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della13 (6 posts)
Jan-19-02, 02:57 PM (EST) "which one" Which one is beter, Trainz or MSTS? Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: which one Hack Jan-19-02 1 RE: which one kirby33 Jan-19-02 2 RE: which one flarrfan Jan-19-02 3 RE: which one dyvach Jan-19-02 4 RE: which one EMDMac70 Jan-19-02 5 RE: which one LawrenceKellie Jan-19-02 6 RE: which one Hack Jan-19-02 7 RE: which one dgauci Jan-22-02 11 RE: which one dgauci Jan-22-02 12 RE: which one Boweavel Jan-22-02 13 RE: which one dyvach Jan-20-02 8 RE: which one Hentis Jan-20-02 9 RE: which one TucsonCoyote Jan-21-02 10 RE: which one dyvach Jan-22-02 14 RE: which one GandyDancer Jan-22-02 15 RE: which one dgauci Jan-22-02 16 RE: which one TucsonCoyote Jan-23-02 17 RE: which one dgauci Jan-24-02 18 RE: which one dyvach Jan-24-02 19 RE: which one dgauci Jan-24-02 20 RE: which one dyvach Jan-24-02 22 RE: which one dgauci Jan-25-02 23 RE: which one dyvach Jan-25-02 24 RE: which one dgauci Jan-25-02 25 RE: which one dyvach Jan-25-02 26 RE: which one dgauci Jan-25-02 28 RE: which one dyvach Jan-25-02 34 RE: which one dgauci Jan-25-02 35 RE: which one Tony_Hilliam Jan-25-02 27 RE: which one Hentis Jan-25-02 29 RE: which one dgauci Jan-25-02 30 RE: which one Hentis Jan-25-02 31 RE: which one dgauci Jan-25-02 32 RE: which one dgauci Jan-25-02 33 RE: which one dansherman Jan-24-02 21 RE: which one georgi55 Jan-30-02 36 RE: which one dgauci Jan-30-02 40 RE: which one dyvach Jan-30-02 41 RE: which one georgi55 Jan-30-02 43 RE: which one dgauci Jan-30-02 44 RE: which one georgi55 Jan-31-02 45 RE: which one traveller Jan-30-02 37 RE: which one Andre Jan-30-02 38 RE: which one dyvach Jan-30-02 39 RE: which one Hentis Jan-30-02 42 RE: which one TucsonCoyote Feb-02-02 46 RE: which one Hentis Feb-02-02 47 RE: which one TucsonCoyote Feb-02-02 48 RE: which one Boweavel Feb-02-02 49 RE: which one Hentis Feb-02-02 50

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Hack (589 posts)
Jan-19-02, 03:21 PM (EST) 1. "RE: which one" Depends on the day of the week. ;o)Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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kirby33 (73 posts)
Jan-19-02, 04:23 PM (EST) 2. "RE: which one" There are things I really like about both, and they are quite different from one another. However, for someone whose interested in a true simulation program MSTS is better one, at least with what's currently available for TRAINZ. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
flarrfan (496 posts)
Jan-19-02, 04:30 PM (EST) 3. "RE: which one" LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-02 AT 04:31 PM (EST)MSTS is much better for prototype simulation. Trainz is a neat toy train simulator ("virtual model rr'ing"), though I understand that the 55 mb SP1 has some enhancements for more prototype realism. Wouldn't know, as I don't plan to download 55 mb for a program I haven't used since the week I got it. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dyvach (49 posts)
Jan-19-02, 07:46 PM (EST) 4. "RE: which one" Hmm. is leaving your computer on for up to few hours (depeding on your 'net connection) really so much effort? Considering it just might turn a product you found unusable into something much better..Just thinking aloud Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
EMDMac70 (44 posts)
Jan-19-02, 08:01 PM (EST) 5. "RE: which one" Looks like more people like Msts better as far as support for user made objects......
What I dont like is that in trainz you keep seeing the same ole thing over and over, wish I had time to make a new layout. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (1211 posts)
Jan-19-02, 08:25 PM (EST) 6. "RE: which one" Well, you do have to remember that MSTS was out for 6-7 months before Trainz.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hack (589 posts)
Jan-19-02, 10:38 PM (EST) 7. "RE: which one" OK, I'll get serious. As far as support for 3rd-party addons, trainz would be a hard act to follow in ease of creation. True, MSTS has more items *now*, but it's been on the market since June, while Trainz is just getting started.The sound in MSTS is not bad, but firing up an F in Trainz will make the back hairs on your neck stand out! I've only been playing it for a short time, but that wonderful feeling never goes away in listening to what's going on around you.Layout creation is a joy, and I hear someone had made a 500-baseboard layout (if strung together, that's roughly 250 miles). Even at this early stage, Trainz is showing it can do musch more than folks give it credit.Company Support - MS has had their hands full with other apps, and probably hasn't yet appreciated the number of train-folk out to get their hands on some good RR software. Auran, on the other hand, had support in mind from the start, and didn't just make a lot of noise to get sales started. They're truley commited to their newest offering, where many of the team contribute - not only online on the help side, but also in creating their own objects for Trainz. I don't mean to knock MS, but their view on train simulations is as a "product" for their "customers", while Auran has demonstrated that customers "are" their product.Give yourself a few days to things over...Drop by the Auran Trainz forum and read through the notes of the users. As wih any product, not everyone's happy with Trainz, but the number f gripes for Auran's product are but a fraction of those for MSTS.I'll continue to create for both, and will continue to run both. They work very well side by side, so you can't go wrong owning both. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com
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dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-22-02, 00:32 AM (EST) 11. "RE: which one" In slight defense of Microsoft, games are not their primary revenue source or product. Operating systems, developer tools and business application suites are their main lines.Besides Trainz, what other products does Auran produce? Of course a smaller company will be percieved as more responsive, they have more to lose. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-22-02, 00:44 AM (EST) 12. "RE: which one" >As wih any product, not
>everyone's happy with Trainz, but
>the number of gripes for
>Auran's product are but a
>fraction of those for MSTS. Also, how many people who gripe about MSTS also unreasonably hate anything Microsoft. How many creative ways do people disparage Microsoft when complaining about MSTS, to the point that if MSTS were produced by Auran and Trainz were produced by Microsoft, the same MSTS bashers would be complaining about Trainz and praising MSTS. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Boweavel (1477 posts)
Jan-22-02, 02:56 AM (EST) 13. "RE: which one" Auran also spat out the 'Dark Reign' Series of games...Thats all i know But the do have 2 'other' games on the site that i think are almost ready...Catchya Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dyvach (49 posts)
Jan-20-02, 07:02 AM (EST) 8. "RE: which one" LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-02 AT 07:03 AM (EST)>Looks like more people like Msts better as far as support for user made objects...... I think it's both what Lawrence said, and the fact up until recently you could only make objects for Trainz if you had access to 3ds Max, which is very expensive. Since the latter is going to change really soon, we may see more and more objects converted to, or created for Trainz... especially considering it seems Trainz locos and wagons are much easier to set up? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hentis (273 posts)
Jan-20-02, 01:11 PM (EST) 9. "RE: which one" I agree with whats been said here. Its swings and roundabouts really.The main gripe for me on MTS is the Bugginess and the Lack of support from Microsoft...... Nothing from them on a patch upgrade since day 1. However the Auran guys have like Flarrfan just mentioned have released a service pack for Trainz.
This basicly includes Direct x support a few cosmetic features and a lot of stuff added that have been asked by the trainz community. Yes its 55 meg but you also have the oppotunity to order it on disk. The only thing it will cost you is postage and Patience. I downloaded it on Friday night on a 56k modem took 3 hours and 47 minutes at a connection speed of 48,000. So It can be done. Yes I was also using a dial up where you had to pay for it but well thats what it is there for aint it. Also another thing to note about Trainz is that it does not support the range Voodoo cards. Although if I am not mistaken some cards do work with it.Hentis
"Trainz lover here goto www.virtualtrainz.com If you like or are intrested in trainz..... if you dont thats your hard luck" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TucsonCoyote (50 posts)
Jan-21-02, 09:41 PM (EST) 10. "RE: which one" Tucson Coyote hereActually It really doesn't depend on whether MS Train Sim is better than Trainz or Vice versa.. Rather it's based on a Number of Factors...some of which favor Trainz others that factor MSTS... let's Break it all down (With this Question In Mind..Is Trains the "Train Sim Killer" for MSTS?)First up easy of Use..Where MS TS Has you go through lengthy setup of routes and you have problems where as Trainz is a Lot of times Drag and Drop..(Which is a Plus AND a Minue.. Plus being the Ability to create Quick Scenery The Minus Being the Ability to set up the Scenery properly..(So that you don't have some situations like Mountains Next to rolling Farmlands..Second Objects Sure MSTS Has the Abilty (Now ) to Use User Created objects thanks to companies like Abacus who created Train Sim Modeler..(A Spinoff of FS Design Studio) but then you compare Trainz Objects that Use 3D Studio Max (But wait What about Gmax (WHich is a "Poor Man's Version of 3DSM?? Couldn't you use that for the creation of 3ds objects? (Okay I may be grasping at straws there..Third REALISM... Okay MSTS Does have the Realism but already Trainz has released a Service Pack (Probably the First of Many) which will increase Realism.. which brings to the final part of this equationSUPPORT.. A Lot of MSTS Stuff (Inclduing Scenery design) has been by third Paries which really stinks because the third Parties usually Charge to get a "Full Version of the Product" which then you have to pay extra for..(Trains Seems to keep Supporting their Products and Listening to what the Customer wants and they try to produce fixes while "Big for it's Britches" Microsoft waits.. and waits and maybe fixes one or Two Small Problems and waits some more..Final Verdict if you boil it all down to one summation Trainz is No Train Simulator and if Train Simulator Took Lessons from Trainz then maybe there would be a Lot of Happy SIMMERS out there creating stuff so fast that trainsim.com would be Innudated.. (Frankly if Trainz figures out some of the SMALL hurdles (Items like REALISM) then they could very likely be the "MS Train Sim Killer" (Now if MS Train Sim would get off their duff and do things Like Trainz..(Research, research research) Then they would be King of the Rails..Nuff Said..Tucson Coyote
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dyvach (49 posts)
Jan-22-02, 05:59 AM (EST) 14. "RE: which one" LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-02 AT 06:05 AM (EST)>(But wait What about Gmax (WHich is a "Poor Man's Version of 3DSM?? Couldn't you use that for the creation of 3ds objects? (Okay I may be grasping at straws there.. Auran has asked people to 'keep things under the rug' for a while, but if you visit their Trainz forum and do a search for 'gmax' threads, you'll find answer to your question there. And i think you'll like it. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
GandyDancer (43 posts)
Jan-22-02, 03:19 PM (EST) 15. "RE: which one" Tranz will support gMax when they release the product in Feburary.Sam Schulenburg Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-22-02, 10:30 PM (EST) 16. "RE: which one" Actually neither has to be THE "Train Sim Killer", they are both so totally different in user experience, scope and design. It would be sorta like saying because of Chevrolet SUV's no one should ever buy a Ford sedan again. Both have their place based on what your looking for and expect. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TucsonCoyote (50 posts)
Jan-23-02, 10:35 PM (EST) 17. "RE: which one" I guess what I have to say about the Trainz Vs. MS Train Sim issue is this... How many Add-ons or service packs has MS Train Sim released (Also Has MS Train Sim Included Individual Playability as well as the Expandability for Multiplayer on Train Simulator? So far MS Train Sim has only done one thing and that was upgrade it's tools (Namely the Makeace features..)Now as for Trainz.. It's Releaased One Service Pack already, and they already are working on a Second one as they speak, and finally they did get the right to do G-max Support (Which will make all the "Poor Men" who can't Affoard 3D Strudio a Lot Happier..Frankly it's Not a Train Sim Killer I am talking about, it's which system will allow the Most Flexibility for the same price..MSTS Is only doing Activities and some weather conditions..(and a bit of time..) Trainz is going to get into nuances Microsoft doesn't even want to try, like Dispatching, Yardmaster work (Where you can create Consists, ) and yes Even Multiplayability on line..(Trainz Looks like they will do that in Steps, (Plus When you think about it, Trainz also will take a Look at the One end Microsoft doesn't even bother with..(Namely If you derail a Train you have to go out rebuild the track clean up the wreck, and pay all the employees..Frankly it's a Fairly open and shut case here, Trainz will do eventually what MS Train Sim can't or won't do, Which is namely show us all the right way to run Railroads, do Swtiching Chores, and well, have the One thing that a Lot of folks had when they were kids, which is namely have fun...!That's the Name of that train Tune..Tucson Coyote
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dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-24-02, 00:54 AM (EST) 18. "RE: which one" LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-02 AT 00:57 AM (EST)>I guess what I have to
>say about the Trainz Vs.
>MS Train Sim issue is
>this... How many Add-ons or
>service packs has MS Train
>Sim releasedReleasing a quick succession of service patches to fix their software which was obviously released un-finished, is not a good virtue.What Add-ons has Trainz released? The only one I currently know of was their engine pack for MSTS, which IMHO wasn't worth anything.I also will have to borrow your crystal ball sometime, your making all kinds of amazing predictions of what MSTS and Trainz will be capable of doing in future unreleased versions. How do you know what the future holds.Like I said, totally different user experiences. One doesn't negate the other, just depends on what your looking for. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dyvach (49 posts)
Jan-24-02, 03:34 AM (EST) 19. "RE: which one" >Releasing a quick succession of service patches to fix their software
>which was obviously released un-finished, is not a good virtue. It's a common business practice nowadays as far as software market goes. Not only most of game companies, but even Microsoft does it, releasing patch after patch for their operating systems and office applications. And it's certainly better approach than releasing unfinished product and /not/ trying to fix it... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-24-02, 09:44 AM (EST) 20. "RE: which one"
>It's a common business practice nowadays
>as far as software market
>goes. Not only most of
>game companies, but even Microsoft
>does it, releasing patch after
>patch for their operating systems
>and office applications.>And it's certainly better approach than releasing unfinished product and /not/ trying to fix it... No, reasonably FINISH the product THEN release it is certainly the better approach.Re-read the post again, it's not a common business practice for the software market to release unfinished software, who in his right mind would buy it. Releasing service patches to correct bugs found post release on COMPLETED software is a common good practice.Releasing a product that is unfinished and not feature complete, then releasing multiple service patches in quick succession to finish the product with features that should have been part of the shipping product, just to make it useable is not a good or common practice. Read the posts in this conference from end users. Just by calling it the "community edition" which translates to unfinished, is not really acceptable. Finish the product, ship the product complete and THEN get kudos for quick fixes for any issues that arise from the FINISHED product. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dyvach (49 posts)
Jan-24-02, 05:53 PM (EST) 22. "RE: which one" LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-02 AT 06:00 PM (EST)>No, reasonably FINISH the product THEN release it is certainly the better approach.That's the best of three possible ways. It doesn't happen often and doesn't make my statement any less valid, though -- late support is still much better than no support whatsoever.>Re-read the post again, it's not a common business practice for the software market to release unfinished software, who in his right mind would buy it. This is a strange statement to make on what's generally a MSTS board. Look around, i'd say it seems plenty of people is willing to buy unfinished games, and then spend months trying to make them work like they're supposed to.>Releasing service patches to correct bugs found post release on COMPLETED software is a common good practice. Yes; your point being?>Releasing a product that is unfinished and not feature complete, then releasing multiple service patches in quick succession to finish the product with features that should have been part of the shipping product, just to make it useable is not a good or common practice.Oh, it is pretty common nowadays. Browse a couple of pages, see how many games get multiple patches after they're already released. It may not be a good practice, but i'll repeat it's still better than releasing unfinished, buggy product and leaving it like that for months without any real attempt to contact your customers. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-25-02, 00:13 AM (EST) 23. "RE: which one" >This is a strange statement to
>make on what's generally a
>MSTS board. Look around, i'd
>say it seems plenty of
>people is willing to buy
>unfinished games, and then spend
>months trying to make them
>work like they're supposed to. Oh really, other than Trainz what software mentioned on this board was released with missing software components. MSTS is fully functional right out of the box, there are some bugs, but it is not missing any of it's software components. Since you seem to be not understanding the distinctions a different analogy. You buy a new car for full price, but are delivered a car from the factory with no tires, half an engine and missing parts of the interior. You consider it great customer service because the seller lets you bring the car back to the factory frequently after purchase to have some more of the missing components installed in your car to make it finally completely functional.This is totally different from buying the car fully manufactured and complete, and then finding after driving it that something is not quite right and needs some tweaking from the dealers garage. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dyvach (49 posts)
Jan-25-02, 04:26 AM (EST) 24. "RE: which one" >>Look around, i'd say it seems plenty of people is willing to buy unfinished games, and then spend months trying to make them work like they're supposed to.
>
>Oh really, other than Trainz what software mentioned on this board was released with missing software components. MSTS is fully functional right out of the box, there are some bugs, but it is not missing any of it's software components.If you honestly have no idea what's unfinished in MSTS,(which i doubt) do a search for posts by JMSteven_W98. Then generally for topics involving terms like 'turntables' 'front coupler' 'various cargo types' '.ref files' 'missing objects' 'Kuju/Microsoft' 'imposed deadlines' 'released prematurely' 'unfinished code'... that should be enough to get you started.Now, if you don't mind, let's turn the tables for a moment -- you claim there's missing 'software components' in current release of Trainz. What are they?>Since you seem to be not understanding the distinctions a different analogy. You buy a new car for full price, but are delivered a car from the factory with no tires, half an engine and missing parts of the interior. Well, now i'm /really/ curious what 'missing software components' you had on mind when you were writing that... i mean, if they're as important as engine and tires...>You consider it great customer service because the seller lets you bring the car back to the factory frequently after purchase to have some more of the missing components installed in your car to make it finally completely functional.
>
>This is totally different from buying the car fully manufactured and complete, and then finding after driving it that something is not quite right and needs some tweaking from the dealers garage. To make your analogy complete, the 'fully manufactured' car is full of dangling wires and holes for equipment which didn't get installed due to lack of time. Both the dealer and the manufacturer refuse to do any of needed tweaking, or even acknowledge the car they sold needs adjustements. And the owner of the car is driving with his eyes shut, so he can say "i really don't see anything wrong about my car."And yes, while the other car isn't in much better shape, compared to _this_, the frequent fixes and /upgrades/ provided for free by the other manufacturer _are_ great service. It's all relative... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-25-02, 12:24 PM (EST) 25. "RE: which one"
>If you honestly have no idea
>what's unfinished in MSTS,(which i
>doubt) do a search for
>posts by JMSteven_W98. Then generally
>for topics involving terms like
>'turntables' 'front coupler' 'various cargo
>types' '.ref files' 'missing objects'
>'Kuju/Microsoft' 'imposed deadlines' 'released prematurely'
>'unfinished code'... What part of MSTS doesn't work right out of the box as designed. There are no working turntables in MSTS, Microsoft never said there was. The front coupler problem is a known bug not a missing feature. Nothing here shows that MSTS is not working or complete. You quote missing objects, which missing objects and are they stopping the application from working as intended? As for Microsofts plans for future releases or features, it's all speculation.>Now, if you don't mind, let's
>turn the tables for a
>moment -- you claim there's
>missing 'software components' in current
>release of Trainz. What are
>they? This I clipped from another post is this same conference."For example SP1 increases Trainz performance by up to 20%,
adds DirectX support,"20% is a significant boost in such a short time, which means the initial code release was not very well optimized or complete when released.Here are some of the components added by SP1, which all were missing in the initial release. They all add to the base product to make it functional, which also implies they should have been included in the FINAL product all along.DirectX support
Engine config files modified to improve physics
Numerous loco and rolling stock model details improved
Mesh-weighted vertices for improved model appearance
Animated scenery object support added
Trackside objects no longer deleted when spline inserted
Added sounds for turntables, junctions, crossings etc
High resolution textures added for all loco's
Improved culling and clipping for better performanceThe final product has not been released yet, which just makes my point anyway so their is no need to continue.I am posting as a reply to statements made in this thread, If you like Trainz, buy it and use it. If you feel a need to bash MSTS in an attempt to make Trainz look better, I don't see any reason to continue.
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dyvach (49 posts)
Jan-25-02, 04:13 PM (EST) 26. "RE: which one" >What part of MSTS doesn't work right out of the box as designed.There's plenty of code in MSTS which is not finished and as such, doesn't work. If there was no intention to have those /designed/ features available in final product, why try to code them at all?>There are no working turntables in MSTS, Microsoft never said there was.
>(..)
>"For example SP1 increases Trainz performance by up to 20%, adds DirectX support,"
>
>20% is a significant boost in such a short time, which means the initial code release was not very well optimized or complete when released.Using your own argument, there's no statement from Auran just how optimized Trainz was supposed to be in the first release. If Microsoft tomorrow released the patch speeding up MSTS by the same amount, (and there's areas where it could really use some optimization) would that make you think the original release of their game was incomplete? After all, it was 'perfectly functional' before the update, wasn't it?>Here are some of the components added by SP1, which all were missing in the initial release. They all add to the base product to make it functional, (..)These were all added because they were requested by users... Which /may/ mean they were planned from the start, but can also mean they were added because it's what people wanted to have, and the company listened to them. Hard to tell...>If you feel a need to bash MSTS in an attempt to make Trainz look better, I don't see any reason to continue. I'm sorry you feel pointing out shortcomings of the software you like equals bashing it... but if you'd rather pretend there's nothing wrong about your game of choice, by all means we can end this. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-25-02, 05:25 PM (EST) 28. "RE: which one" >>What part of MSTS doesn't work right out of the box as designed.
>
>There's plenty of code in MSTS
>which is not finished and
>as such, doesn't work. If
>there was no intention to
>have those /designed/ features available
>in final product, why try
>to code them at all? Okay, since you state you have access to Microsoft/Kuju's program source code name the unfinished code and unrealized planned features they contain. There will most likely be further developments in future releases.>>Here are some of the components added by SP1, which all were missing in the initial release. They all add to the base product to make it functional, (..)>These were all added because they
>were requested by users... Which
>/may/ mean they were planned
>from the start, but can
>also mean they were added
>because it's what people wanted
>to have, and the company
>listened to them. Hard to
>tell... The initial release we are all talking about was just a few weeks ago, they didn't just make all of these SP1 added functions since that release and now, they were obviously intended from the beginning for the retail release, which hasn't actually happened yet. If you actually understood anything about software development you would already know that.>I'm sorry you feel pointing out
>shortcomings of the software you
>like equals bashing it...You haven't yet been able to show or point out any shortcomings in MSTS, you've been trying to sell the idea that Trainz is somehow superior because MSTS is supposedly inferior and your failing in the attempt. Try to sell Trainz by stating why it is good by it's own merits.
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dyvach (49 posts)
Jan-25-02, 10:03 PM (EST) 34. "RE: which one" >Okay, since you state you have access to Microsoft/Kuju's program source codeDid i say that? where?>name the unfinished code and unrealized planned features they contain.I've already gave you the information you need to find posts concerning this very issue. Posts from senior Microsoft programmer who's spent a lot of his free time fixing Kuju's sloppy .ref files, and examining the game. The guy claimed he's found quite a few additional types of cargo in MSTS, which aren't used anywhere because the code responsible for handling them was never finished.There's more stuff like that in the archives, and it makes pretty interesting reading. But perhaps you know better than him, or anyone else for that matter.>There will most likely be further developments in future releases.Maybe, maybe not. I'm discussing situation as it is now, not possible future.>You haven't yet been able to show or point out any shortcomings in MSTS,Oh, i did. It's not my fault you'd rather sit here and repeat, "MSTS is perfect, there's nothing wrong with it" instead of running a simple search, like i asked you to.>you've been trying to sell the idea that Trainz is somehow superior because MSTS is supposedly inferior and your failing in the attempt.Are we reading the same thread?I've been trying to explain why i think Auran's _support_ is better than Microsoft's non-existing one. Nowhere i said i think MSTS is actually _worse game_... did i?>Try to sell Trainz by stating why it is good by it's own merits.See, the thing is i'm not trying to sell anything here. So, you can relax -- i'm not trying to convince you Trainz is a better game. I'm not trying to bash MSTS in some inane hope it'll make Trainz look superior. I said it before in another thread, and i'll say it again: i _like_ MSTS. and i like _Trainz_. You don't have to pit them against each other, after all.I'm just saying i think _company_ that made Trainz provides better support than the _company_ that made MSTS. just this, and nothing but this.Can we all get along now?... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-25-02, 11:06 PM (EST) 35. "RE: which one"
>Can we all get along now?... Rather than respond and renew another round of replies, yes we can all get along.My interest here isn't in criticizing Trainz, believe it or not. I get tired of people making swipes at MSTS to justify the existence of Trainz. And Microsoft does support MSTS, all you have to do is contact their tech support, I have. As for future development and patches, it's still too early to say it isn't going to happen. The first service patches for their Office suites usually show up about a year after a version release.
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Tony_Hilliam (15 posts)
Jan-25-02, 04:31 PM (EST) 27. "RE: which one" It's always very interesting to watch from the sidelines when these "who's better" battles take place, and extremely difficult not to post what I really think . It seems to me that logic often takes a back seat. Using one form of logic, since a software program can always be improved, and features can always be added,it should never be released as it is not complete! Is the glass half full or half empty? Are features missing or can new ones be added?We plan to release dozens more features for Trainz in the coming months - so we trust that people who buy Trainz today will enjoy it now, and continue to enjoy it more as new features are added and performance is improved? Hopefully most people agree with this business strategy, and those that don't agree with it won't get too upset by it.Tony Hilliam
Auran COO Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hentis (273 posts)
Jan-25-02, 05:37 PM (EST) 29. "RE: which one" >It's always very interesting to watch
>from the sidelines when these
>"who's better" battles take place,
>and extremely difficult not to
>post what I really think
>. It seems to me
>that logic often takes a
>back seat.
>
>Using one form of logic, since
>a software program can always
>be improved, and features can
>always be added,it should never
>be released as it is
>not complete! Is the glass
>half full or half empty?
>Are features missing or can
>new ones be added?
>
>We plan to release dozens more
>features for Trainz in the
>coming months - so we
>trust that people who buy
>Trainz today will enjoy it
>now, and continue to enjoy
>it more as new features
>are added and performance is
>improved? Hopefully most people agree
>with this business strategy, and
>those that don't agree with
>it won't get too upset
>by it.
>
>Tony Hilliam
>Auran COO Nicely Put Tony...... I agree.
But there is a pont to this. I think that alot of the Stalwart MTS guys and gals ( if any) are clinging to a hope that Microsoft will indeed release a patch or add on for MTS. Well I dont think so in fact I know they wont. What you will get is another version ( possibly) version 2 next year or late this year. I would love to see a version 2 Improved but whether I buy it or no is a different thing. At the moment Trainz has really given me my enjoyment. I still like MTS but have not used it since I downloaded the Doublestack Intermodals over xmas....and the rather disapointing LTV routes arrived even though I havent used it since there is still (well just) enough room for it on my HD. If there is anything new and in my opinion decent looking stuff I will download it. Like the guy who posted said which one is better.....well neither of them are they are good as each other and different.Hentis"Trainz lover here goto www.virtualtrainz.com If you like or are intrested in trainz..... if you dont thats your hard luck" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-25-02, 05:49 PM (EST) 30. "RE: which one" >Using one form of logic, since
>a software program can always
>be improved, and features can
>always be added,it should never be released as it is
>not complete! Is the glass half full or half empty?
>Are features missing or can new ones be added? As the COO of a software company who better than you would know the logic of the software design cycle. Something you seem to now be playing semantics with.Each project is designed, coded, tested, and released within the time and financial parameters allowed for the project. As soon as a project is tested and released for a specific version, the cycle then begins anew on the next version. Your right no software is ever finished in that there can always be further development for newer versions.And through this whole thread we have been talking about your companies initial retail release version, which hasn't occurred yet and is still apparently in the coding and testing cycle. No one is upset with your business strategy, it's just better to market your product based on it's own positive strengths and merits. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hentis (273 posts)
Jan-25-02, 07:15 PM (EST) 31. "RE: which one" Dgauchi....
this argument will reign on and on. Some love MTS Some Hate Mts some love Trainz some hates trainz a few like both.
what a few people are getting at (which I hope you are aware)is that the support from Microsoft for MTS is non existant Even though it has been shipped with loads of bugs, which 3rd party creators have learned to overcome. But why should us the general public pay $50 / £50 for software that is not technically supported by microsoft and still have to sort out Microsofts Cock ups in the game or sim.... yet Microsoft sit back and count the $$$$ from the so called millions of copies that are sold. Yet support for Trainz by Auran is existant and damn near on par in my opinion, EVEN if some people think its only a beta version that alot of us have bought. I personally dont, infact I will properly end up buying the full piece of software once its released. Auran have told us on this forum and their own forum that they will continue the support and they are in for the long haul..... but can you answer me this one question.... Where is microsofts support for MTS?I like MTS as I have stated before and yes I admit that I have knocked it a damn lot recently.... this is not becasue I think trainz is better, but its the buggieness of the software and Nicrosofts failure to act on it and depending on the 3rd party community to do it for them. This in my view is not on. They cant be arsed to reply to emails about the bugs in the program all you get is a crappy form email saying thanks but we cant be arsed to personally reply to you so this is what your getting message!!!!!! Sorry I dont buy that... And to be honest neither should anyone else. Its high time that microsoft did something about there bugged program.Hentis"Trainz lover here goto www.virtualtrainz.com If you like or are intrested in trainz..... if you dont thats your hard luck" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-25-02, 07:33 PM (EST) 32. "RE: which one" >Dgauchi.... It's Dgauci, no h, a common mistake.>this argument will reign on and
>on. Some love MTS Some Hate Mts some love Trainz some hates trainz a few like both.I like MSTS and I don't hate Trainz, I hate the need for people to constantly promote Trainz by bashing MSTS.Microsoft does support MSTS, have you personally contacted them for support, I have and they helped me. You can like Trainz, but the rest of your message is based on the concept that Trainz is great solely because you have a great dislike for Microsoft. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-25-02, 07:48 PM (EST) 33. "RE: which one" Go back and read post #12 again. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dansherman (34 posts)
Jan-24-02, 10:23 AM (EST) 21. "RE: which one" >Which one is beter, Trainz or
>MSTS?
Yes! I have both, I love both, They both do different things better than the other.
They each do what they were intended to do in a more or less painless fashion. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
georgi55 (546 posts)
Jan-30-02, 01:14 AM (EST) 36. "RE: which one" damn dgauci....will you ever stop arging with people on this board... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-30-02, 09:30 AM (EST) 40. "RE: which one" >damn dgauci....will you ever stop arging with people on this board... I haven't replied in days, then you post something like this, Who's trying to keep it going???????
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dyvach (49 posts)
Jan-30-02, 09:56 AM (EST) 41. "RE: which one" I agree, it was dead for almost a week now.. ^^;; Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
georgi55 (546 posts)
Jan-30-02, 06:42 PM (EST) 43. "RE: which one" >I haven't replied in days, then
>you post something like this,
>Who's trying to keep it
>going??????? I don't know, maybe you???????????
I read this post yesterday for the first time, and wrote what I thought. And now you using BOLD insteady of saying that it was dead.
Seems like you really have problems on this board...lol
Georgi Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dgauci (444 posts)
Jan-30-02, 11:40 PM (EST) 44. "RE: which one" >Seems like you really have problems on this board...lol No, I don't have a problem except why out of the blue would you start flaming me by name in a thread I haven't replied in for 5 days. I accept your apology and consider the matter closed. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
georgi55 (546 posts)
Jan-31-02, 03:00 AM (EST) 45. "RE: which one" >I
>accept your apology and consider
>the matter closed. What apology are you talking about?
The matter is closed, but I have no idea about the apology you are talking about.
Georgi Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
traveller (8 posts)
Jan-30-02, 05:32 AM (EST) 37. "RE: which one" I' m very angry about it. The prices: Trainz, price: $100 in Germany (a joke?)
TrainSim, price: $50 "Trainz Features: * without professional Layouts
* without electrified Tracks
* Track Textures not realistic
* Cabview for one unit only
* Cabview very simply and not realistic
* No Activities
* Mountain- Views very simply and not realisticTrainSim: * absolutely great!!!!!!!!I mean: Lightyears between Trainz and Trainsim!!!!!!John Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Andre (100 posts)
Jan-30-02, 07:49 AM (EST) 38. "RE: which one" >I' m very angry about it.
>The prices:
>
>Trainz, price: $100 in
>Germany (a joke?)
>TrainSim, price: $50
> "
And where do you buy in Germany Trainz for $100. Nowhere!!!You can only buy it on the net and then it's 100 Australian Dollars, not US!!!!!!! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dyvach (49 posts)
Jan-30-02, 08:59 AM (EST) 39. "RE: which one" >I' m very angry about it. Please calm down, this anger seems to cloud your view. >The prices:
>
>Trainz, price: $100 in
>Germany (a joke?) It's Australian Dollars, unless someone is trying to rip you off.>Trainz Features:>* without professional Layouts I think you mean prototypical, in which case you're correct.> * without electrified Tracks Incorrect; there's two different types of catenary in Trainz, and quite a few electric locos.> * Track Textures not realisticWell, they look like tracks on wooden/concrete sleepers to me. The textures seem to be made from pictures of real tracks, so how are they not realistic?...are you sure you mean 'not realistic', as opposed to 'different from the ones in MSTS'? > * Cabview for one unit onlyIncorrect; there's four different cabs. If you mean there's no passenger view.. you're also mistaken -- every wagon can have its own 'passenger' view.> * Cabview very simply and not realisticWell, it's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Personally i'd think a full 3d, animated cab is more real than just 3 bitmaps... but oh well.> * No Activities If you mean pre-scripted activities, you're correct.> * Mountain- Views very simply and not realisticYou're welcome to launch the Surveyor and create ones you'll find complex and realistic enough. Shouldn't take you more than an hour, and it's actually fun. >TrainSim:
> * absolutely great!!!!!!!! Is it, really? this is what i thought before i started to read complaints about quality of included routes and models... on this very forum. Now it seems what MSTS has to offer _out of the box_ is barely more complex or realistic than what you can find in Trainz... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hentis (273 posts)
Jan-30-02, 12:25 PM (EST) 42. "RE: which one" LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-02 AT 12:28 PM (EST)
traveller, You are welcome to your own view. But please try and get at least some of the info correct.The $ price you see for Trainz is australian dollars. Which once converted ( if you are from Germany)The Price in DEM is 124.826 DEM
In Euros 63.8015 EURAs at 17:15 30/01/02Or the equvilant that will be charged to your credit card via the internet. But to be honest if you can wait till Feb 12 thats then thats when you can purchase it over the counter.As to the rest of your lets say "observations"Trainz Features: * without professional LayoutsProfessional Layouts .... well what do you wnat for Professional. You get 3 layouts and yes they are small in my opinion but these are just meant to get you started. To be honest I have spent most of my time with trainz ( since December) In Surveyor... Building the Hentis RR ( working title) Details are as follows for the route <---shameless plug
The route is currently 33 baseboards in size. And 3.79 meg to boot. It currently is 1/3 complete. some signals are in. 3 main yards ( another 2 Planned )1 terminus (2 planned) 1 Mainline station (4 planned) 1 Branch line Station (2 planned) Gradients ( woohoo got them working) and needs loads of scenery added. As well as 1 mine and an Oil terminal. Unfortunately now for the bad news...... I will not be able to release this as planned in mid February.... as there is a lot of work needed to be done. Sorry But hopefully when it does get released updates will be quicker to the route.

* without electrified TracksWrong there is Overhead Cantenery supplied in the Surveyor module as a spline tool. No third rail yet I dont even think thats visible in MTS either.... Although I know you can have it.* Track Textures not realisticTrack Textures are realistic.... also Track sounds are a lot better than MTS as well.* Cabview for one unit onlyWrong there are at least 4 or 5
F7 unit, Intercity 125, the electric Eurpoean locos, Class 37 and 55 Cabs.... need I go on?* Cabview very simply and not realisticAs pointed out by another poster "Free" Full 3d movement with in Cab is better than the 2 views in MTS. Although I like the Ueads out view... but the majority of time its on some of the custom locos or just the steam.* No ActivitiesWell believe it or not thats what that fragile squsihy stuff beneath you hair and the 1 cm pice of bone on your head is for.... Its called Your immagination!!!!!!!! Who needs activities. When you have an open ended structure. * Mountain- Views very simply and not realisticThats you opinion I beg to differ but hey thats my opinion.TrainSim: * absolutely great!!!!!!!!
I mean: Lightyears between Trainz and Trainsim!!!!!!Well again thats you opinion.... Personally I dont think so.
Yes I like MTS I have both on PC and both run fine. Apart from the route editor on MTS.... Have you used it yet...... Just lets say The Surveyor module in Trainz is basicly the Dogs bollocks compared to MTS 's route editor also the routedoes not take up that much room on HD. Like I said my route is 3.79 meg in size 33 baseboards and takes the 125 about 30 mins from A - B back to A again on the route. and its only 1 third complete.But at the ends of the day the decision is upto you what you spend your money on. But please do try and get the facts right first ok.Hentis "Trainz lover here goto www.virtualtrainz.com If you like or are intrested in trainz..... if you dont thats your hard luck" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TucsonCoyote (50 posts)
Feb-02-02, 01:43 AM (EST) 46. "RE: which one" Tucson Coyote hereWell just this last week I got my copy of trainz (And yes I did order it (Through a Store in the US in Tucson AZ and they shipped it all they way out here.. Took all of three weeks..!)
But was it worth the 65 bucks??The answer is an Unresounding yes...I have been experimenting with secnery and this is WAY Easier to create REAL scenery in the Trainz Program than it is in MSTS..(How easy.. Well Let's just say All you need for Trainz is two Programs besides the Surveyor Program..1. a Good Paint Program..
2. Micro DEM..You can Download any DEM from most websites that have DEM and import it into MicroDEM.. Then you convert it to a Grey Scale Image (Bitmap..) then open up the Surveyor and Click on advanced.. you're image if you put it in the correct part of the program (Custom/Displacements) will appear and then you just apply it to the seenery..(That's all you have to do!)now if folks want to think MSTS Has the advantage here.. Nope.. This is what MSTS Folks Will Envy...(And Probably eventually they'll come to the senses of "Well MS TS Scenery is TOO Dang Hard to create..*But it's Easy in Trainz!*Also With now Trainz now going to support Gmax (Yes that's right..) seems that Gmax stuff will slowly start Apppearing..(And that is for anyone who has the program (Courtesy of FS2002..) but Gmax is going to be in the retail release which is going to hit most stores right around the 12 of February..So Frankly is trainz worth every penny..(In My Roommates own Words..."Microsoft probably will have to buy out Trainz..to get the goods..."But that's just one Coyotes Opinion..Tucson Coyote
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Hentis (273 posts)
Feb-02-02, 05:22 AM (EST) 47. "RE: which one"
Coyote, He he Nice review and glad you liked trainz. Have you downloaded the service packs mind... goto the Trainz web site for more info..... See siggy below for URL.Yep although I have the "Community" edition of Trainz and with SP1.1 and Sp1.1.1 its bought trainz up to the Retail edition minus Gmax so wheres the beta version now then..... I will probaly end up purchasing the the Full vbersion seeing as I only have a 56k modem and dont intend to keep downloading large chunks of demos and software..... I have often wondered if Microsoft / Kuju person has odrerd Trainz and if so How would they compare it to MTS. It would be nice to know really. What is MS thoughts on Trainz.Unfortunately seems as though MTS is gong to have to make a depatture from my PC at the mo. I have it on a 4.5 gig partition and its out growing it..... Also I want to put Medal of Honour Allied Assaiult on it. Then MTS will come back on the other 30 - 60 gig drive I purxhase later this year.Hentis
"Trainz lover here goto www.virtualtrainz.com If you like or are intrested in trainz..... if you dont thats your hard luck" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TucsonCoyote (50 posts)
Feb-02-02, 10:24 AM (EST) 48. "RE: which one" Hentis, Tucson Coyote here....Actually I have been doing a Lot of research of Both MS Train Sim and Trainz and what I see is the following pattern (and I see Patterns quite well..With Each Addon Aurun comes out with (Whether it be service packs or whole modules, the one thing is clear.. MS Train Sim will not be able to compete...Already for 2002 the folks at aurun are talking about "Yardmaster" in which you'll be able to create Gravity (Hump) Yards... And in order to do this you can figure what the physics models will have to be in order for them to work...(Yep increased physics...Then later add on packs from Aurun will include things like Dispatching, (Where you can be in a Centralized Traffic Control (CTC) Office scheduling the consists over the route, as well as getting the work crews out onto the line to maintenance the rails...(Yep don't take care of those sticky switches and you'll have an accident! Then of course eventually Aurun will get the Community an Online Connection so that you can get small (or Large) railroad clubs online going..As for Microsoft well I see not a Lot in the future, they plan to do hardly anything..(and it shows on their website as they've only come out with enhanced tools for creating objects a bit better..whereas Aurun has already released 2 add on service packs (which if you are a registered user can download for free..)Think of the decision of this as the old Aseop fable of "The Tortoise and the Hare" Microsoft is the Hare, getting their product out quick and pulling a Lot of people away with their enhance physics and the likc but their weakness is scenery tools..Then ther's Aurun who's the Tortoise who plods along at an even pace, giving folks what they want every so often..(With New Modules and service packs..)The end result? The Tortoise will eventually win the race..leaving the Hare wondering what went wrong...but that's one Coyote's Opinion..I'd Like to hear from others here..tucson Coyote
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Boweavel (1477 posts)
Feb-02-02, 10:48 AM (EST) 49. "RE: which one" Well i aggree pretty much with everything you have written .. But of course thers always a but I see it more as the old fable "the turtle and the fox" where the fox = (Auran, gets idea for train-modelling sim) be-friends the turtle into giving him a ride across the lake.. Where when he finnaly reaches the other side, he kills the turtle anyway.. The turtle of course being MS .
What i mean is Auran have said from the start that there in it for the long run (Long being 10yrs or more !) and from the support allready being lashed out, i imagine that they can be here in another 10 yrs or more.. But for me its simply a question of service.. Not product, Soemthing that lacks in MS - TS department, Ad Kuju's side of the copyright severly ...Catchya' Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hentis (273 posts)
Feb-02-02, 06:52 PM (EST) 50. "RE: which one" Bo, this is what I have been trying to point out ( in some kind of way) to the Die hard MTS peeps out there. I dont Dislike MTS I like it But its the way Microsoft and Kuju have treated the community by saying there it is there might be bugs with it your on your own. Although I have noticed an awful amount of 3rd party help which I appreciate. But this in some way should come from Microsoft and not the 3rd party peeps. Of course you mention that on the boards and you get instantly flamed...... I think alot of the problem here is that the majority of the posters on Nels MTS forums are Train luvers like me but alot of them Love Microsoft to death and an atttack against a MS product is a call to arms on oyu.... if you get what I mean. I have also noticed over the past week they posted a message about the best animated "train" gifs of which I ahem "borrowed" one for my siggy in trainz. I went back Thursday / Friday now some one has started complainging about it. I dunno just recently that place is all wrong.... thus I dont visit it as regularly now.Tuscon Coyote.Again..... What you are saying is correct. I would really like to try and see what sort of add on's MS would do for an add on for MTS. Or possibly what sort of ideas for the new version seeing as Trainz is out + upcoming Yardmaster module online, dispatcher and all that.Now I have also noticed wishlists for MTS 2 that have half the ideas that trainz already has and some upcoming ideas..... We will just have to wait and see what happens.....Watch this space.The futures Bright the Futures Trainz......Hentis"Trainz lover here goto www.virtualtrainz.com If you like or are intrested in trainz..... if you dont thats your hard luck" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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