BVE Vs The World

Morning All
This post is spurred on by a conversation with an MSTS activist who will remain anonymous for now A great day is upon us microshaft have actually removed MSTS2 from the upcoming releases list, which leaves microsoft milk float simulator version 1 as their only train sim... removal makes me think that theres more chance of virgin reinstating class 47s then microsoft releasing it on february 04. Or worse M$ could have stopped development of it all together...This would leave BVE as the only mainstream trainsim in active development, what about trainz i hear you cry well i put trainz in the same boat it too is a waste of Hard Disk space.In a conversation i had with an MSTS follower, worshipper, guru or whatever he accused bve of being old and dated.So lets sum up......Q1) when you drive your class 31, can you hear the fantastic windup of the engine. can you see the guages spring into life in the truely authentic cab in MSTS.A1) Thats right NOOOOOOOOO youve got this strange looking cab that started out life as a GP38, and sounds that sound like a mini with a blown head gasket rather then a roaring english electric engine!Q2) Isnt that the same for all uk diesels in MSTSA2) Well shave my legs n call me grandma it is!Q3) what about bve? A3) well stone me each loco has its own cab, and authentic sounds and doesent feel like its going to cart wheel when you even look at the brake leaver.Q4) Can you see the track in msts?A4) thats right you can on an oustide view looking directly down at the loco for the next 20 yds in front, after that it looks like my mums colliflour....MUSHY and blurred.Q5) isnt that the same for bve?A5) Well stone me i dont think it is. Is that a broken fishplate at the end of the tunnel i see there?Q6) Ahh but do you have external views in bve....Sub Q6) Is bve a driving simulation?A6) Thats right it is, or i dont recall running up omaha beach trying to wrestle control from 'Ze Germans'. Or even trying to overtake Alan Prost in a renaut laguna. In real life have you ever seen a driver levitating cross legged like a buddhist on steriods floating round his loco and slowly moving down his train to check if his swallow logo on his rear power car is the wrong way round?Sub A6) Thats right YES!Q7) Have you got a route like WJMKv2 or X City south or the southern route in MSTS? A7) No i dont think you have.Q8) Does the train actually move like a train in MSTSA8) Umm no it doesent quite does it.. i mean youve got the forwards and backwards bit right, but leaning in to the curves you seem to have problem with.So there you have it what i dont doubt is the stunning visuals MSTS has, but when a user slams bve it spurs me to write this.
LONG LIVE BVE!

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RE: BVE Vs The World....., djt, Nov-24-03, 08:12 AM, (1) RE: BVE Vs The World....., fgw180joe, Nov-24-03, 08:13 AM, (2) RE: BVE Vs The World....., TomBoyRacer, Nov-24-03, 08:40 AM, (3) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Downunder Tom, Nov-24-03, 09:27 PM, (15) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Mr Gizmo, Nov-24-03, 08:41 AM, (4) RE: BVE Vs The World....., AngliaTrains, Nov-24-03, 09:46 AM, (8) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Stooopid_person, Nov-24-03, 10:43 AM, (9) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Stooopid_person, Nov-24-03, 08:51 AM, (5) RE: BVE Vs The World....., fgw180joe, Nov-24-03, 09:12 AM, (6) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Central trains, Nov-24-03, 09:16 AM, (7) RE: BVE Vs The World....., hongjian, Nov-24-03, 02:59 PM, (11) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Bryan88, Nov-24-03, 04:45 PM, (13) RE: BVE Vs The World....., herbis, Nov-24-03, 02:57 PM, (10) RE: BVE Vs The World....., JulieADriver, Nov-24-03, 03:42 PM, (12) RE: BVE Vs The World....., fgw180joe, Nov-24-03, 07:12 PM, (14) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Thomas Corcoran, Nov-24-03, 09:28 PM, (16) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Wulf_9, Nov-24-03, 11:47 PM, (17) RE: BVE Vs The World....., nigelb, Nov-25-03, 00:03 AM, (18) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Stooopid_person, Nov-25-03, 02:51 AM, (19) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Downunder Tom, Nov-26-03, 09:17 PM, (28) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Stooopid_person, Nov-27-03, 05:03 AM, (29) RE: BVE Vs The World....., NathanWhitington, Nov-27-03, 05:37 PM, (30) RE: BVE Vs The World....., techno79, Nov-25-03, 05:39 PM, (26) RE: BVE Vs The World....., IcyFire, Nov-25-03, 03:19 AM, (20) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Stooopid_person, Nov-25-03, 03:27 AM, (21) RE: BVE Vs The World....., IcyFire, Nov-25-03, 03:35 AM, (22) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Tim Frost, Nov-25-03, 05:13 AM, (23) RE: BVE Vs The World....., fgw180joe, Nov-25-03, 12:34 PM, (24) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Bryan88, Nov-25-03, 01:22 PM, (25) RE: BVE Vs The World....., fgw180joe, Nov-26-03, 09:09 AM, (27) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Vern, Nov-28-03, 03:36 AM, (31) RE: BVE Vs The World....., ferrovipathe, Nov-28-03, 05:15 AM, (32) RE: BVE Vs The World....., fgw180joe, Nov-28-03, 09:09 AM, (33) RE: BVE Vs The World....., djt, Nov-29-03, 03:39 PM, (34) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Thomas Corcoran, Nov-29-03, 04:09 PM, (35) RE: BVE Vs The World....., Vern, Nov-29-03, 04:19 PM, (36) RE: BVE Vs The World....., djt, Nov-30-03, 02:26 AM, (37)

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What we need is BVE running on Auran's Jet 2 graphics engine with the physics from Train Master.-DJT

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this is a bad post. it has opened the door to flames and trolls.Personally, I have the classes i want to drive for MsTS. All with the best Cab's, and Sounds. If i want to sample a new class i will make it myself, or download a good version.
BVE bore's me because you do the same each time. the same route, the same times, even the trains are in the same place!
MsTS is better for me, although it does not contain real AWS and the EB is awful, i still think its the most played out of all three Train Sim's.As somebody once said:BVE is more a Cab simulator, concentraits on realism, but not too much on graphic's. Few "missions" to complete.MsTS is more a train simulator. Moving trains and things make it more "game-ish" but there is much more avaliable stock and "missions"Trainz I dont know why people compare this, as its nothing like a train simulator. Its more live Hornby Virtual whatever it is because ive never come accross a train that has a single knob to make it move.

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if BVE bores you, what are you still doing here Joe?

How can you eat your pudding if you don't eat your meat?

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I agree BVE is the best, And joe have you not heard of Route Randomizer, its great. get LUL4 and Randomizer 10 and give it a run, you won't get bored.Tom

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Maybe your right joe, just me having a rant thats all...By the way in trainz there is a physics mode which has something thats close to train operation, and has proper working levers, instead of DCC select physics.

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Hi all,I hate MSTS because there's no english track sounds, theres no noise when you go over a point, the door's don't open/close, there no poeple, theres only ONE horn, the train moves off the track when going round bends slowly (not inline with track) , the plat forms are about 2 miles away from the train, the same cab's are in nerly all the english trains, theres no proper EB device, there no AWS, you see the window wiper working from the out side but not on the inside, the doesn't rock when in station or going round bends, the train stops to quickly and pulls to quickly, the sounds are crap, the wheels look silly same with the track, it derails you even when it wouldn't in real life and that all i can think of...Impovement witch could be done on BVE,1) working TPWS and ATS
2) wider track
3) working window wipers
4) Better controls or even you choose your controls
5) More working gaugesKind regards
Zane Saxton
BVE Railnetwork
www.railnetwork.netfirms.com

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-03 AT 10:43 AM (EST)

> the door's don't
>open/close, Well, in BVE they don't either. You just hear the sound. On some trains you can open and close the doors as it is wired to the pantograph.>the plat forms are about 2 miles away
>from the train, Depends on how you stop. I could stop 2 Miles away as well.>the same cab's are in nerly all the english
>trains, Then why are you using the same cabs?theres no proper EB device, there no AWS, There is a EB device. It's called the "Alerter" in MSTS. Is there AWS in BVE? It's just simulated. Look at the UKTS uploads and there is a download for simulated AWS as well.>you see
>the window wiper working from the out side but not on the
>inside, BVE's wiper doesn't work at all.>the train stops to quickly and pulls to quickly, Depends on the person modelling it. I could make a train in BVE that does that as well.>the
>sounds are crap, Which sounds?
>it derails you even when it wouldn't in real life Well, going 100mph on a tight curve or crashing into the buffers/another train won't derail in real life? There is an option to tuen off derailments on curves anyway.

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-03 AT 08:55 AM (EST)

>A great day is upon us microshaft have actually removed
>MSTS2 from the upcoming releases list, which leaves
>microsoft milk float simulator version 1 as their only train
>sim... removal makes me think that theres more chance of
>virgin reinstating class 47s then microsoft releasing it on
>february 04. Or worse M$ could have stopped development of
>it all together...
The MSTS 2 website is still there. Just removed from the list at Microsoft Games. Maybe they'll take a long tim since Kuju backed out and now M$ is taking over the coding. MS might totally recode it, much better than Kuju at least.
>Q1) when you drive your class 31, can you hear the fantastic
>windup of the engine. can you see the guages spring into
>life in the truely authentic cab in MSTS.
There are 3d rendered Class 31 cabs out there.
>Q2) Isnt that the same for all uk diesels in MSTS
No it isn't. Depends on what you want to use.
>Q4) Can you see the track in msts?
>
>A4) thats right you can on an oustide view looking directly
>down at the loco for the next 20 yds in front, after that it
>looks like my mums colliflour....MUSHY and blurred.
Try using anti-aliasing.
>Q7) Have you got a route like WJMKv2 or X City south or the
>southern route in MSTS? Well, does BVE have routes like MidEast UK or London-Brighton? Or even routes like SeaView?
>Q8) Does the train actually move like a train in MSTS
Well, do you have MOVING AI trains for BVE?

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It doesnt all bore me, i like X-City line.
And i still use Southern Region and have fun comparing Fife route for MsTS and the Aberdeen route (as the first part is the same)
Joe

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Well i have both MSTS and i find personally that BVE is a far more realistic drive! So what if you cannot have external veiws nor have moving trains. There is going to be different veiws no matter what and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Lets not turn this in to a flame war and let everyone voice their veiwsDownload add ons for BVE from http://www.sasva.com/central_trains

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BVE is a better software. MSTS's commands are not as straight forward as BVE. Anyone here is interested to convert the Brighton Mainline to BVE from MSTS? Will be top draw as BVE's graphics will beat the MSTS production hands down.

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>BVE is a better software. MSTS's commands are not as
>straight forward as BVE.
>
>Anyone here is interested to convert the Brighton Mainline
>to BVE from MSTS? Will be top draw as BVE's graphics will
>beat the MSTS production hands down.
That is probably the best thing about BVE the graphics.
It allows for attention to detail and far outways the "Other Sim" in terms of realism. Those who have already tried the 2.9 version will know what I mean. One other advantage is that in BVE it does'nt take three weeks to download a route and six CDs to store it on.
As someone once said Best Value Ever.CheersBryan

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Where can I find the WJMK v 2 route?

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>Where can I find the WJMK v 2 route? It hasn't been released yet.

Julie Anne Driver

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>Anyone here is interested to convert the Brighton Mainline
>to BVE from MSTS? Will be top draw as BVE's graphics will
>beat the MSTS production hands down. You wouldnt be allowed. London- Brighton is a commercial product.

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-03 AT 09:30 PM (EST)

Well Birmingham City South is very accurate indeed. I have a copy of London to Brighton and to be honest it is full of geographic errors and little niggly errors which you just don't find in X-City South.Despite not having moving trains and working windscreen wipers, BVE is still the better simulator and until MSTS2 is (eventually) released it will keep on beating MSTS.Long live BVE

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Ok let's put some perspective back into this.Bve is by far the best (only?) rail sim if prototypical physics and sounds is what you're after, and the fact that it has built-in support for timetabled operations means you get to drive a convincing representation of a train on a route or timetable that could well exist IRL. No other sim has come anywhere near being able to recreate the London Underground or NYCTA as well as Bve does either.I have never owned or played MSTS but what info what I have garnered through research so far in no way changes my lack of interest in it. Trainz is a rapidly-evolving product with a highly-skilled user base, the latest incarnation, TRS2004, is almost entirely script-driven, which opens up a whole raft of possibilities. The sounds and physics are not up to Bve standards yet, but frequently on Auran's Trainz forum, Bve is held up as the model example of how sounds and physics can and should be implemented. I have posted screenies of the BXC just to shock people into realising what it can do, and we mostly hold with this idea that Trainz needs to learn from Bve in this regard, but it's still a highly-addictive and fun thing to have.Before anyone starts, yes, I own Trainz UTC and TRS, I have spent over £200 recently upgrading my PC to run it better, the upside is of course that it's now well capable of dealing with anything Bve can throw at it... how does 16 fps at New Street sound? CiaoSaxon Locomotive Works - "The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer"http://www.zodiac-infosystems.co.uk/rail/bve

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>MS might totally recode it, much better than Kuju at least.Hee, hee - that really is something to look forward to. Just think, if it is coded anything like Windoze, we can look forward to weekly patches, and then patches of patches, followed by patches to fix those. Exciting, no?

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>Hee, hee - that really is something to look forward to.
>Just think, if it is coded anything like Windoze, we can
>look forward to weekly patches, and then patches of patches,
>followed by patches to fix those. Exciting, no?
> At least better, isn't it? MSTS has only two patches so far and it is still not totally fixed.

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Well since I have not played the other two programs yet, though they are getting cheaper now, I could be tempted to load them just to have a look, I can't say nuch,The Gentleman who is upgrading my computer at the computer store calls it toy like and he likes just to leave it run and see if the trains crash.As for Microsoft, you know there defination of a upgrade : To Replace new bugs with the ones there spose to be getting rid of.Yes they add new bugs and thats not saying the old ones will be gone or even better than before.
Tom

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>The Gentleman who is upgrading my computer at the computer
>store calls it toy like and he likes just to leave it run
>and see if the trains crash. Trainz is more toy-like. It is supposed to be a model rail simulator.

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>>The Gentleman who is upgrading my computer at the computer
>>store calls it toy like and he likes just to leave it run
>>and see if the trains crash.
>
>Trainz is more toy-like. It is supposed to be a model rail
>simulator. I like Trainz for it's easyness (if ever such a word existed) I find it easy to couple and un-couple and tafweb has produced lots of exciting scenery that represents a lot of the buildings found in small Surrey towns/villages. Having said that, I haven't played it for well over six months.

--
Nathan Whitington <><

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I got a problem with AI and motion trains. If i'm in the subway or whatever, I don't really notice there being a lack of trains passing me, the static objects aren't too bad. But when i think of AI trains, I think of driving simulations from the old days. When you drive your car and the same exact car is always approaching from the other direction everytime. If it's done like that then i'd probably not be too happy. If it is totally random I'd be fine. But you'll have to add sounds of acceleration and braking with a smooth stop to the AI train too. BVE might be only one step away form this if it's not included in 3.0.

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Correct me if im wrong.. But Does BVE not have a way to up the res from 640x480? thats the reason I play MSTS over BVE

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>Correct me if im wrong.. But Does BVE not have a way to up
>the res from 640x480? thats the reason I play MSTS over BVE It has in BVE 2.9, only until 1024x768.

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Interesting, Perhaps I'll have to try BVE again

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BVE 2.9 was a beta for BVE 3.0 and is not presently available. When BVE 3.0 comes out it will allow 640x480, 800x600, and 1024x768 fullscreen. Adds so much to the realism. It also provides support for the .x file format.Tim Frost
The Union Atlantic Railroad: Your stuff's important!

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but what i found, is most cabs went all blurry, and looked odd.
nobody seemed to work out the real size that cabs should be

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>but what i found, is most cabs went all blurry, and looked
>odd.
>nobody seemed to work out the real size that cabs should be
Hi,Routing about in 2.9 I am pretty sure that the cab bmps are re-mapped to 512X512.I did actually make a rough photographic cab to these dimensions and it loaded perfectly without the blur.CheersBryan

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I shall have to try that, i still have 2.9 somehwhere

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I always find these "BVE Rocks, MTS (or whatever) Sucks" type of debates rather infantile and ultimately pointless. Simple fact, everyone has their preferences, likes and dislikes. Dissing one sim over another is not conducive to mature and constructive debate.BVE is very good and can teach Auran and MS a thing or two. So can Zusi, which has physics to die for, realistic cab, sounds and a highly realistic simulation of the German safety systems. However there are so many misconceptions flying around in this thread a few of them should be laid to rest. Yes, the cab view is important and what we all campaigned for and is where I spend 75% of my time while driving. However why stop there? MTS and Trainz have to survive in a world of commercial reality - how far would Flight Sim or Rally Championship get if all you had was the fixed view out the front of the plane or car? Besides, if I've spent 3 or 4 months labouring in the Route Editor to create a 3D landscape, I like to view my trains travelling through it, or hang off the outside view to give the impression of bellowing out the carriage window.Save run in progress? BVE, er no.Route Editor without scripting, BVE er no. (With all due deference to the third party utility which is being made for route creation).Split, join, shunt or back up your train? BVE, er no.The simple cold fact is MTS has sold something in excess of 1,000,000 copies and has a massive support structure of freeware and payware add ons. So a large proportion of those 1,000,000 must be quite impressed with what's on offer and MS must have done something right.That said, the screenshots I've seen for BVE 3 look very impressive and as I may have posted elsewhere should be required viewing on the development desks at Auran and MS. If MS don't get some news out soon re MTS2 and Auran don't deliver the features still needed in Trainz to deliver a full prototypical sim experience, then it may well become the train sim of choice in 2004.For me, personally, the definitive train sim still waits to be written. It needs to combine the best features of all the programmes listed above (plus a few others), get round route creation in a way which enables good routes to be created much quicker than they can be now and of course be sufficiently popular to guarantee future development.

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Yes, you are right. The definitive train sim waits to be writen.But, it is not so simple:BVE is a freeware writen by Mackoy. I don't know how many lines of coding it need, but we all must remember that:
- a program with 3000 lines (40 sheets) is a safe one. It's quite easy to detect bugs in it.
- a program with 10.000 lines is quite safe. Some bugs are staying, and some patches or new version may correct them.
- a program with 30.000 lines or more (400 sheets) is not safe at more than 90%, in the best way. Nobody is able to write, try, and correct a program like that in an human life without some bugs left.If you had writen a route a day, how many lines or sheets of printing ? Imagine if you create a 400 sheets long route....That's why Windo.. and other programs of that size are full of bugs, backdoors,.....So, we can't have by now an outside wiew of train in BVE. Yes, but BVE is quite bugs free, and full playable.
I think that if Mackoy plan a day to write an outside wiew, bugs will arrive in the same time. And he is alone to code, as I know.
Don't forget what append between BVE 2.4 and BVE 2.53...It's always more easy to complain than to create..For me, it is simple: BVE is full playable, and FREEWARE ! It is a gift from Mackoy to all enthousiasts, and everytime I play BVE, I thanks him for that, and never challenge it with commercials' products. If it is possible to make some criticisms against products you had buy (that's your money...), it isn't about gifts.

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yeah BVE is freeware, but hey, im not scared of spending money

My old Username is cl180!

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Vern,
Where have the screen shots of BVE been posted? I am very interested in seeing them. Thanks.-DJT

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-03 AT 04:15 PM (EST)

VERN My now that is a name I have heard for a while, Welcome back

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I think they were in the General Trainz section on the Auran boards. Unfortunately their forum seems to be down again.On a personal note, I am looking forward to giving BVE 3 a good run. I have a feeling 2004 could be the year the smaller sims strike back - in addition to BVE, Rail 3D is shaping up nicely and the screenshots from the South African Steam Sim are positively drool (tm) worthy.

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Vern,
Like I said earlier, I've come to the conclusion that a the ultimate train sim could be created if it combined the excellent graphics from TRS2004 with the physics from Train Master and the features of BVE (side to side motion and up and down motion with all the track sounds). If I could get this combination I would care less about the outside the cab, "entertainment views".-DJT

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