engineering inquiring about using RD with the original version of Trainz, and am awaiting their response. I will be come back and apologize if they can indeed point me to files that will make RD work with the original Trainz. I would hope the reverse will occur however if they come back and say otherwise.Secondly, i NEVER accused your review of being false and misleading. I kind of insinuated that it wasn't necessarily unbiased. I stated that the fact that you made some snide remarks about MSTS2. IMHO, throwing in a snide remark about where your product is superior while doing the review of the other product is not what I consider unbiased. Again though, that's my opinion. I personally feel that to be completely unbiased that comment was not needed, or an equally snide comment should have been thrown into the Trainz review.As for the intolerance thing - ok, maybe i did forget to mention that i also OWN A COPY of Trainz! Even have up to 1.3 build 277! So i don't see how i am intorlerant! In fact, if you do a search in train-sim.com far back enough, you'll see several posts where I was the voice of reason when the MSTS vs Trainz thing came up. I liked both products quite a bit! I touted the ease of power of the Surveyor mode on this board before Trainz even came out (i was one of those people near-drooling when your folks showed it off at a model railroad manufacturer show!). I felt that both MSTS and Trainz had a place and that they could co-exist peacefully on the same PC. Perhaps i can one day feel that way again - in this case it is not the product itself that has "turned me off" to Trainz. It is situations like this...Product cycle - what is UTC then if not part of the product cycle? Did you say it is a patch? I thought patches are supposed to fix bugs left in the software. Are you telling me that UTC is a (currently) $25.00 patch? Please clear this up. (The penalty in this case for not buying every year seems to be that my RD is useless with my current copy of Trainz - something i will again re-iterate that i would not be bothered by had it not been stated that it WOULD be supported by my current copy of Trainz.)Anyway, i know is shouldn't be egged on like this, but i'm tired and probably still a little ticked now that i have been called a liar - from a director at Auran no less...------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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Reply from PI Engineering:I am sorry, but we only work with the new UTC Tranz.End of Line(Let's see who knows where THAT line came from! LOL!!!)------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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>Product cycle - what is UTC then if not part of the product
>cycle? Did you say it is a patch? I thought patches are
>supposed to fix bugs left in the software. Are you telling
>me that UTC is a (currently) $25.00 patch? Please clear
>this up. (The penalty in this case for not buying every
>year seems to be that my RD is useless with my current copy
>of Trainz - something i will again re-iterate that i would
>not be bothered by had it not been stated that it WOULD be
>supported by my current copy of Trainz.)
>UTC really put me off purchasing Trainz. First off Trainz was A$109.95 when it was first released. If someone purchased Paintshed when it came out, they would have paid A$140.20 in total. Then if you wanted to have the latest and greatest version of Trainz, you had to pay another A$49.95 to get UTC. For Trainz + Paintshed and then UTC, this is a total of A$190.15 in only one year! Now only one year after UTC, Trainz 2004 will be released. How much more will people have to pay for this? Even if Trainz 2004 is good, I wouldn't pay any more than A$50 for it because it appears like I would only get one year out of the product before Auran stop supporting it with free patches.I think a better way to do it would be to release a new version of Trainz every 2 years. On the years when a new version isn't released, an "Ultimate" version with increased functionality and added content could be released to attract new users. For existing users of Trainz, their loyalty to the product could be rewarded by giving them the updates to the program free of charge. If they want the added content, then there is a discount on the "Ultimate" version.--Victorian Railfan Web Site:
http://www.railpage.org.au/vr/Australian Bulldogs for MSTS! B, S, GM & 42's now available!

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I totally agree with you VRFan.
And Buzz and Chuck.I bought original Trainz a few months after MSTS came out. IT was ok and i semi enjoyed it.
Then Paintshed comes out on top of $75cdn for Trainz i was supposed to buy a $30 cdn paint shed so i could DL GP38's and SW series switchers and nicer looking freight cars. Then UTC comes out and thats another $70/75cdn purchase that i'd need to keep up with stuff. NOW if you are to keep up with anything in the TRainz world you are expected to put out 75 buck cdn each year plus whatever other "new feature" they want to charge for. now if i had of bought ALL those things i listed i would be $180 i dont have any more and soon to be $75 more for Trainz simulator 2004.Now... I have bought Raildriver and its an amazing product for MSTS.
As mentioned I only have ORIGINAL trainz. Now that is completly unfair that i must pay $75 JUST so i can run trainz on it!
SCREW THAT! I'd rather spend my $75 on MSTS payware routes and locos.
Now Will MS get my $75 for Train sim 2. Hell yeah.
Will Auran get my money. Hell no. Because im worried about falling behind in the system. and not being able to enjoy ALL freeware routes and trains that come out. For MSTS no payware upgrades and i've been able to enjoy ALL trains released from the start and ALL trains released now. Which is great! i relaly like that.But i am limited to a few things for Trainz and im not going to put out $75 so i can run a GP38 or a SD90 when i can run them for FREE on MSTS.I found Trainz's train handling WAY to unreal.
Along with signals- 3 indications Green, yellow, red. It doesnt tell me to slow down for a siding or anything.
I also REALLY hated speeds... No warning AT all of a speed change it'd go from 60-20 and if you were in a "scenario" you'd lose major points cuz you were speeding. And for newtonkid:
I hope that since the date was pushed back they'll take a look at aurans thing and improve MSTS upon it. And as usual MSTS will be superior in the long run.

Rob.
Mile 21.0 CN Oakville Sub.

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Ditto VRFan & Rob !Didn't buy trainz for the same reasons of being rudely priced. Sent Auran an email to that effect back then too.However have just scored a copy of Trainz with my re-subscription to PC Authority Magazine. Now getting Trainz for free - about the right price.Would have re-subsribed anyway...On Chucks advice read the annual reports of MS but couldn't find Aurans.No mention of sales figures of MSTS PW
Aka Auran Troll ?

Attachments

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>Ditto VRFan & Rob !
>
>Didn't buy trainz for the same reasons of being rudely
>priced. Sent Auran an email to that effect back then too.
>
>However have just scored a copy of Trainz with my
>re-subscription to PC Authority Magazine. Now getting Trainz
>for free - about the right price.
>
>Would have re-subsribed anyway...
>
>On Chucks advice read the annual reports of MS but couldn't
>find Aurans.
>
>No mention of sales figures of MSTS
>
>PW
>Aka Auran Troll ? ROFLMFAO! Good one Troll! I'm actually trying to find where I saw those numbers....
They may have been annecdotal at E3 or something...
Rest assured now I want to find them, again!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>Consider this: even the supposedly "all we want is your
>money, give it to us now" Microsoft's product cycle is about
>2 yrs. Meaning that once about every two years, a new
>version of the product is released. I think about it -
>Flight Sim, Train Sim, Windows, Office, ALL are on a 2-yr
>product cycle. Now consider this - with Trainz 2004, that
>will keep Auran on a ONE YEAR product cycle. (HECK! Even
>my older PC, now almost 2-yrs old, is not yet completely
>obsolete!)To support your assertion another direct quote from the official Auran July 10th Trainz newsletter:"Price Drop on Ultimate Trainz Collection
With still a few more months to wait until the release of Trainz Railroad Simulator 2004, we've dropped the price of the Ultimate Trainz Collection to just US$24.99. With a 30% discount voucher if you have registered your copy of Trainz you can save a further $7.50."------------------------------------------------------------------Pay for another upgrade now and then pay again for another upgrade in only a few more months. Why do people always spell MS as M$, while Auran sets a new standard for gouging users?

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They're forcing you to buy how?

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-11-03 AT 05:40 PM (EDT)

Change of heart.Edit.

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Well, I was going to stay out of this, but h*ll, I *do* have personality problems--that is if you believe what is written about me.I fail to see how this can be considered off topic.>A friend of mine told me yesterday that TrainsZ will be
>coming out with an upgraded program in a couple of months.
>Looks like it will be out before MSTS2. He starts by mentioning that Trainz is also putting out an upgrade and that it looks like it will be out before MSTS2. On Topic.>He said he is really looking foreword to it. The
>pre-release announcement indicated that it will have working
>industries. My understanding is that you will be able to
>set it up so that a train can actually load and unload.
>Trailers and intermodel containers loaded or unloaded at a
>facility. Coal unloaded at a power plant and loaded at a
>mine. WOW! This is also on topic when you consider that this is an introduction to the two below thoughts.>Thought One:
>We all know that the people who are working on MSTS2 keep a
>close eye on the competition. That is good as we get much
>better programs that way. How can this be considered off topic? Unless you don't think that competition is good.>Thought Two:
>Word has it that the Activities for MSTS1 will not work with
>MSTS2. Most other things such as routes and equipment is
>said to be compatible. Does this indicate that MSTS2 will
>have this TraisZ function. It would seem logical given they
>appear to be working on an operational turn-table. How is this off topic? He asks an honest question..will MSTS2 have an "activity" function more like Trainz? By the way, Newton, the answer to that is No, according to the report from E3.>The question of the day:
>Will MSTS2 release be pushed back until they can evaluate
>their TrainsZ new realase and insure that MSTS2 is superior? Then a *very* good question. How will MS respond to Auran? How is this off topic?Unfortunately, as I am writing this, I do not have the entire thread in front of me. I do, however, seem to remember that his questions were not answered. Some of the "older" forum members took umbrage to the fact that the word "T r a i n z" was used in this forum. "Mildred, did you see that????? How gauche!" And *they*, not Newton, decided to raise the stakes in this thread to one of flaming. Newton asked some very good questions--questions that were on topic--unlike the response from some "old" members.When I look at the responses, especially the ones unprofessionally condemning the unprofessionalism of a corporate member of Auran, espcially comparing Auran to terrorists, I am sickened. It makes me wish that I had some of the freeware products--so I could delete them! Of course, if you read the "nice" things said about me, you will know that it is thought here by some of the vocal ones that I have "personality disorders."That's what I like about this forum....so loving, so kind.Lawrenceps. Chuck, I have a suggestion for you. Please consider it. I have now been a beta tester for Auran for over a year. I know for a fact that many of the beta testers scream and holler (virtually, that is) about different aspects of the software. And you know what? That is what Auran wants. They don't want beta testers who are "yes" people. So, here's the suggestion. Why not offer your services to Auran as a beta tester and tell them exactly, in a systematic way, what is wrong with their product.

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Carefull Chuck and the rest of you, Herr Kellie is around. He is like a bad penny, he keeps turning up.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Lone Wolf Activities Forum on www.3DTrains.com

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>especially comparing Auran to terrorists, I am sickened.Point of fact:No one compared Auran to terrorists, that comparison was only brought up by Tony Hilliam himself. There were references to the Trainz folks acting like religious zealots on a crusade to wipe out the infidels, a reference I do feel is valid because of the religious zeal they show in constantly trying to ram their views down our throats because we prefer another product. (Reminiscent of the old PC vs. Mac wars of the 80's.)

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-03 AT 10:32 AM (EDT)

Well that's it for me!
Trainz is recommended and tested by LK!
Gonna run right out and get it! Not!
LK if you are really interested, and I'm guessing your not since I'm the one talking now and we all know you view me as the Great Satan after "Les Affair des Signature Gifs", the complaints are, were and forever will be the Faux Evangelism of the Trainz Community and their insistence on inserting "Pro Trainz" propaganda in the MSTS boards at the least provocation. It kinda reminds me of a Cat walking around harking up fur-balls all over the house and is just about as appealing to me also!If the response to "The Kid" appears over the top it is because the field was previously plowed by the Trainz Crusaders in their Jihad to convert us MSTS infidels to the "True Faith"! Puke! Gag! Not!As far as the "Director" getting himself hammered!
Tough darts! That's the way it is!
He virtually accused one of our (NALW) lead modelers and a leading member of the MSTS community of misrepresenting the facts. When in fact a little research supported Buzz' position and the Auran Dude had to apologize subsequently! I'd be a pretty poor Friend and Leader if I didn't stand up for my friends and associates wouldn't I? Especially when they are right!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Don'T take it personal, but I don'T fell like Auran is trying to press their opinion down my throat. I own MSTS 1, and would have bought UTC a long time ago if it hadn'T been for some stupid german law (UTC is imported without a valid (state issued) age rating here in Germany, which makes it illegal to sell to underage (below 18!!!9 buyers).
I am sure that both Trainz and MSTS (whatever version) will eventually have their good and bad sides.Concerning the posting of a Trainz topic in a MSTS-2 forum, one of the reasons maybe that the Trainz forum was placed rather low in the list, while MSTS-2 is rather prominent in the upper part of the forum list, and also much more frequented.

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This is not personal either, please don't take offense. If you've only been a member of the forums since April of this year, you don't have enough history here to know what has happened in the past. While things have been relatively calm for the last couple of months, the problems being cited had been happening fairly regularly for the last couple of years.This board started prior to the release of MSTS and has always had a primarily MSTS focus, the Trainz section was added after the release of Trainz to avoid just these kind of problems.One reason for the lack of prominence of the Trainz forum on this board may be the relative lack of interest/number of posts in that forum which has always been very low. Most dedicated Trainz users seem to prefer posting on the official Auran site, while most MSTS users seem to congregate here.

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Well my main beef was with what followed the original post in this response http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID18/151.html#9
.I had no real problems with what was said at all in the first post by Newton Kid, it was what followed it with some of the Trainz people seeing it as a starting point (yet again) for a crusade against MSTS.If this original post were followed up in the General Forum, then no problem we could all put our heads through our monitors together in frustration. A discussion of each Sim's merit is fair enough but I believe in the general fourm which is not relevant to any particular Sim. Excessive posting in the MSTS2 forum about the merits of Trainz over MSTS, especially in the MSTS2 forum is just not kosher. Thats what ticked me off.FYI I have Trainz and MSTS (I just prefer MSTS).

Models currently building:
Queensland Rail 1300 Class
Queensland Rail Diesel Tilt Train
Tasrail ZC Class
Tasrail Z/ZA/ZB Classes
Tasrail D/DQ/DC Classes

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Lawrence,Just admit you are still PO'd at Chuck over the whole signature thing a while ago and be done with it! Jeez!See, Newton Kid's last line was:
"The question of the day:
Will MSTS2 release be pushed back until they can evaluate their TrainsZ new realase and insure that MSTS2 is superior?"That could VERY easily be mistaken for a SARCASTIC comment about MS usual dominance in the software biz - ie squash the "little guy". That's kinda what i thought when i first read it too....NOW - you seem to be directing this whole thread's explosion at Chuck! WELL - Re-read the thread please! Whatever Newton Kid's comment is taken as, the thread remained QUITE civil until Crow357 decided to spew ALL the virtues of Trainz in the MSTS2 forum! UP TO THAT POINT THIS WAS A VERY CIVIL THREAD ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE ORIGINAL POSTER'S COMMENTS WERE OFF-TOPIC!!! So THEY (the older forum members as you put it) did NOT escalate this to flame level at the "audacity" of someone mentioning the word Trainz in a message... Crow357 let his mouth spew all over the place about how great Trainz was (actually he copied someone else's post from another forum in here - and putting it here WAS very off-topic!!). That was it for ME! ME, Lawrence, not Chuck! My very first flame war in over 2 years in this forum resulted from MY reaction to Crow357's drool falling over Trainz stuff! (When you hear of Trainz evangelists, THAT's what we mean!). Chuck came in on my defense! So Lawrence, this being the case, i think it's VERY obvious that you're just coming in here to try to "get revenge" or something for your loss to Chuck over the whole stupid signature thing, cause you're blaming him for starting something he didn't. Now i think it is a good idea if you go back out!------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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>NOW - you seem to be directing this whole thread's explosion
>at Chuck! WELL - Re-read the thread please! Whatever
>Newton Kid's comment is taken as, the thread remained QUITE
>civil until Crow357 decided to spew ALL the virtues of
>Trainz in the MSTS2 forum! UP TO THAT POINT THIS WAS A VERY
>CIVIL THREAD ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE ORIGINAL POSTER'S
>COMMENTS WERE OFF-TOPIC!!! "This is a very thinly disguised "pimp" for Tranz!
Why don't you guys get your own forum and go there?
Oh wait you have one...
But you'd rather troll over here in MSTS land.....
Keep it up and we'll go pee all over your forum....
"You're correct. It's a well known fact that diplomats are trained to pee on opposing factions. It's the civil way to disagree. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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Ok, well maybe "civilized" wasn't QUITE the right word! Point is, it wasn't a death bash or a flame war until Crow357 decided to put the trigger in that set ME off - which settled down relatively quickly (at least compared to what resulted afterward!).------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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>Point is, it wasn't a death bash or a flame war until
>Crow357 decided to put the trigger in that set ME off -
>which settled down relatively quickly (at least compared to
>what resulted afterward!). You, too, should check the times of your intrepid leader's post and Crow's post. Guess who was first? Or do facts not count?Lawrence

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Lawrence... whatever.
I KNOW Chuck posted first... Now, with that in mind, kindly re-read what i said and see if you get what i was trying to say...------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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>Ok, well maybe "civilized" wasn't QUITE the right word!
>
>Point is, it wasn't a death bash or a flame war until
>Crow357 decided to put the trigger in that set ME off -
>which settled down relatively quickly (at least compared to
>what resulted afterward!). Well Buzz actually it was! Note the smiley after the part Heffed is getting all exercised about! I think that denotes humor doesn't it?Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-03 AT 10:01 PM (EDT)

Yes - that's also why i replied with a " " too! Hehe
(At this point, i think i'm just trying to see if this thread can hit 100 replies! LOL!)------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-03 AT 10:58 AM (EDT)

>Yes - that's also why i replied with a " " too! Hehe
>(At this point, i think i'm just trying to see if this
>thread can hit 100 replies! LOL!)
>
>------ BUZZ ------
>
>-- Power For You -- I dooed it Daddy I really Doed it!
100 posts in a single thread!
LOL!Take that you nefarious and shady Trainz Trollz!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>>Ok, well maybe "civilized" wasn't QUITE the right word!
>>
>>Point is, it wasn't a death bash or a flame war until
>>Crow357 decided to put the trigger in that set ME off -
>>which settled down relatively quickly (at least compared to
>>what resulted afterward!).
>
>Well Buzz actually it was! Note the smiley after the part
>Heffed is getting all exercised about! I think that denotes
>humor doesn't it? Actually, I didn't think it was a joke because isn't the winking smiley the one that denotes a joke? The other is just a general well being sort of thing isn't it? Like that you're happy to pee on people? You also could have stated early on that your comment was a joke. It's easy to misinterpret things when communicating by text.-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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>You also could have stated early on that your comment was a
>joke. It's easy to misinterpret things when communicating by
>text. And I might have if Crow and Tony and LK hadn't stepped in....Do you really want to be associated with them Jeff?Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>>You also could have stated early on that your comment was a
>>joke. It's easy to misinterpret things when communicating by
>>text.
>
>And I might have if Crow and Tony and LK hadn't stepped
>in....
>
>Do you really want to be associated with them Jeff? No. I just feel stupid for championing a cause that was as you say, a joke.You could have saved me a bit of effort.-Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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>>>You also could have stated early on that your comment was a
>>>joke. It's easy to misinterpret things when communicating by
>>>text.
>>
>>And I might have if Crow and Tony and LK hadn't stepped
>>in....
>>
>>Do you really want to be associated with them Jeff?
>
>No. I just feel stupid for championing a cause that was as
>you say, a joke.
>
>You could have saved me a bit of effort.Nah! I was having too much fun with you.... I was, however, being serious with the other named gentlemen...
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-03 AT 09:17 PM (EDT)

>But you'd rather troll over here in MSTS land.....
>Keep it up and we'll go pee all over your forum....
>"
>
>You're correct. It's a well known fact that diplomats are
>trained to pee on opposing factions. It's the civil way to
>disagree. But it's the American way! BTW, you did note the smiley that denoted that as well as my original statement as jokes didn't you?
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Chuck,In case you may have forgotten (or don't care for that matter), I have been here for a very long time. In fact, I *was* one of the most ardent Trainz bashers AND one of the most vociferous defenders of the MSTS faith. I distinctly remember pugilisticly expounding on how Trainz had released an inferior product, because they announced a patch before people even received the first version. I remember many a troll coming through, and the "joy" I had by getting my gingsu writer's dictionary to slice, dice, and julienne the poor misguided creatures.But without even an inkling of trouble, you spout off in this post showing the people skills that you have for no reason.Yes, I do know the history, so you have no need to use that as an excuse for the fact that your boxer shorts must be a little tight!And here, http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/3531.html#35 , you show your true colors: If you can't have what you want, you will hold the MSTS community hostage, and you won't "play" anymore. Others have tried it, others have done it, so you won't be alone when you do.Just for your information, I came to this forum to see if there was any news about MSTS2. I did NOT come here to flame--of course, since I have personnality problems (as indicated by the psychological members of the train-sim community) and I am retarded (as diagnosed by you), why would you believe me?Regardless, it's the truth.Now, what was I saying? Oh, yes. I came here to read about new information.In fact, I am not even supposed to be here. I asked Nels, some months ago to remove my name from membership--and more importantly to you, from being a moderator of one of the forums, which, if you ever visit it, you can think of and thank me. I *was* a moving force in getting that forum in operation. So, think of me often, Chuck.Anyway, I digress. Nels removed my name, from both the member logs and from being a moderator. I continued to peek in once in a while to see if there was any news.Imagine my surprise to find that I was reinstated. I never asked for it, and I am surprised that it happened.So you see, dearest Chuck, I'm not even here! If you don't like that what I am writing, remember, I did not ask to be here.I do find it interesting, however, that some of the names who pioneered this forum are no longer here. I wonder why? Could it be because of the acerbic nature of the interaction here? I know for me, I can get that at a family reunion! I don't need it here.One other point that I find amusing. You know of course that you have sunk to a real low when georgi55 supports me! We have a real history of intense dislike for each other. So I congratulate you.Oh, sorry, I do have to ask a question of you. Why didn't you blast Ottodad for his positive comment about Trainz? Could it be because you are nothing but a schoolyard bully who likes to pick on those "weaker" than you?Man, more comments just keep coming. Regarding the size of your banner. You did NOT win the conflict because it met ONE of the requirements (by the way, all THREE are required--"and" is used, not "or"), you won the conflict because Nels said he allows the "old timers" leeway to break the rules. In other words, there are two sets of rules--one for new people and one for old timers. Or is it because you would threaten to play your game elsewhere? (Oh, just for your information, since you DID change the size of your banner, you tacitly agree that all THREE criteria are valid AND you tacitly state that *I* won the war! )Sincerely Yours,Lawrence

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Ok, you just proved Chuck and me correct then - you ARE just PO'd about the signature thing...If you hadn't noticed Lawrence, this thread had JUST about died until you jumped in here and started in on Chuck.That's the last i'm gonna say to you on this. I think you've made it quite clear what the issue here is with you...------ BUZZ ------

-- Power For You --

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>Ok, you just proved Chuck and me correct then - you ARE just
>PO'd about the signature thing... Really? How?Lawrence

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There are much much bigger problems in everyone's everyday life here
and some people still can't stop the flames.
Or, I guess those people are bored with their life and have nothing better than do than come to the forum and troll.
(and as for TH, this IS his everyday life that he makes living and supports family out of,
so anyone saying it's unprofessional to discuss matter of his life, then you obviously got no heart.)

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-03 AT 11:27 AM (EDT)

>There are much much bigger problems in everyone's everyday
>life here
>and some people still can't stop the flames.
>Or, I guess those people are bored with their life and have
>nothing better than do than come to the forum and troll.
>(and as for TH, this IS his everyday life that he makes
>living and supports family out of,
>so anyone saying it's unprofessional to discuss matter of
>his life, then you obviously got no heart.) Too bad it was unprofessional IMO! Georgi...Tony's kids aren't gonna starve because I protested in the strongest terms possible his characterizing my friend and associate a lier.
He in fact apologized for misspeaking and that is over as far as Buzz and I are concerned!You really need to take a reading comprehension class and stop pulling things out of the middle of a post and reacting to them.The name of the game is READING IN CONTEXT georgi me lad!If on the other hand what you really want is to start a flame war with me then be a man and just step right up and say so...
Though as a general rule I don't fight with the Mentally Challenged other than LK!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>Though as a general rule I don't fight with the Mentally
>Challenged other than LK! Really, how low can you go? Now you discriminate unfortunately ill born people by applying it to normal person. (LK)

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>
>>Though as a general rule I don't fight with the Mentally
>>Challenged other than LK!
>
>Really, how low can you go? Now you discriminate
>unfortunately ill born people by applying it to normal
>person. (LK) You're right Georgi, I'm politically incorrect!As for LK being normal, the jury is still out on that!As usual you're picking the wrong horse to bet on!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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I came to the forum to check on all the news / gossip about MSTS 2 . Saw this post with 50 messages, got interested. Read every post. Had some time to kill so well had a nice time.
Quite refreshing change.Nice Flames Personally I feel if trainz related posts are not responded to in this forum then there wont be any trainz posts.

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Nice to see so much maturity showing in this thread *sigh*...
Get a life guys, either ignore the post and move on .. or.. sit here and act like a kid and bitch about it. I dont see why you guys sit here complain, complain, and complain. Either its because you guys have no lives and live on this forum and anything you consider wrong you jump right on it, or its something else. I'm sick of seeing it to be honest. Just my .02 centz worthHave a Safe CSX day,
-csxac44_69

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And with only 9 posts and no idea of what preceded and provoked all this you jump in and tell us to get a life????Go away with that!If we want to live on the boards then that is our business.
You telling us to get a life is provocative and basically none of your business!Take your own advice and if you don't want to read it don't!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>And with only 9 posts and no idea of what preceded and
>provoked all this you jump in and tell us to get a life????
>
>Go away with that!
>
>If we want to live on the boards then that is our business.
>You telling us to get a life is provocative and basically
>none of your business!
>
>Take your own advice and if you don't want to read it don't!
>
>Chuck Schneider
>(Virtual) CEO
>North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works
> Just because I have 9 posts does not mean I've been around only so long. I've been a lurker here ever since this site was created so don't tell me I have no idea on what does go on in these forums. But, on the otherhand, this is entertainment, although pathetic.Have a Safe CSX day,
-csxac44_69

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For EVERYONE who has posted in this thread, including Tony Hilliam:I'm a charter member of this board; I used MSTS for quite some time, then changed to Trainz. So I'm a Trainzer now.I came over to this forum to find out what MSTS was doing for their version 2. I read through this whole thread. Now gentlemen, I'd like you to look back on it as well, and reflect on how it makes ALL of you appear. I didn't come here for a fight; I came to be educated, enlightened and entertained. Thanks for the ride, I guess.Flames for my views go into the bitbucket as always.

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Glad you came back for entertainment!
It is kinda fun isn't it?At least you believe in truth in advertisement!Your approach/participation is always welcome.Just remember the prime directive, Don't Evangelize!
and keep comparisons in the General Forum where they belong!Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Well, I've read most of the current messages in this forum and I still haven't found an answer to my "burning questions"! Does the next version fix the abysmal file structure? Have they addressed the issue of copying every asset over and over? Having each asset duplicated for each and every route. I had over 11 gigs dedicated to MSTS when I gave up and went somewhere else. Anyone know/have any answers?Yes, this post appears in another place on the forum. I figured just possibly someone might have an answer since this is a posting about the NEW version of MSTS.

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I do recall this topic being discussed before here in the positive, but I don't have the message link handy. Someone else may respond or you may want to search through the posts in this forum.

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No real answers yet as anyone who really knows is either an employee or Microsoft/Kuju or under a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement)...
If you find out please let the rest of us know...
Everything about the underlying engine is, IMHO, conjecture at this time...Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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>Glad you came back for entertainment!
>It is kinda fun isn't it? Your right Chuck, if nothing else this forum does provide entertainment in one form or another.

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>I came over to this forum to find out what MSTS was doing
>for their version 2.Exactly, thats been the overidng point of most of our posts.

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Notes on my Original Message:
I am really sorry to have created such as stir with this message. I truely did not realize that the "T...Z" word was such poison on this forum. In retrospect, I would have just asked about the possiblity of such features and not referenced it to another game. I do believe that working industries would be really neat in any simulation.At age 50, the 47 was really close, I am too old to take offense easily at those who were critical of the post. Free expression is the purpose of the forum. I am sure that some of my critics sounded overly harsh because the response was quickly written. Been there, done that! I do appreciate all those who came to me defense. I will try and politely disagree with Chucks comment about people such as Microsoft not looking at other products. In keeping with my new commitment to not name products on this forum; I will ask people to remember that there was a fruit company that had an operating system that took Microsolf years to duplicate. Some may even argue that until XP that the other product was superior. I believe that most companies look at what their competion is doing. The purpose in many cases is not to duplicate what they are doing, but to figure out how to do it better and get one up on the competition. It is remarkable how far computer games and even electronics has come in the last 5 or so years. You get my point.I would again like to say I did not intend these questions or comments to either directly or indirectly hurt anyone. I hope you all have a good day and will enjoy interacting with you in the future.

Newton Kid

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>I will ask people to remember that there was a fruit
>company that had an operating system that took Microsolf
>years to duplicate. Some may even argue that until XP that
>the other product was superior.Microsoft left said fruit company in the dust, in fact invested money in said company to keep them alive, years before XP. The fruit company just couldn't market their product as well as Microsoft. The fruits were strictly single platform/vendor, very overpriced, compared to a multi-vendor, multi platform solution by many clone makers at reasonable prices. Snob appeal marketing doesn't make up for the true economy of choice.

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Yo Kid good to hear from ya!I hope you at least understood the humor, as signified by the smiley after it, of Peeing on their forum....There was nothing wrong with your post except that it invoked a direct comparison between MSTS and Trainz... And seemed, at least that is how I read it, to imply that MS was going to wait and reverse engineer Trains to "catch up"! Those kind of thoughts are always incendiary! OK to make them in the General Forum though...The big brouhaha was about the insertion of Trainz advertising directly by cut and paste into a MSTS forum by one of the Trainz Enthusiasts and the accusation that one of my Friends was a liar!Your post was small potatoes in comparison and you'll note after my little "joke" I tried to answer you seriously. I still don't think MS will delay MSTS2 in any way to reverse engineer Trainz Lebenty Leven or whatever. IMO MS or Kuju probably has almost as current a copy of the upcoming Trainz as Tony H. does given the current advanced state of the Industrial Espionage Industry....Not your fault you didn't know there were serious dragons in the way you presented your question.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Without addressing the brouhaha among certain individuals, I'll say this, just as I've said before: I'm buying Trainz Railroad Simulator when it comes out, and I'll buy Train Simulator 2004 when it comes out. I'll, er, have to be buying a new computer or something at the same time, but that's neither here nor there. If only Auran solves the weirdo graphics problem that prevents me from enjoying UTC now, I'll happily play their game for quite some time. The guys at Auran and the guys at Kuju/Microsoft are doing their part in the great capitalist enterprise, and I'll be doing my part.Mah two cents.

____________________________________________________________________
Norfolk & Western’s Radford Division, Pulaski District: Who needs the Marias Pass?

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And what are the rumors?

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-03 AT 12:37 PM (EDT)

<<I'll say this, just as I've said before: I'm buying Trainz Railroad Simulator when it comes out, and I'll buy Train Simulator 2004 when it comes out>>No one has ever said you should not buy Trainz. People have merely expressed their resentment at those who feel the software cannot be critiqued and the evangelizing by some who own the software. People have also expressed it is their right to not purchase the software, but that does not preclude you from purchasing it.(I own Trainz BTW)

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-03 AT 04:03 PM (EDT)

><<I'll say this, just as I've said before: I'm buying Trainz
>Railroad Simulator when it comes out, and I'll buy Train
>Simulator 2004 when it comes out>>
>
>No one has ever said you should not buy Trainz. People have
>merely expressed their resentment at those who feel the
>software cannot be critiqued and the evangelizing by some
>who own the software. People have also expressed it is
>their right to not purchase the software, but that does not
>preclude you from purchasing it.
>
>(I own Trainz BTW) Well you're close...
The actual feeling is not that the software cannot be critiqued but that there are appropriate venues for it.
On Train-Sim.com that would be the General Forum, not the MSTS2 forum.
The absolute insistence of some of the more rabid Trainz advocates that God and Jane Fonda gave them the right to insert Trainz propaganda where ever they wish and whenever they wish no matter the venue or rules is what gets people upset...
It usually rises to the level of offensive spam IMO!Tony H. should examine the theory that the Jihaddism by various Trainz evangelists causes him loss of sales...
I bet they alienate a lot more people then they convert.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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I really haven't seen many rabid trainz activists here Chuck... at least I don't think I have. I HAVE seen several rabid MSTS advocates though, but I won't name names because this IS MSTS and we can fillabuster on as long as we like about how it's the One True Railroad Sim just as well as the "trainzers" can about theirs.
Though, to be honest, the accustations of Auran committing felonious acts of market manipulation and trickery seem to remind me of a time where Microsoft was, alledgedly, paying computer manufacturers kickbacks to ensure that MS was the only OS available.
Though I will state that one of the reasons they're called M$ because it costs them a smaller percentage of the intake to make the operating systems than it costs the music industry to make CDs...So, what are the features?

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>I really haven't seen many rabid trainz activists here
>Chuck... at least I don't think I have. I HAVE seen several
>rabid MSTS advocates though,As one MSTS advocate who has had his rabies shots, I make it a point not to post in Trainz forums or build up MSTS by constantly bashing Trainz. I wish the same was equally true by my Trainz counterparts. Things have been quiet for most of this year, it used to be much worse.

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>Tony H. should examine the theory that the Jihaddism by
>various Trainz evangelists causes him loss of sales...
>I bet they alienate a lot more people then they convert. Chuck, I think your onto something here. There are even times where I've pondered venturing into the dark side based on some respected opinions, but then threads like this come up and tick me off at the whole company again.

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Auran still benefits from flame wars in the end. Name visibility and recognition are so much more important than overall comparative quality and value. Many times browsing the shelves at wallyworld I have to move the MSTS boxes around to see what the little ones have hidden so they can run for money from mom. Never once have I seen any Auran product that I know of there.
As a species we like to get second opinions and we are willing to go out of our way to find something weird, and in truth the chest bashing and primal screaming that goes on whenever "IT" is mentioned around here play right into the product's circulation. If it was not a comparative product, would people get worked up over it? Nope, they'd laugh and move on to the next project or expansion pack news.So, anyway, that rather inflamatory subject touched upon:What's the point of this thread?

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