English 101

Okay, I'm not an English teacher, but I can use Google as well as the next person.
Any questions you have about sentence punctuation or composition or what you're doing wrong, you can find on the web.Since there have been a few posts about grammar in the posts, without starting a flame war or offending anyone here are FOUR simple basics:1. When you're talking (typing) and you need to take a breath, USE A COMMA.2. When you need to STOP to think about something or change the subject, USE A PERIOD.3. A loud calling or crying out, USE THE EXCLAMATION POINT.4. Do not u'se apo's'trophe's' for everything. The rule here is 'When in doubt, Leave it out!'
The apostrophe has three uses:
1) to form possessives of nouns,
2) to show the omission of letters, and
3) to indicate plurals of letters, numbers and symbols. ...
Do not use them to make something PLURAL (more than one)
F7's is proper, and F7s is proper,
but, CD's, PC's, IBM's, car's sale's, hot dog's, radio's, is not.
example (from www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk):
MOT's at this garage (which should read) MOTs at this garage
1000's of bargains here! (which should read) 1000s of bargains here!
New CD's just in! (which should read) New CDs just in! Perdue University maintains database on the subject I have used for years, you can too. http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_apost.htmlFollow these four simple rules in your posts and I'm sure your posts will be a lot easier to read and understand..

db

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English 101: [View All], dadbill, 04:39 AM, Aug-30-03, (0) RE: English 101:, beltontigers, Aug-30-03, 07:15 AM, (1) RE: English 101:, wws04662, Aug-30-03, 07:56 AM, (2) RE: English 101:, Hoosier95, Aug-30-03, 12:57 PM, (3) RE: English 101:, johnfrum, Aug-30-03, 05:01 PM, (6) RE: English 101:, Swissie, Aug-30-03, 05:05 PM, (7) RE: English 101:, MasterChief, Aug-30-03, 05:24 PM, (8) RE: English 101:, Hoosier95, Aug-30-03, 07:30 PM, (12) RE: English 101:, chucksc, Aug-31-03, 09:35 AM, (17) RE: English 101:, Hoosier95, Aug-31-03, 03:05 PM, (20) RE: English 101:, Baldwinbob, Aug-31-03, 04:09 PM, (21) RE: English 101:, chucksc, Aug-31-03, 09:36 PM, (22) RE: English 101:, sniper297, Sep-01-03, 00:25 AM, (24) RE: English 101:, IcyFire, Sep-01-03, 00:59 AM, (25) RE: English 101:, kevarc, Sep-01-03, 01:39 AM, (26) RE: English 101:, DTA, Sep-01-03, 04:56 PM, (28) RE: English 101:, chucksc, Sep-02-03, 01:48 PM, (32) RE: English 101:, DTA, Sep-02-03, 04:23 PM, (35) RE: English 101:, chucksc, Sep-02-03, 04:31 PM, (36) RE: English 101:, DTA, Sep-02-03, 06:27 PM, (37) RE: English 101:, chucksc, Sep-02-03, 10:23 PM, (38) RE: English 101:, IcyFire, Sep-02-03, 10:28 PM, (39) RE: English 101:, smp11512, Sep-01-03, 05:21 PM, (29) RE: English 101:, CBF, Aug-30-03, 01:00 PM, (4) RE: English 101:, imprezzed, Aug-30-03, 02:47 PM, (5) RE: English 101:, sniper297, Aug-30-03, 05:57 PM, (9) RE: English 101:, Hawk, Aug-30-03, 06:15 PM, (10) RE: English 101:, P42number1, Aug-30-03, 06:19 PM, (11) RE: English 101:, DTA, Aug-30-03, 08:26 PM, (13) RE: English 101:, John 136 6000 GO, Aug-30-03, 11:19 PM, (14) RE: English 101:, Motley24Crue2, Aug-31-03, 00:05 AM, (15) RE: English 101:, jtr1962, Sep-01-03, 12:09 PM, (27) RE: English 101:, dadbill, Aug-31-03, 02:30 AM, (16) RE: English 101:, downside, Aug-31-03, 10:22 AM, (18) RE: English 101:, mquist, Aug-31-03, 10:32 AM, (19) RE: English 101:, dadbill, Aug-31-03, 11:53 PM, (23) RE: English 101:, dadbill, Sep-02-03, 12:41 PM, (30) RE: English 101:, calr, Sep-02-03, 01:15 PM, (31) RE: English 101:, dadbill, Sep-02-03, 03:48 PM, (33) RE: English 101:, calr, Sep-02-03, 04:19 PM, (34)

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Glad some1 finally posted some good english rules...Kyle Penn
kfp@vvm.com
--Calling for removal of the immature little children--
*Has the world became so lazy that they can't even find something for themselves??*

"all my life i've been searching for something"

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In summary, I interperate your post in the following manner... "Clear, universal communications is my goal". Taking this one step further, I would also like to add and comment on the use of acronyms associated with text messaging and/or chat. I do not find LOL or LMAO in the English dictionary. "HA HA HA" communcates the same thing and is understood by everyone. Many times I read responses to posts and scratch my head, wondering what the different letter combinations mean.
It would be easier to read some posts, if they were in Spanish, Italian or French or some other language!
Another old guy.... Bill

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My question is, what's the big deal about proper spelling and/or grammer in the forum? The forum is made up of people from all walks of life and varying educational abilities. If a person feels they are educationally superior to others posting in the forums that is fine but keep it to yourself. Some of you need to get off your self made pedestals and back down to the real world.IMO people that complain about poor spelling and grammer are ignorant of the fact some forum members are from another country or honestly don't have the ability to comprehend. I am a retired educator and I can assure you no matter how hard you try there are those that will never learn to spell or put a complete sentence together. I didn't finish high school myself, but managed to attend college attaining a double major in Special Ed and Police Administration. I was also an aircraft inspector for 20 plus years giving me the opportunity to travel the world. Not once in all my years have I ever berated a person for their lack of education or knowledge that some of the forum members think is tatamount to posting in the forums.I have a very good friend that only has an eighth grade education and does well to spell his name let alone putting a proper paragraph togeter. He will not post in this forum because of the constant degradation toward him and others that lack a Phd in English as some of you require. If any of the complainers are not intelligent enough to fully comprehend a less than perfectly spelled post then ignore it or ask for clarification. Do not put that poster down for his/her lack of poor spelling or grammer due to your inability to understand reality. Common sense prevails over intelligence in these cases, but IMO common sense is a serious shortcoming for some forum members.This forum was set up for the express purpose of asking and receiving information about MSTS, not to degrade folks because they don't meet certain members lofty standards. I can only suggest some of you accept reality and try to turn the forum around to what it is designed for, information and help with MSTS. I also understand talking about this is much like beating a dead horse, it ain't gonna rise to the occasion not matter how hard you try.My inflated nickles worth.Ken B.

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I agree with Ken B.Nearly all the people who post here -- whether they've attended "Perdue" University or not -- are guilty of misspelling and less than perfect grammar. What difference does it make? If you can understand what they're trying to say then they're communicating successfully.Nitpicking about grammar is on the same level as criticising someone's creation because it's not absolutely true to prototype. Why not assume that people are trying their best instead of taking offence over something that has nothing to do with you personally?
-JF-

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Hi Ken> IMO people that complain about poor spelling and grammer are ignorant of the fact some forum members are from another country or honestly don't have the ability to comprehend. May I turn your point around a bit: For me as a non-native English speaker, opinions and statements would be a lot easier to understand if the posters in question cared a bit more about correct spelling and most importantly about punctuation and using paragraphs to separate different ideas. In some cases their posts are simply impossible to make sense of, in other cases it takes a couple of turns reading them aloud until - click - the gibberish of mis-spelled words aligns into some approximation of sentences and paragraphs making sense. Frankly, I do not always take the time for that, but rather leave such a post alone with not too high an opinion of its author.Honestly we all must admit that we occasionally mis-spell something in the haste of typing a return, and such an isolated typo should not upset anyone nor should it mutilate the entire post. But the minimum requierement each and every single poster should want to observe is to read through a post before clicking the "PostMessage" button, ensuring that obvious typos are eliminated, sentences are complete, some punctuation and paragraphs are set to facilitate reading. I delibrately wrote "should want to stick to" as I think that posting signals the wish to communicate one's opinion, and this includes the wish to be understood at the receiving end of the line.If for whatever reason a poster wishes not to use his or her brains for that task of proofing one's posts, a spell checker will gladly take the job... Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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> opinions and statements would be a lot
>easier to understand if the posters in question cared a bit
>more about correct spelling and most importantly about
>punctuation and using paragraphs to separate different
>ideas. In some cases their posts are simply impossible to
>make sense of, in other cases it takes a couple of turns
>reading them aloud until - click - the gibberish of
>mis-spelled words aligns into some approximation of
>sentences and paragraphs making sense. Exactly!Well said!MC

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-03 AT 07:31 PM (EDT)

Hi Swissie,In principle I agree with you, but by the same token there are and always will be those posters that have problems with spelling and/or grammer. To elaborate a little further.My main question is why make such a major issue of those posts and not go on to another post if it offends you? Degrading people for their shortcomings is not in the best interest of anybody involved. Be it spelling/grammer, age of member, less than perfect creation or whatever. Like I said this forum was created to inform and educate people about things MSTS, not to give lessons in spelling and grammer or whatever else comes to mind that you feel is beneath your dignity. Constant complaining will only tend to drive some members away as I am sure it has already. Probably to the relief of some of the I-am-better-than-you-are members in fact. Granted there have been a couple of posters that took the poor spelling and grammer to the extreme, but I wonder if it wasn't done intentionally to rile those members that place such a low value on that type of post? The English language is reputedly the most difficult language in the world to learn due to its many ways to spell same sounding words and proper punctuation. Know-No, Threw-Through, Bye-Buy as a small example. It is not uncommon to see some of those examples used in chats or forums, but to get bent out of shape over their incorrect usage is not worth the effort expended. Chronic complainers come to mind.I do not use a spell checker because I have found they can create more harm than good. There are words I often times have trouble with and I figure if on occasion I misspell a word it ain't anything to worry about. I do double check my posts, but there again I am still subject to missing something. I also love to butcher the English language, but in here it is a serious crime so I try to keep it as legible as possible. For a prime example of my word butchering go to the "What I do for a living" thread and read my post. I did that post just out of fun, but there will be a few folks take it serious and make an issue of it I am sure. I can only hope that those that complain the loudest will someday wake up and smell the toast burning thereby cutting a small degree of slack to those less educated than themselves. Remember, it isn't the beginning of the end if a person cannot attain your high standards of the written word. Just keep in mind what you are here for, to inform and help those that rely on the vast MSTS knowledge base found in the forum. If you find a post that doesn't meet your qualifications ignore it and go on to one that does come up to your high standards of spelling and grammer. Nuff said, case closed.Ken B.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-03 AT 09:45 AM (EDT)

How about they are just lazy?
Or are trying to be "cute" or depict themselves as being "in" or "rad"?
How about I can't understand them, and if I can't then I don't bother to answer? At least not in a civil manner.Remember in a face to face encounter you are judged by how you express yourself. In a written medium you are judged by how well you write. We are not talking about occasional mis-spellings or grammar errors. We are talking about total decimation of the written language. I, for one, would never condemn the occasional spelling or grammar or vocabulary error as I make plenty of them, Just not all in the same sentence.You as a teacher making excuses for them, after all let's not traumatize the poor little dears, is what is wrong with the American Educational (you should only laugh) system today. The reason they are functional illiterates is, IMO, due to the intellectual bankruptcy of the policies you espouse. If you teachers would worry more about educating and less about social issues best taught at home then we would not have the 3rd world educational system we do.I am not a Purdue graduate (Don't they sell chickens??? old TV commercial - Frank Perdue - "It takes a tough man to raise a tender chicken!" ) and I can express myself clearly. You people in the educational system need to concentrate on teaching! Leave the political correct B.S. for the losers who invented it. I don't understand what is so hard for the educational community to get across. My father's generation taught people to write proper, albeit plain or simple, English in 8 years. My generation took about the full 12 years to accomplish the same task. Today's educational system has a habit of turning out a significant number of people at the post-graduate level who can not express themselves clearly using the written word. Don't they have to write to get through College/University anymore?
FWIW, I do not have any problem understanding the Non-English speakers on here as they either use a translation program or take more than 10 pico-seconds composing their messages.
Close only works in Horseshoes, Hand-Grenades and Thermonuclear Devices.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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<You as a teacher making excuses for them, after all let's not traumatize the poor little dears, is what is wrong with the American Educational (you should only laugh) system today. The reason they are functional illiterates is, IMO, due to the intellectual bankruptcy of the policies you espouse. If you teachers would worry more about educating and less about social issues best taught at home then we would not have the 3rd world educational system we do.>Hi Chuck,Didn't think this would ever happen but for once I agree with you, but please do not get the impression I am making excuses for students in general. I was a Special Education teacher and that entails kids with learning disabilities for various reasons. Physical, mental and unwillingness to learn and from all walks of life. Your statement is exactly why I am not teaching any longer. The American educational system is in shambles and has been for many years. Teaching has turned into a 9 to 5 job in a sense and the only thing many teachers care about is getting through the day and going home. Not always brought about because of their personal mind set, but by the uncaring attitude of the educational system in general. There are several reasons for the degrading of the educational system and it seems to be getting worse from year to year. Parental control is probably the major reason stemming from the "I don't care" attitude to the families where both parents work and don't have or take the time to get involved with their kids and their education. I read an article about home schooling the other day that pretty much sums up caring parents concern of quality education, or lack thereof with public education. Home schooling is on the rise brought about by those parents that honestly do care about their kids education. Taking them out of an 'I don't care' enviroment and back to teaching the three R's so to speak. It says alot for home schooling when over the past 3 years home schooled kids have won or placed in the top three in the national spelling bee. This year a home schooled young man won the national geography championship. In public schools thousands upon thousands of kids could not even tell you the capital of their home state. A sad commentary on the public school system IMO.Another major factor and one I am most disgusted with is the laws set down about punishment. When I was a youngster I got my skinny little butt pounded on a regular basis. Try that now and see what happens to you if you are a teacher. A teacher has to be very careful as to how they dole out punishment these days I assure you. There is absolutely no control over school kids thes days because of the various laws and regulations set forth by lawmakers and social workers. Parents are another reason these laws are passed. Many parents coddle thier kids and do not feel it is a teachers place to punish thier little darlings. Does the word troublemaker come to mind? I firmly believe the people that pass and enforce these laws need a good horse whipping themselves on a weekly basis to include many parents. So in essence the kids run the schools and the teacher is just there because the law says there has to be an authority figue in place even though they have no real authority.All I am trying to say is, DO NOT get the impression I am taking sides with people that post spelling and grammatical errors in the forum. That certainly is not my intent no matter what you think. As intelligent as you seem you should realize there are many people in this world that do have learning disabilities or shortcomings in many areas. Some of which no doubt are members of the forum. Mine is math and I blame myself because I refused to pay attention in my math classes and for that I have kicked my butt many times. If it were not for the calculator I wold be lost to say the least.The main gist of my posts about spelling and grammer is that some of the forum members need to lighten up a tad and give the benifit of doubt to those that do write poorly written posts. Pass it up if the post offends you, but to make an issue of those posts are adding fuel to the flame.Ken B.

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<<< A teacher has to be very careful as to how they dole out punishment these days I assure you. There is absolutely no control over school kids these days...>>> Well…I think a trip back in time would do some of these smart assed kids now days some good.Back in the 60s there was a history teacher/basketball coach at Duluth Central named Jim Hastings, this guy would take NO crapola from anyone. Someone got smart and he would simply say, “Could you step out in the hall for a moment”. After hearing a person bounced off the lockers a few times the class was well behaved. Before someone screams brutality, these students were in the eleventh grade, not little kids.After 3 years of taking 9th grade English you’d think my punctuation would be better, but, I DO know Charles Dickens’ “Great Expectations” frontward and backwards.Bob

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You know Ken that is one of the root problems in my opinion.
Teachers who give a $hit are being driven out by the mediocre, don't make waves. protect my pension mind set of the administrators and some of the other teachers. We are slowly lowering the system to its least common denominator...IMHO, We will pay a terrible price as a society if we don't fix that problem.....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Teachers who give a $hit are being driven out by the popular media bashing of teachers.I had a dream several years ago that would have delighted Sigmund Freud.
I was in a typical vacant lot with about 100 children aged 5 to 10. Along with the usual trash, weeds, and broken glass there was a small charcoal fire, a 3x5 foot sheet steel plate on it, and a large box of frozen chicken. No vegetables or fries, no napkins, plates, utensils, or anything else. We do the best with what we have tho, so I opened the box and grabbed two pieces of chicken and put them on the improvised grill. I looked up for a minute to see what the children were doing, and when I turned back the box of frozen chicken was gone. So what I had left was two pieces of chicken to feed 100 children.That dream pretty much sums up what it's like to teach in the inner city, too many kids, not enough adult help, not enough resources, and if you turn around someone steals what few resources you have.Those of you who want to believe the popular media BS about incompetent lazy teachers, I suggest you go to the nearest large city and volunteer as a classroom aide for a few months. I guarantee they'll be happy to have you, and I also guarantee that while you might meet one or two lazy incompetent overpaid babysitters, you'll find that the overwhelming majority of public school teachers pour their hearts and souls into their children every day. You'll also deal with a hell of a lot of discipline problems that can't be sent to reform school because there aren't enough reform schools. The majority of the parents you'll meet will be incompetent, indifferent, or even openly hostile. As I did, you'll see things like a mother tooting up coke in the playground on her way in for a disciplinary conference about her child's behavior. Two drunken mothers throwing chairs at each other at the Christmas pageant. You'll find the education system is not designed to deal with the problems these kids have, most arrive in Kindergarten with no home training at all, other than potty training. The attitude seems to be "I done raised him the first five years, now he's your problem". Obviously that's not the teacher's job, but if they don't take over raising the kid it's impossible to teach him anything. Most never complain about it, they teach the kids all the things their parents should have so they can get to the stuff they're supposed to teach, deal with the disruptions and discipline problems, and dig into their own pockets to buy learning materials that should have been supplied by the system.The real reason "Johnny can't read" has nothing to do with the public school system or the teachers, it's the parents that need fixing. Walk a mile in their shoes before you go criticizing schoolteachers.

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-03 AT 01:08 AM (EDT)

The majority of teachers are pretty caring, From a students POV, school really becomes a popularity contest, and thats why there attention drifts, also some people, just feel that life blows and it ain't worth learning anything P.S. This post contained 6 fat-finger typos before the spell checkEdit: It sounded like a rant about my life, which was not the goal, So i summed it up

____________________________________________
Shawn K, shawnssk@yahoo.com
Texture dude for TKW & YLW, Forum Mod. Feel free to e-mail me.

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Maybe so, but not from what I have seen here. In 7 years of public school, my son's US teachers on thewhole were taking up classrom space. The only teachers that really worked with the kids were the French Immersion tachers and all but 1 were from Europe or Canada. Last year he wanted out of the program, it wasn't fun anymore. So out he came. He went into a regular classroom. He missed the honors program by 2 points and the color of his skin ( this was told to me by one of the administrators ). He was at least a year ahead of most of the kids in his class. But since they had to teach to the slowest learner, he was extremely bored. I made numerous trips to the school and literally begged the teachers to give him extra work to keep him challenged. Their solution - told me to have him bring a book to class and read. So my son spent the year reading books, not learning. Btw, they did away with the advanced class for the kids who did not make the honors program. Why, you ask? Because it was unfair to the slower learners, it hurt their self-esteem. Needless to say I was totally po'ed.This year my son goes to a private school. It is costing me a small fortune, but it is best for him. Guess what. He WANTS to go to school this year. No fighting to get him up. No fighting to get him out the door for the bus. He is excited to go. Everyone gets a book, didn't last year in the public school, they didn't have enough to go around. In the last three years, EVERY KID graduating this school went to college on a scholarship. Many ended up in the honors program.They need to quit worrying about little Johnny's self-esteem and start worrying about whether Johnny can read. The parents are at fault to. Not just when both work, many of the others who could take an active role don't. Some don't care, others just don't know how to be parents.I don't think home schooling is the answer either. The interaction between kids at school is important for the developement of the child. Home schooling kids do not get it as much. And this hurts them when they get older and have to face things in the world they are not equipped to handle.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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Glad to see you back Kevin, despite your self imposed exile.I agree with you 100% over what you have written, the same problems are both in the US and UK, but my children made it through in happier times.What I do not understand, is your concern over education, but your intolerance for people who want to learn on the forums here. Good teachers are rare animals, and require patience and understanding, and the ability to pass information on that is both accurate and interesting. We can all try to copy this to some extent whenever we pass on what knowledge we have. To criticise one set of people, when your own teachings are somewhat abrupt, smacks of hypocrasy.Sniper is a perfect example of how to do it. Informative yet witty.David

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Bull $hit David!
Nice try on starting a fight between sniper and Kevin though!Sniper is NOT the typical teacher in my opinion or experience....
Especially in an inner city school. A lot of the people like him have been driven out of the educational system in my experience!My kids and now my grandkids went to/go to suburban schools (read well financed) and the criticism I levied was against those schools. There is NO EXCUSE for Fairfax County School District to have the Same kinds of discipline and achievement problems the District of Columbia School District does - but they do, just not quite as many and in isolated pockets, not systemic like DC's are!For the inner city schools some of Sniper's comments are right on... But there is no excuse for failure in the Suburban Schools IMO....BTW, Before I joined the government I worked for an IT Vendor in the DC metro area and used to make support calls on various DC Public Schools Locations. The DC schools have one of the top ten expenditures per student in the continental US... They also have one of the lowest ten achievement rates on standardized tests in the Continental US.... Locally they are known as DC Fools because of their administrative and educational incompetence (not to mention the widely held perception that they are just plain down corrupt)! There are very few upscale schools syphoning the funds in the DC school system and the majority of the administration and staff, like the population of the District, is of minority ethnic derivation so that old dog (prejudice - I.E. "the white schools are stealing from the black schools" or the "Upscale Neighborhood Schools are taking from the Downscale Neighborhood Schools") won't hunt either.... So the problem must be elsewhere.... Like one of the highest administrator to staff ratios in the US. The administrators being paid at the 95th percentile nationally and the staff (teachers) being paid at the 60th percentile and (My favorite) One of the highest budgets for capital equipment on a per-capita basis in the US and one of the lowest student access ratio to technology in the US....
IMHO, The DC school system, en toto, is exactly where the rest of the country will be if we don't "fix" the educational system. It has to accomidate the Least Common Denominator and the Over achievers and everything in the middle... IMO that means concentrating on their core mission, education, and staying out of the social welfare stuff... If as Jim says there are problems with the society the kids come from that has to be fixed also, just not by the schools... There are different agencies for that....


Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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You seem to read things into anything Chuck. To be honest, I haven't a clue what you are on about. I was making a general opinion, and I am not particularly interested in percentiles or techno speak, just a perceived reduction in education for everybody, both here and in the US.David

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-03 AT 04:34 PM (EDT)

>You seem to read things into anything Chuck. To be honest, I
>haven't a clue what you are on about. "What I do not understand, is your concern over education, but your intolerance for people who want to learn on the forums here. "Is what I was on about....
I read that as a gratuitous ad homonym attack aimed at Kevin that may well exercerbate old wounds and I perceive you doing that a lot....>and I am not particularly interested in percentiles or techno speakActually my point there is that the educational community, at least in the States, is not accountable and resists any kind of formal measurement. I am trying to locally quantify their failure ... Those of us with an Engineering or Scientific Education tend to do that, Measure things.> just a perceived reduction in education for
>everybody, both here and in the US. And that part I'll agree with you on 100%!
Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Nobody uses "ad homonym"! and shouldn't it be ad hominem? While Latin is very useful for understanding english, I don't think it has much purpose on these forums. Perhaps you should look at my post again. I don't see any advantage in Kevin leaving here, despite his cryptic approach to others. I only mentioned Sniper, as he is a good example of someone who helps others and also tones down any spats that occur.Sadly, that is not in my nature, and I don't think I am going to change my attitude that much.What gets me is the so called Christian, (the anti Rich Garber one), who decided to send me 3 virus attacks. How do you equate that with christianity? I am not a Christian, as such, but I did not retaliate.Even if you believe in God, there is no way that He represents a Countries beliefs. You have your latest Vietnam in Iraq, because of a narrow mindset, that does not tolerate others.Communism was always destined to fail, because it is too idealistic, and doesn't account for human frailties. Getting the Middle/Far east out of their middle-aged system will take a lot longer. Especially now they have guns etc.David

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Yawn!BTW, I have now alerted you for making a banned political post....
You guys never learn.Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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And Since my stupid ISP is having difficulty routing to the hotmail server, I'll just procede to lock it here and now

____________________________________________
Shawn K, shawnssk@yahoo.com
Texture dude for TKW & YLW, Forum Mod. Feel free to e-mail me.

____________________________________________
READ the forum rules!
Have a general question? Try Google
Looking for an answer to a Train-Sim Question? Search the Forum Archive First
Looking for a certain Trainsim add-on? See Here First!

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-03 AT 05:29 PM (EDT)

I think that most of what Ken B is saying is right on the Nail, But I do agree with alot of other people as well , Southern Pacific will live on forever in the hearts of the Red and Gray Railfans
Shane Palus
smp1151@sbcglobal.net

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Not to contradict the original post, but I think this stuff is coming from the ones who use chat rooms a lot. They have developed an abreviated and bastardised form of language to facilitate speed typing. Also, they do not use long sentences or paragraphs. It all takes too long. In time, some of their stuff will filter down into every day usage.I, too, was taught English 101, and too long in the tooth to change.Cheers, all;Chuck F.

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My personal favourite....read bugs the hell out of me....is people who.....put numerous.....periods....in their.....sentences.......which nearly...makes....the post....impossible.....to.....read.

I wanna highball it through Woodstock, Ont. on none other than...THE TURBOTRAIN!!!

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Sentencesthatrunonandonandonwithnoendareactuallyworsethantoomuchpunctuation.IMAO any criticism of other's English is ostentatious, as long as they communicate effectively with who they wish to communicate it's not a problem for them. If it's a problem for you don't read it.http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID5/6784.htmlCheck numbers 10, 26, and 27 in that thread, b101uk's spelling is worse than my father's. No one criticised tho, (EEK! I spelled "though" incorrectly!) since his ideas and formulas were helpful, altho (there I go again!) painful to decipher. I used to proofread and correct all my father's letters prior to the era of desktop computers, Dad was a very intelligent man but had a mental block about spelling. I have a mental block about math, before the invention of the pocket calculator my wife used to have to balance the checkbook. After computers and word processors, I set my Dad up with a word processor with a spell checker, and still had to proofread and correct letters he typed, sysn in mennee kayses he kudnt kum klowse eenuff four the spellchecker to even guess what he meant.For me, reading, spelling, phonics was a gift, I was reading college level by the time I hit fifth grade. That makes it difficult to understand why others have trouble with it. But I spent the last ten years teaching first and second grade reading, and for me that really underlined what the whole problem is with the English language - there are way too many rules, and way too many variations of exceptions to each and every rule.
"ough" is only one example of the problem, tough, thought, through, though = tuff, thawt, thru, tho. You just have to memorize all the exceptions since there's no real logic or pattern to them.An old joke among primary grade reading teachers, "How do you spell FISH?"Answer, GHOTI spells fish.GH as in "enouGH" (pronounced F)
O as in "wOmen" (short i sound)
TI as in moTIon (pronounced SH)

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-03 AT 06:17 PM (EDT)

Go ghigur! Hawk"First thing I remember knowin', was that lonesome whistle blowin'-And a yungun's dream of growing up to ride-
On a freight train leavin' town, not knowin' where I'm bound.
No-one could steer me right-But Mama tried."

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*cough*
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/6344.html
Lord, Give me strengh...

Mommy says the sun comes out in the morning

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I have to agree with Sniper. As long as the meaning is clear, I don't see any proplem with ungrammatical posts. I guess you have all seen Steve Hawking. He looks subnormal, and has produced some of the most profound statements on the Universe since Einstein, (who failed at elementary school, by the way). I like good english, and try to keep my posts that way, but I don't regard it as essential on forums. David

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I agree with David's comments, also. We all make occasional spelling errors, and I'm sure we all have some spelling situations which cause us problems (like double-letters in some words, for example). It's when spelling errors become major distraction that maybe a comment might be appropriate - provided it's a tactful comment.More serious is the complete abscence of punctuation, since that can make an otherwise good post into gibberish. Very frequent bad grammar can also have similar effect. I think that most of us whose first language is English (including the variations in different parts of the world) can distinguish between someone for whom English is a foreign language and those who are simply being careless.The key point to remember about spelling and grammar is that they are there to help make communication clearer. If a post is very difficult to understand, then we have the option of either ignoring it or asking for clarification.I also agree with other posters who have asked that some of the chat-room abreviations not be used. For the many of us who don't use chat programs, we don't need them therefor don't know them. In the context of of a chat situation, those abreviations are sound (like the older telegrapher's abreviations) as a means of speeding up the process. That need doesn't exist here, since we can take the time to write things out properly. Of course, some of these are slowly filtering into general use - but caution is needed.Cheers allJohn

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SniperI have to say that most if not all of your post make me laugh
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID15/1513.html#9Robert Steskal
Philadelphia, Pa

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>IMAO any criticism of other's English is ostentatious, as
>long as they communicate effectively with who they wish to
>communicate it's not a problem for them. If it's a problem
>for you don't read it. I don't care about the occasional error in spelling or grammer. The problem is when the post is so poorly written that I haven't a clue what the person is trying to say. Sadly, the number of these types of posts both here and everywhere else seems to be on the rise. To make it worse, slang is often thrown in and then the post becomes completely incomprehensible. The main problem I have is that large numbers of spelling and grammatical errors make a person sound ignorant even if that isn't the case. In these fora the only impression you get of a person is the written word.BTW, I tend to think that 90% of the blame for why Johnny can't read or write these days falls on the parents. They're the ones who get all sorts of idiotic school policies put into effect that hinder teaching and make the good teachers leave in disgust. Why grade the poor dears when bad grades hurt their self-esteem? Why do spelling and grammer matter if they get the point across? Heaven forbid we should use corporal punishment to maintain discipline(sadly this is all that works for some children). The list goes on and on. Another thing I find annoying is when the classroom is used to further some social agenda. I remember in the early 1990s in NYC we used valuable classroom time to teach children about Heather's two mommies when most of them couldn't read or write. And now we must also use scarce resources for afterschool and preschool programs, as well as meals, because the parents can't be bothered to make their own arrangements for their children. In effect, we now have state-subsidized child care. It frankly scares me to think the generation currently in the schools will eventually be running things. Small wonder the US is rapidly becoming a Third World country.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-03 AT 02:34 AM (EDT)

Hi! It's me again..I WASN'T trying to OFFEND anyone, just trying to make life a little easier for everyone.>"Clear, universal communications is my goal".
Okay, Sounds Good.
>some forum members are from another country
Okay, I was schooled outside the US, in two foreign countries, myself.
>whether they've attended "Perdue" University or not
Nope, not me. I simply discovered their wealth of information, which I try to pass on to you!
>mis-spellings
Woah! I never said a word about anyone's spelling..
>Degrading people for their shortcomings
Wait- Time Out, I wasn't degrading anyone- My main point I think got missed- and that is, the internet- this information superhighway, really can be used for getting information!
I gave examples of two good websites that can help.Check out the OWL website, it has topics on each of the issues everyone has raised here;
Grammar, Punctuation, Spelling and Exercises, try it!Their 'Table of Contents' site is located here:http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/

db

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>My main point I think got missedshould beI think my main point was missed 'To boldly go where noone has gone before' is the best example of a split infinitive.

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-03 AT 10:34 AM (EDT)

I usually skip these silly posts but I read this one and I will make a few comments - I promise not to reply to any other of these threads. When I write a technical report at work I check it thoroughly with a spell checker and reread it several times and the I send it to the department AA (administrative assistant) for her review and she is a first rate tech writer. But here I haven't the time or the resources to go to those lengths to get perfect prose. Also it's no fun.Posts about grammar are no fun!Sure every one should do the best he can and I myself have chuckled about the guys who make twelve word post and manage to missspell thirteen words. If its unintellagable (that one is probably misselled but I just don't care) I skip the post. This is suposed to be fun and my posts are not formal technical writing nor english compositions. My favorite error - I due this a lot when I have reports do. English love it or leave it!Be Seeing you.
Michael

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-03 AT 11:56 PM (EDT)

I think someone put it very well in another post when they said:"If someone is not worried about small details like spelling, why would they worry about small details like a directory name?"
Look, I'll shorten it to THREE basic rules: comma, period and apostrophe!1. When you need to take a breath, USE A COMMA.2. When you need to STOP or change the subject, USE A PERIOD.3. Don't use APOSTROPHES for everything. When in doubt, Leave it out!Keep it simple, and don't get mad!

db

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In a closing thought; Everyone NEW to the forum SHOULD READ the forum rules. I think it is stated very clearly in the second sentence: "Imagine yourself being invited into OUR home. We have invited guests from around the world to join in. Each of these guests come from different sociological, geographical, political, financial, and religious backgrounds. We will supply the place in which to gather, but please understand that all of the guests here are our friends. If one comes in here and insults our other guests, pick fights, is rude, or generally disrupts the flow of our gathering, they will be asked to tone it down or leave. The rest of us just want to converse. However, this does not mean that our guests can't debate like adults (i.e. with respect and thoughtfulness). This also does not mean that our guests have to agree on everything, but again just act like an adult that has been invited into someone else's home!" You wouldn't come into your grandparents' home, for example, and talk a bunch of slang they wouldn't understand...One of the things that is so great about this website is not only its diversity, but also the range of ages. We have from twelve to seventies (and maybe even a few beyond) here. It's one of the wonderful things about trains, they can captivate both young and old.Let's keep communicating in a way that we can all understand!Take some time with your posts. read them back before posting, and edit.Let's keep communicating in a way that we can all understand!

db

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OK, I'm a 58 year old kid who plays with virtual trains! I consider myself a very good speller. However, I can't type worth a damn!Now, mister non-English teacher, what is the rule for capitalizing compass directions. I seem to recall that you don't capitalize if the name refers to a direction, but you do capitalize if it is part of a place name.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
Columbia Gorge Route (Phase 1 UP side 95%, BNSF side 85%)

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Hi Cal!!
You know what's weird? I used to go to school with a Carl Rasmussen, how spooky is that?? I personally use the two-finger typing approach...Let's look it up... again go to the OWL website: http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_caps.html and look under:"Directions that are names"I can't post what they say, there's a copyright, but the answer is there. It's a great resource.

db

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Thanks. I was close!Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
Columbia Gorge Route (Phase 1 UP side 95%, BNSF side 85%)

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