Photo Skins Pros and Cons

I am asking those who paint and skin what your opinions on Photo Skins is and what direction you want to see it go.
Personaly I think that Photo skins are the way to go. 1 you get a more realistic looking Engine or rollingstock. and two I think that it will be the way to go.
Not that I wish to insult those who paint by hand cause you guys are the True Artists here. But by the looks of a Photo Skined Engine and Train they just look that more real.
When the right photos are used they look along the best, and I am not saying that mine are the best here but based on Other Photo Skins. If one can get photos that are perfect for the skinning of engines and Rollingstock they do turn out just right.
A high Resoulution is needed and with the Newer Digital cameras this is now a possability.I just want to here your opinions on Photo Skinning so please keep it clean and no flameing others for there thoughts. just state your opinions and ideas on the matter. I will not argue with it as all your opinions are Valid.

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RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, Kip, Jan-03-04, 03:23 PM, (1) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, kevarc, Jan-03-04, 05:07 PM, (2) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, Boilerbuster, Jan-03-04, 06:29 PM, (3) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, SCL, Jan-04-04, 05:09 PM, (4) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, stryder47, Jan-04-04, 05:49 PM, (5) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, buzzbenz, Jan-05-04, 03:15 PM, (6) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, Stumbl, Jan-05-04, 05:26 PM, (7) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, GaryH2, Jan-05-04, 08:41 PM, (9) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, wecline, Jan-05-04, 08:18 PM, (8) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, goldenpig, Jan-09-04, 05:49 PM, (20) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, Boilerbuster, Jan-05-04, 10:26 PM, (10) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, SCL, Jan-06-04, 12:58 PM, (11) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, ace6879, Jan-06-04, 05:08 PM, (12) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, stryder47, Jan-06-04, 10:19 PM, (13) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, ace6879, Jan-06-04, 10:41 PM, (14) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, CPR_Malice_96th, Jan-06-04, 11:13 PM, (15) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, ace6879, Jan-06-04, 11:17 PM, (16) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, SCL, Jan-07-04, 02:33 PM, (18) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, stryder47, Jan-08-04, 11:03 PM, (19) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, wdq4587, Jan-07-04, 04:20 AM, (17) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, redwing, Jan-10-04, 12:13 PM, (21) RE: Photo Skins Pros and Cons, wdq4587, Jan-12-04, 09:23 PM, (22)

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I like both, especially those that are not photo-skins but "handmade". That's talent in my book on the skinners part. But...the photo-skins have the "real" look which I like also. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) Kyle's (aka Engineer Kyle) skins are photo-skins and I like their texture patterns of stains, marks, and light & shadow'ed border lines. Gaetan Belenger's Alco's is a good example of photo-skins that, in my opinion, really bring the loco to life visusal-wise. I think that 3DTS also uses photo-skins with their stock. On my models, I go to http://paintshop.railfan.net/ and put the pic into Photoshop and make my template and texturize it piece by piece then apply it while in 3D Canvas. This seems to work OK, but they aren't really photo-skins, but they are accurate for the texture maps...depending on how you make them.
I have seen countless posts here on the "pro's and con's" of photo-skins vs. hand textured skins. In my humble opinion there's room for both and can be equally just as pleasing to one's eye depending your own perception of what you consider "good". Though I can only speak for myself, either way is acceptable. I usally use items for the models themselves and change the skins to my liking myself if I desire. My PRRR and MC stock I have in the download area can atest to that. So...for me, either one will suffice. Good Luck!Kip
The Priest River Railroad "...it's so fictional, it's almost real"
Author of Hoodoo Pass "Cascadia"
Look for Hoodoo Pass 3.0 "Cascadia Expansion" in Spring 2004

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Depends on who is doing it. PEte Abrams yes and a couple of others. The rest a no.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
It's fun being CRAZY!!!!!
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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I would have to agree Pete Abrams work is very good work.
Alot of it has to do with the photos in question as well. Personaly when I do get a Digital Camera I will pay attention to detail.
Moving engines will not work.
And since I live only 50 miles eather way from the BNSF and the UP, the UP mainly since 35 miles to the South there is a Siding that they sit alot and Will give me the time and opertunity to take lots of photos for repaints.
However I am not asking anyone to like them but maby those who do Like the Union Pacific and the BNSF like I do would like to have some more work from those lines.
It will be a few months down the road before I get a Digital camera but when I do, I will be posting alot more work.
and Since its A UP line in wich I see alot of Unpatched SP units on as well I may have something for the SP fans out there as well.

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HiI reckon both styles have pluses and minuses, and as we know it's all down to the skill of the repainter and the quality of the photo that makes all the difference.Photo-realistic locos and rollingstock of course would win hands down - IF the routes were photo-realistic too. Can't see that happening for a looooong time! Cheers
Ken
SCL/CSX A-Line Project

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I guess I will have to agree with Kevin on this one. Depends on who's doing it. But as an artist(or designer) I would have to opt in favor of the ones done without photo skins. There are a lot of excellent artists here and they do fantastic work. I am sure most of them use pictures to go by but a lot can be done with the eye, sometimes more. It's like the difference between a photograph and a painting. If DaVinci had had the use of a camera, would the Mona Lisa be as good as it is? Perhaps, if he was a good photographer. But I like the ability to take liberties in my skins. It makes them kind of personal, if you know what I mean?
Anyway, just an opinion, and I guess that is what you wanted. I will download a unit irregardless of how it was done, if I like the looks of it and if I feel it is worth adding to my stock.Ranger
Western Maryland Railroad
Gone, but not forgotten!

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The "Photo Skinning" vs "Semi-Photo", as i call it, is ENTIRELY a matter of opinion.I can say that i do not prefer the photo skinned models, as i feel they "stick out" too much from the surrounding MSTS "semi-photoreal" scenery, but again, that is nothing more than my opinion and not really worth a hill of beans. All it means is that anything i do will not be photo-skinned, simply because that is what i prefer. Which is what i'd recommend to you - do what YOU prefer! ------ BUZZ

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>I can say that i do not prefer the photo skinned models, as
>i feel they "stick out" too much from the surrounding MSTS
>"semi-photoreal" scenery, that's what I like about 'em .
I WANT the trains to stick out.
On the other hand, when I download something, I don't bother to think about which it is.
If I like the work in the pic, it just doesn't mattah.

"I do what my Rice Krispies tell me to do"

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>I can say that i do not prefer the photo skinned models, as
>i feel they "stick out" too much from the surrounding MSTS
>"semi-photoreal" scenery, but again, that is nothing more
>than my opinion and not really worth a hill of beans. All
>it means is that anything i do will not be photo-skinned,
>simply because that is what i prefer. I agree with Buzz on this one. Some of the new routes in progress may change my opinion however.As a "skinner" (LOL!) part of the challenge comes with attempting to make the project look "real" with layers and such (within the confines of MSTS).Gary

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An excellent topic to discuss.I have done re-paints both ways and even some kinda "in between". Those I call scratch-painted. Case in point is my SCL M5 caboose, scratch built and scratch painted.I have come to prefer photo-realism for just the opposite reason of a few who prefer cars hand painted. The more realistic, the better, in my view. I once had a fellow here, who is famous for some great routes, who told me hand-painted rolling stock seemed just a bit too cartoonish and he was in favor of photo-real for the future.I have both types in my ConBuilder and will keep them all. Locomotives seem to me to come out much better than rolling stock, I think. Especially those done by people such as John Peterson and Ken Wright. The biggest problem with hand-painting is the lack of skill (mine, especially!) in weathering the cars. It is very difficult to do good weathering realistically, even with Photoshop and Paint Shop Pro. The best advice I can think of when it comes to weathering, is "go easy and lightly". Good photos of used rolling stock, however, have mother nature's weathering brush and she rarely does a bad job of it.Bill Cline

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>It is very difficult to do good
>weathering realistically, even with Photoshop and Paint Shop
>Pro. Yes if you are painting with a mouse. I do all of my textures using PS. I much rather prefer to have control over lighting and the elements. I use photos as reference and as textures where painting would be too timely a process to duplicate. >The best advice I can think of when it comes to
>weathering, is "go easy and lightly". Good photos of used
>rolling stock, however, have mother nature's weathering
>brush and she rarely does a bad job of it. I am all about a strong synergy between the two. Often times people do not color correct their photos when using them as textures and they usually are not taken in a nice difused light. So they have harsh shadows or odd angles. I have seen some really nice photo textures but they are usually on freight cars where it is easier to apply them. And then there is the whole issue of being able to only do photo textures of current rolling stock. But what are you going to do if you want a photo reskin of say an SP GP40X or any of the fallen flags' rolling stock. Sure there may still be some freight rolling around but what about locos that have been retired or scrapped? I guess it just depends on the tools you have available. Personally I say paint them, use photos as reference or in moderation on the texture and practice using the different brushes and settings, make your own brushes and duplicate what you see. Use photos as reference not a crutch. And I mean that in the nicest possible way... =|GoldenPig
visit me at www.dannybeck.com
www.mapleleaftracks.com

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You all make good arguements for both sides, but however I am not trying to convience anyone to go with the other side. its just good to know where people stand on such a subject. My persoanal expirance and I have done both Paint and Photo myself now since I have done the new UP units as a photo skin. Of my work in my own opinion the Photo Units look far better then my own paint work. However alot of it has to do with the quality of the photo in hand. I couldnt have reproduced that kind of work by hand no matter how hard i try.
As far as what i perfer it would be photo skin. I think that if it is a Simulation that it needs to look as real as it can. It is the same with Flightsim. but photo Skins in Flightsim are something I havent tryed yet. Besides finding good photos unless I take them myself (and dont have the ability yet) are hard to find.
I do think that a good mix of both are good. I run a lower end Computer and sometimes the photo Skined engines drag my frame rates downm, In alot of my consists the lead engine will be a photo skined engine followed by a lower res painted one. this way I save the frame rates a little.
However I think the future is Photo skins and as Scenery catches up with the Photo Skined engines it does look kindof odd but i can live with it.
I agree that sometimes stuff kinda looks cartoonish but compared to sims of ten years ago we have come along way since then and maby in another ten years we will see in our sims will look as if we are looking out our windows.... I cant wait for that day

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I'm largely with you Boilerbuster on this.Trouble is, just like with repaints, sometimes bad resolution can totally ruin the whole thing, whether it's bad contrast or hazy definition.I guess the loco is usually the focal point on consists, but having said that I also still like to see a good rendition of the cars being pulled - without them the loco's pointless!Talking about the application of weathering, some folk like pristine-looking stock, others (me included) like to see a bit of grime. But here's another point - how many times have you seen something in reality where if you'd repainted it that way nobody would believe it!? Bill makes a great point about Mother Nature's paintbrush, but it takes man (especially if he's got his eye on the clock) to make a total @#*$-up of something!! Cheers
Ken
SCL/CSX A-Line Project
PS - thanks Bill for your kind comments!!

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Well, I have released many many photo-repaints of stuff. I have a ton of digital "skin shots" left to do someday, and more models to shoot.Personally, I am a big autorack/86ft. box/and grain car fan. To me, those look better photo-skinned. The recent wave of photo-real skinned grain hoppers look just like what is out here by me on the CNW and IC. With all of the leasing companies getting the private-road cars, ANY grain train is now a rainbow of colors.Now some of our more skilled members can REALLY paint a loco or car and make it look so damned real it is scary. Scott Miller comes to mind, as do Pete Willard and a few others. (Phil Andre, Ken Wright, Buzz Benz, and many many more...if I left you out, it was by accident, not intentional)While I am trying to learn the ins-and-outs of PSP7, I see it will take years to be good at doing it from scratch. SO my verdict is.....both have a place, and when I download something, I go by what I like real or painted. I am a HO modeler as well. I paint and detail my own stuff. I have won a few contests with my CNW and MILW stuff. BUT>>>>>>>>I do not do major kitbashes....Why??? It scares me to death, and I am affraid it won't be up to my standards...so either I get someone else to do it for me, or I buy it in Brass. But in the world of custom painting and detailing, the same goes true as it is in here. It is all in what you like to do. I know a man who can do a major midwest grain elevator with ALL of the piping, wire supports, tubes, silos, etc. His detail is so exquisite, companies have asked him to do models of their businesses. IMHO he is nuts.....I HATE to build structures and can't understand WHY anyone would like to do it. The flip side is....give me a undec SD40-2, and I will make it contest quality right down to the worn-off paint on teh walkways. Most guys think I am nuts for that.SO the botom line is....there is room here for ALL of us. Kevin is a great activity person. WHile some don't like his "wit," you can't take away the fact he has contributed alot to this community. Some of you make 100% Frickin-A FANTASTIC routes....WHile some people don't like the ones who build them, you can't take away the fact it is a great route, and new and exciting things get added for routes on a almost daily basis. Ken Wright and Phil Andre aren't even on this side of the pond, and BOTH are great repainters. Ken has skinned some CNW stuff for me that is as close to perfect as it can get! Phil has done the same for me. Niether one has EVER visited the real CNW...but with the ref. matl' I sent, they did a FANTASTIC job!Jens-Chris and Tony Barenz have brought us some of the better known 3-d models we STILL see repaints of. More are coming! See where I am going with this? If we didn't have the great people we have here, TS would have died a quick painful death. SO my honest opinion is.....as long as somsone has something to contribute, do so. If you ask for critique, you WILL get it! Good or bad...learn to deal with both. There will be some out there who will do what the rest of us consider "crappy" work. That is a given. BUT....give them credit for trying. (There are those who do stuff just to get a rise out of peeps too, and you know who you are)MSTS wouldn't be what it is now without ALL of us! We ALL have something to contribute.I hope this answers my take on things. Enjoy!PS...I just had to do a re-install due to a PC burp, and I was AMAZED how far we have come. All of it because we all have the same goal...to make MSTS "As real as it gets"

Kelley D. Ellison
OK, CBPRA is gone...are you happy now?
CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-04 AT 10:20 PM (EST)

Well said Kelley. Gee, and I bet I can guess who you were talking about with the route creation statement. But you are correct in one particular thing. Most everyone here has had a hand in making the game what it is today, and we all should be proud of that. And even if your reskin or model or route doesn't meet the standards of some of the best (And believe me there was a day theirs looked like yours)and you get flamed about it, shrug it off and go for it again. You will be amazed at how quick you will learn and one day you will be among the elite here as well. But if not, so what, you gave it your best, that is all that matters. I couldn't do a route (and I really made an effort to do several) if my life depended upon it, but I found my niche was reskinning. Give everything a shot and see what you are good at.
Now Kelley and I have gotten this thread way off subject but hey, we had something to say, so I apologize and I am sure Kelley does too, but what we both said I think is important enough to include here.
And remember everyone is an individual and like different things, so don't be afraid to put something out that one person may not like, because I may like it, or Kelley may like it. And that goes back to the original subject. Who cares if it is photo or non photo? If I like it and it suits my purpose, I am going to use it. There is no pro or con. It is all pro in my opinion!By the way, Kelley is one of the best lighting people here, so we all have our niches.RangerWestern Maryland Railroad
Gone, but not forgotten!

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Ranger, After the beating I took today in another thread, I whole-heartedly THANK YOU!!I needed that!

Kelley D. Ellison
OK, CBPRA is gone...are you happy now?
CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

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>By the way, Kelley is one of the best lighting people here,
>so we all have our niches.
>
>Ranger Yes he is !!After TimLater

Tim Kent

=*=BIA=*=Malice

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LOL Tim, Yuo WERE my teacher in a way.
BTW< when you gonna get Vietcong? I'd love to kill you once...mabye even twice.OK< back to the original topic,,,,,,,,sorry dudes!

Kelley D. Ellison
OK, CBPRA is gone...are you happy now?
CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

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Hey Kelley!! Great to hear from you!! I tried e-mailing several times - then I gave up Thanks for your kind words about my stuff - much appreciated. By coincidence I was doing a search in the library here for something and saw your name on some certain car repaints - which will come in very useful for a little project I'm working on. Great work Kelley - I had no idea that you'd done so much (until recently my head was stuck fair and square in SCL country!! LOL)Still playing Vietcong then? Have you tried CoD yet?Cheers
Ken
SCL/CSX A-Line Project

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Tim, we all know that you are just about the best lighting person here. I remember you teaching me how to straighten out a lighting problem I was having, trying to move lights around to work correctly. So, please don't feel slighted by my statement about Kelley. He and I are very good friends, or were, I hope now that I am back we still will be. I just wanted to boost his morale a little. I think he needed it!
And I believe you and I have had some good conversations and discussions so you know that I think highly of you. I always enjoy your comments and quips here. You and Kevin are my two favorites when it comes to reading the forums, and Jim, of course. Where is that guy? Is he still here? I miss his great humor.
Anyway, didn't mean to slight you any.RangerWestern Maryland Railroad
Gone, but not forgotten!

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I like photo skin and have done one. Since MSTS1 do not support more texture mode like bump texture and something like fake reflection. Photo style texture is the only way to get more realistic.But I think there are may be third way. I think some top artist can use program generate texture, I mean I have seen some tutorial show how to use Photoshop generate wood texture, etc. This way let them works don't depend on high resolution and good weather condition photo to finish their work. That give them high productivity for not always the photo they desired available. That mean they can recreate a scenery even with only some small photo but still can get a good quality near use good real photo to skin. I think only a few game maker who make top level game have such skill, none of us who make MSTS addon have try this way. The top level in MSTS addon texture making until now is still TA, for they can use 3D rendered graphics as texture (look their freeware steam cabview, their use photo as environment not like other 3D cabview maker use simple light).For me now, I still need high resolution and good weather condition photos. Try to improve a texture which original photo resolution is not enough is a long painful experience! I have asked our country people to take photo for MSTS, but it seems they don't have enough interesting to take such photo. May be I can ask other country people.

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-04 AT 12:14 PM (EST)

Not entirely true. Danny Beck does some of the best and most realistic looking textures for the game. He can also do them in a relatively short time (so one can't honestly say hand made textures take longer than photo real textures). There are alos other texturers out there that do one hell of a good job and cause people to say "Is that a photo or painted texture". People are starting to raise the bar with texturing with a game that has a half-assed graphic and out dated engine anyway. Kuju must have used a chain smoking trained monkey when they made the game anway.

SP Redwing
SPAZ
(Southern Pacific Arizona)

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I think we are talking about different things, but use same calling: Photo Skins.I think currently there are 3 kind of skin used in MSTS addon: Simple paint, mean use simple line, simple color or simple texture. Photo style paint mean manually paint to let it look like photo (May be use a photo as reference while paint). Use photo as texture mean direct use real photo and transform it to texture (with some process).I can clearly tell you most MSTS addon paint you think use photo as texture are not (include some so called photorealistic texture). Especially for locomotive paint, only a little direct use photo as texture. Danny Beck's work are not. He's first 4 paint (3 SD45R + 1SD44R) are photo style paint (good paint), and his later paint are all simple paint. PEte Abrams's locomotive part paint are also not (freight wagon paint are using photo), for most part he is manually draw not transform from photo.And for these only a few part direct use photo skin, less than half get best result. Why so many people don't direct use photo as texture.
Simple answer is they can not get enough good photo!1. They can not get enough high resolution picture, and some photo texture skin you will fell blur, that may be bad than a simple paint. Almost all pictures you can see in web do not have enough resolution for transform as texture, because file size are restricted. And if angle is not good, that loss resolution much while transform and need more works to process.2. They can not get enough good picture. A good picture need good weather condition. If you take photo in clear condition, it will look like photo in clear condition while play in MSTS. If not,the loco will look lack reflection, not attractive ... And more: you can think a loco like a box, then we need 5 face pictures for texture (bottom don't need). Most important faces is side, front, end. The problem you can not take these 3 part photo at same time all have good sun illuminate (except loco are run in wye). If photos are taken from different time or even different locos, they color will not match. And that need more skill to handle it.
For best stuff and best work, what I think is:Photo as texture > Generated texture > Photo style paint > Simple paintBut if there are no enough good stuff, Photo as texture can even bad than simple paint.Some example about manually generated texture , look this one:
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID15/2815.html
It's not use photo as texture, it may be use manually generated texture or painter have a high skill on paint.This game S.T.A.L.K.E.R. may be use manually generated texture as train texture:
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID15/2466.html
They looks really like use photo as texture, but compare to real photo, I guess it's not direct transform from photo. At below, Call of Duty's train textures have more difference to real photo than this one.

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