Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?

This question is aimed at those who abandoned MSTS for various reasons because they liked Trainz 2004 more. Why did you abandon MSTS, and what is it about Trainz 2004 that you enjoy more than MSTS?I may be one of those abandoning MSTS for Trainz 2004, and want to hear opinions from those who happily dumped MSTS for Trainz 2004.

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RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, NW 1218, Sep-15-04, 04:30 PM, (1) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, Stetrain12, Sep-15-04, 05:57 PM, (2) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, wws04662, Sep-15-04, 05:58 PM, (3) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, Wulf_9, Oct-05-04, 09:25 AM, (19) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, smallspy, Oct-06-04, 02:23 AM, (20) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, BNSF4723, Oct-06-04, 03:46 AM, (21) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, Wulf_9, Oct-06-04, 08:01 AM, (22) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, wws04662, Oct-07-04, 10:13 AM, (23) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, caintrain, Sep-16-04, 03:01 AM, (4) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, rabid_david, Sep-16-04, 05:56 AM, (5) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, Stetrain12, Sep-16-04, 04:33 PM, (6) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, rabid_david, Sep-17-04, 04:02 AM, (8) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, dansherman, Sep-16-04, 06:53 PM, (7) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, rjhowie, Sep-17-04, 10:04 PM, (9) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, Vern, Sep-19-04, 01:28 PM, (10) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, Mousy, Sep-19-04, 06:52 PM, (11) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, lnghairedwizard, Sep-24-04, 01:32 AM, (12) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, NW 1218, Sep-30-04, 07:21 AM, (13) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, BNSF4723, Oct-03-04, 06:59 AM, (14) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, philskene, Oct-04-04, 06:39 AM, (15) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, rabid_david, Oct-04-04, 10:23 AM, (16) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, Stetrain12, Oct-04-04, 01:07 PM, (17) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, rabid_david, Oct-05-04, 03:42 AM, (18) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, Stetrain12, Oct-07-04, 04:12 PM, (24) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, NW 1218, Oct-07-04, 10:19 PM, (25) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, johnclift, Oct-08-04, 07:29 AM, (27) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, Vern, Oct-08-04, 10:01 AM, (28) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, johnclift, Oct-08-04, 11:39 AM, (29) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, Vern, Oct-08-04, 12:50 PM, (30) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, johnclift, Oct-11-04, 06:54 AM, (31) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, james73, Oct-12-04, 08:17 PM, (32) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, shovelnose, Oct-08-04, 03:15 AM, (26) RE: Happier with Trainz 2004 instead of MSTS?, edwardk, Oct-17-04, 05:35 AM, (33)

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I will never "dump" MSTS for TRAINZ. Trainz requires much higher standerds for a computer. Plus, it looks like a toy. Trainz will never loose it's "toyish" look, yet MSTS is able to achieve a sense of realism where when you look at a picture, some people are fooled.

John Means
MASW Founder and President
The MASW site is www.freewebs.com/klwtrainsim

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-04 AT 06:00 PM (EDT)

Although Trainz does have the soft focus graphics that can make it look "toyish" I have moved to it from MSTS because even though it is slightly more system demanding, it is incredibly more flexible and can easily handle much higher detail content than MSTS. The downloaded content management that lets you easily share parts between locos/rolling stock without having to do anything other than enter an ID number in the config file is also great, as well as not having to have many copys of the same content so it can be used by multiple routes. The route editor in TRS2004 is much simpler to use, and doesn't quickly give you giant headaches. The flexibility with scripting alows you to have a locomotive or menu do just about anything you could ever dream of, for instance someone recently made a script to allow locomotives to be started/shut down from controls inside of the 3d cab, even though this functionality was not included in the original game. The ability also to not be stuck in a single consist and keep several trains going at once under your control is extremely easy, and they were actually smart enough to put a consist editor(you can even place on on the tracks without having to save it if you want) INSIDE THE GAME ITSELF which allows you to try out new rolling stock without having to fire up a seperate program. These are just a few reasons, adn there are many, many more which I won't take the time to list, but to sum it up MSTS seems too confined and "clunky" to me.

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>This question is aimed at those who abandoned MSTS for
>various reasons because they liked Trainz 2004 more. Why
>did you abandon MSTS, and what is it about Trainz 2004 that
>you enjoy more than MSTS?
>
>I may be one of those abandoning MSTS for Trainz 2004, and
>want to hear opinions from those who happily dumped MSTS for
>Trainz 2004. I have not abandoned MSTS for TRS2004 so I have to sayNO I would not be happy if I dumped MSTS for Trainz. General performance problems got worse with each and every service pack release for TRS2004.. TRS2004 lost its luster. Auran has virtually abandoned their own forums except to chastise someone for making a comment they don't like. Tech Support has gone down the tubes. No more help desk, no responses in the forums, no documentation updates to cover features introduced in the service packs.
Bill

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-04 AT 09:26 AM (EDT)

Originally posted by wws04662
> Auran has virtually abandoned their own forums except to
>chastise someone for making a comment they don't like. Tech
>Support has gone down the tubes. No more help desk, no
>responses in the forums, no documentation updates to cover
>features introduced in the service packs.
>
>
>Bill This is complete and utter bullshit.

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Good comeback Wulf... *rolls eyes*I'm not currently a fan of either sim...both have their advantages, both have their disadvantages, and I'm not going to get into either one.But how about instead of just claiming that what one person has said as just sheer "bullshit", why not present a well-formed counter-argument, and let the rest of us decide if what he posted was in fact bullshit?DanAbsolute power corrupts absolutely.

www.greatlakesrail.com

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>But how about instead of just claiming that what one person
>has said as just sheer "bullshit", why not present a
>well-formed counter-argument, and let the rest of us decide
>if what he posted was in fact bullshit?
>
>Dan Probably because the truth hurts. Auran is starting to notice that people are getting pissed off with all these different versions and all the damn upgrades that are needed to keep up to date. They are also noticing that in terms of real life railroading, Trainz doesn't come to within an inch of what MSTS produces for us.Alright, that was a bit harsh, I don't mean to start a flame war here, this is just my opinion.

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Hi Dan,I don't need to "prove" anything - one good read of the Auran forum will reveal that the completely baseless statements made above are, in fact, just that - a load of hot air.Saxon Locomotive Works - "The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer"http://www.zodiac-infosystems.co.uk/rail/bve

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-04 AT 10:14 AM (EDT)

>Hi Dan,
>
>I don't need to "prove" anything - one good read of the
>Auran forum will reveal that the completely baseless
>statements made above are, in fact, just that - a load of
>hot air.
>
>Saxon Locomotive Works - "The difficult we do immediately;
>the impossible takes a little longer"
>
>http://www.zodiac-infosystems.co.uk/rail/bve
Wulf_9's perceptive may be correct from the vantage point of a member of a content development group. Auran has continued a high level of support for these groups. Wulf_9 has established himself as a guru in the Trainz scripting community and I have the utmost respect for his work and contributions. To state that my comments are pure horse pucky is understandable from his vantage point. I am sure that he and other members of TPR have more than casual contact and communication with the people at Auran. We, the individual users have lost almost all contact with the major players at Auran.Since Auran has changed its support policy to a content development group only concept, the individual developers have been relegated to 2nd class citizenship status in the Trainz community. Individuals who attempt to create content for Trainz now have to rely on their own ingenuity or the assistance of others. I present the following chart showing the post totals by the various Auran reps. I realize that this probably does not include every person from Auran that posts in the forums, but these are the people that I am familiar with. Trends?? Yes... TRS2004 is released in the fall of 2003... 200+ posts per month from the Brew Crew.... SP1 released.... Activity slows down. No major bugs introduced with this Service Pack... SP2 released and there is a spike in activity in April and May... June brings on the Trainz Partnership policy that focused Auran’s support to organized groups of content creators. I may not have achieved my bachelor's degree in math, but I see a drastic drop in forum participation by the major players of the Brew Crew in the last year. Primary forum contact with Auran has been taken over by a couple of new kids on the block... So, if anyone feels that my statement that Auran's participation in the forums has virtually disappeared is pure horse pucky, then I apologize to anyone offended. Bill

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I gave up on MSTS right after the first version of Trainz came out. I have been very happy with it. I have had no problems with any of the versions. As far as support, they put all other companies I have dealt with to shame. They announced that The helpdesk is in the process of being converted over, so the email address may not be functioning as it has in the past. In the past it usually only took a day or so to get an answer.I have not regretted my Trainz experience.

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I liked Trainz originally because it was like a giant model railway. The latest incarnation tries very hard to compete with MSTS but for those who prefer driving & operating to building it still lacks the all important activity editor. However the by far the biggest fly in the ointment is the lack of commercial 3rd party support in Trainz. With the number of commercial and routes & locos for MSTS seemingly on the increase Trainz in it's present guise unfortunately seems destined to be ignored by the vast majority of simmers. Harsh but true.

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-16-04 AT 04:35 PM (EDT)

Lack of commmercial support? As I recall there are a few route and scenery packages, and nearly a hundred payware locomotives availible. If you mean that the company does not openly support it, I wonder if you have the idea that microsoft does As far as service packs go, all of the new Sp2 functionality is outlined in an online document and several new sample files. The official content cretion guide is currently being updated, and helpdesk has had many spam problems, and is moving to a new webpage-based system(I wonder if the MSTS help desk(not the machine that spits out "The problem is with your machine") has spam problems?)Sp3 though, was a rushed patch to fix a problem which a large number of people were having, but Auran couldn't quite replicate. There are now some major issues with it, and most people don't use it.As far as the negative posts to Auran, there are only as many of them as there are massive locked-post flamewars and group rivalries there are here

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-04 AT 04:04 AM (EDT)

>Lack of commmercial support? As I recall there are a few
>route and scenery packages, and nearly a hundred payware
>locomotives availible.Hmm, I'm sorry but as someone who was once very enthusiastic about Trainz I find the 3rd party (i.e. companies other than Auran) support extremely disappointing compared to the commercial interest in MSTS. Unfortunately with the constant changes to the product and the ensuing problems with version compatibility in the past Auran have not always helped the situation themselves. With the passage of time things may improve; perhaps what it needs to rekindle interest are more complete "packages"; routes/locos/activities ready-to-play. I think TPR are the only people which seem to have anything near that which is a shame. If a product such as Cascades Crossing or Surfliner was made available for Trainz I would certainly be up for a copy.

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>This question is aimed at those who abandoned MSTS for
>various reasons because they liked Trainz 2004 more. Why
>did you abandon MSTS, and what is it about Trainz 2004 that
>you enjoy more than MSTS?
>
>I may be one of those abandoning MSTS for Trainz 2004, and
>want to hear opinions from those who happily dumped MSTS for
>Trainz 2004. It was a dead heat until Auran's patch-SP3, now it is MSTS by a mile.
SP3 got rid of the stutters cause it is always caching.

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I still have MSTS mainly because of the access to various tram routes (incl UK and continental)- a subject I'm interested in. However I spend more time now with Trainz as I am working on a city tram network then I might try my hand at possibly the N.I.Railway system. Compared to MSTS it is "easier" if the right word to use for a novice like me to build and with the Download Station, brilliant. That kind of flexibility doesn't exist with the alternative to Trainz. I could never have got as far along as I have in building with MSTS.
Bobby

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By commercial routes you really need to judge by what can be bought on the shelves in the shops. Now the amount of content carried in the large software stores for MSTS has diminished of late here in the UK but you can usually spot a Severn Valley Railway, West Somerset or Cambrian add pack in most Game or PC World stores. For Trainz...nada.There could be any number of reasons for this, for the most part I suspect because support for Trainz has always seemed a bit parochial being very much focused on Auran's own Download Station and forums with its KUID's, Planet Auran membership etc. Not much point selling a route if the user has to download various items from Planet Auran to make it work. Independent distribution of content while not prohibited does not exactly seem to have been encouraged by Auran. Then we have the compatability issue. For all its faults, MSTS is essentially the same version as first went on sale in June 2001. Trainz came out later and has gone through at least 3 major revamps together with changes wrought by the service packs. Not much incentive to put a team together and build a route if by the time it goes on sale it's either no longer compatible or doesn't work with the next SP. If SP3 is indeed the last major tinkering with Trainz that situation could change.Finally you still have the limitations on activity creation. For all the additional features in SP2 or SP3 unless you are a whizz at scripting you are still pretty much stuck with "tour mode". You can assign schedules to AI drivers - but from what I've seen not drive them yourself.For all the above I do actually quite like Trainz - Surveyor has several advantages over the MSTS RE (plus a few big disadvantages too) and it's only inertia which has prevented me thus far from creating content, albeit freeware.

Chief Track Welder

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-19-04 AT 06:53 PM (EDT)

I wouldn't be happy if I left MSTS for Trainz. I play TRS2004 when I want to get away from all the Kuju bugs, but when I want to get back to 'reality' I go back to MSTS.

SD40-2: the best locomotive EMD ever made!
______________________________________________
Fort Worth Locomotive Shops
ENG & WAG Technician & Lighting Engineer

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RE:"Although Trainz does have the soft focus graphics that can make it look "toyish" I think alot of the "toyish" look of trainz objects can probably be remedied by using larger, more detailed textures with weathering.Longhairedwizard

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You said it. Trainz=Fantasy MSTS=Reality

John Means
MASW Founder and President
The MASW site is www.freewebs.com/klwtrainsim

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I downloaded the demo version of TRS2004 tonight... I meant to buy it about 6 months ago but it was just too damn expensive via Auran's online shop, and still is pretty expensive.Anyway, I really enjoy all the new features, including steam locomotives and mostly commodities and stuff. However, the graphics still seem to be the same old washed out pastel stuff from Trainz v1.0. Theres still alot fo the old bugs as well. I may buy it still... however I would never abandon MSTS for it, it just isn't good enough.

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Hi John -Would you like to reconsider your assertion after looking at the picture below !!Cheers,
Phil

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It is beautiful, but a nicely done loco doesn't make the core program any better! I'm sure VMD would make a quite a packet if they did some stuff for MSTS.

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I doubt it. The amount of detail they would have to take off(especially changing that beautiful cab to 2d) probably wouldn't make it the same quality level.

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The 3D cabs are nice; indeed they are the way ahead, however a well drawn 2D cab like one of MLT's will do the job just as well until the next gen arrives to replace MSTS i.e. Trainmaster TS, Train Artisan TS, or Auran TS.

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It also isn't just the cab or loco, but take a look outside and the track and scenery(not a jagged edge or pixelated texture to be found)

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-04 AT 10:21 PM (EDT)

No Phil, I wouldn't compared to the other things I have seen, download, or bought for MSTS.

John Means
MASW Founder and President
The MASW site is www.freewebs.com/klwtrainsim

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Get TRS 2004. It's fantastic. I used to spend hours and hours on MSTS but since I got 2004, I've never been near it. Haven't the time. Always on Trainz. Done 8 hours a day for the last three days.
The sound is better (hear the rising whine of a British Rail 125 as you power it up!) the clicking of the rails at high speed is just excellent, slack action, it's all there. The avility to jump around different trains, see them roll past from another train, the graphics you get used to after an hour (quicker if you turn gamma down).
Best of all, within three hours my 9 year old son was building bridges and cities and all sorts of stuff. So inspired, I had a go. Couldn't believe how easy stuff is! In half a day I had a MASSIVE lay-out. With MSTS you needed a degree in pure and applied maths and a programming language, with TRS 2004 all you need is a few cigarettes and a jug of coffee.
It's SO much more stable than the last load of rubbish (I threw the last one away in the bin in disgust). It never crashes in spite of my incompetence.
But best of all, the buzz of driving around in a route you created is just so special. Can't wait to get out of work and get back to it. Hours pass in seconds. Get it. Can't believe something so incredible only cost me £30. Get it.

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Unless you've got a different version to mine, out the box the HST's use a generic GM sound - just as the default TRS Class 37's alias to the Alco. That has been an ongoing gripe of mine with Trainz since its inception - if Chris Sawyer can get different sound effects between the Class 20 and Class 37 in a strategy game (Locomotion) then Auran with all their resources have little excuse for not having upgraded the basic sound package. There are some excellent 3rd party sounds around (Pikkabird's Class 37 for example) and I'm sure something could have been worked out.Reference route building. I don't have a degree in anything and recoiled in horror from pure maths/differentiation (sp?) yet have managed to create over 500 miles worth of route for MSTS and currently have a major 170 mile Swedish project in pre-work (marker and map contour tracing in TS Tools). Surveyor has its good points, but I can assure you as the author of the Glasgow to Falkirk route which ships with TRS2004 it takes a great deal longer than half a day to produce a properly sceniced prototype route of any length. In addition Trainz continues to suffer from the lack of any precision method of importing real world data (other than the somewhat imprecise HOG) or markers.MSTS RE does take a certain amount of savvy to get your head round and some things are downright stupid - like having to input angles for gradients instead of straightforward percentages - but once you know how it's a few seconds work on the Windows calculator to arrive at the correct figure.And the big drawback with Trainz ... no Activity Editor unless you *are* a whizz at scripting. Driver commands are still a poor substitute for a decent straightforward timetable and actions editor.

Chief Track Welder

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To Vern
You are the AUTHOR of a route shipped with TRS 2004 ?
What is it called on the screen ?
I haven't playe daround with those yet, (been too busy making my own and driving the TGV at 220 mph!).

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It's the one from Glasgow to Falkirk, you need to access it through Surveyor and set up a session as there were no scenarios created for it. Only around 20 miles but it took 6 - 8 weeks to create.

Chief Track Welder

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Glasgow to Falkirk.
Got it. Respect.

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>It's the one from Glasgow to Falkirk, you need to access it
>through Surveyor and set up a session as there were no
>scenarios created for it. Only around 20 miles but it took 6
>- 8 weeks to create.
Since it was you, Hawthorn Street passes *below* the railway at
Cowlairs...
James H

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I would be happier with Trainz if I could only get it to work properly. I've got several different releases of Trainz and am currently on TRS2004. It's very frustrating downloading routes and all the extra files required, only to find most of them don't even show when I fire Trainz up!The way routes need to have scores or hundreds of dependant files all downloaded individually is a real chore, as I've never managed to get the download helper to work at all. At least on MSTS routes come as a complete package, rather than hundreds of separate little files.The constantly changing software standards are a real pain, as this causes so much incompatibility with 3rd party content. MSTS may be a bit long in the tooth, but at least I can still run everything that I've ever downloaded for it.The final nail in the coffin for me was that I'd bought TRS2004 specifically to run on my high spec laptop that's only a year old, and all I get is an error screen when I try to install Trainz. For some reason TRS2004 will only install on my 4 year old desktop, despite the fact that both are running Windows XP Pro.I had really hoped for more from Trainz, as the earlier releases seemed to work fine on both my PCs, but with TRS2004 things just seem to have got worse, with routes not being available once installed, and the inability of TRS2004 to install at all on my higher spec machine.Until Trainz decides to slow down its constantly changing software standard, I've just decided to abandon it. At least MSTS is a stable platform, and will happily run all the 3rd party content that I've ever downloaded for it.Alan
www.blackpooltrams.com

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I currently use both and will continue to do so. One thing we have to keep in mind is that MSTS is limited in resources. Too many lights and you have a route with no lights. Load up too many detailed objects, textures, and sound and you wind up with a route with issues. As long as the limitations of MSTS are recognized, MSTS will always be enjoyable. Trainz on the other hand has no resource issues at all, but the SP compatability issues has made things difficult. Don't forget that Auran is working on SP4.
Edward K.

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