To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !

Hey all,Sorry about the delays on this one. I will have it uploaded this eveining then the rest is up to NelsWhat this pack has .3 - CN SD60F's - 3 powered - 3 AI units
3 - Variations of weathering
Modifcations to the lights
Fixes that allow the recovery of air after putting the train into emergency.Also.....MOST IMPORTANT.I had a CN hogger and fellow Train-Simmer here in Winnipeg run the heck out of these engines and adjust the engine files accordingly to what he said " felt right "This is what he enjoys doing.....physics......he's just not well known enough to have work done here ..... 'till now.Thanks again GordI have run his trains on his PC at his house and he has gone into GREAT amounts of detail in explaining to me what should be happening & not happening to a train in real life when pulling - braking -switching - recovering air etc.For you "Physics Guru's" out there .. the numbers in these units ARE going to look overpowered and out of whack to the standards.HOWEVER !Gord has ensured me 1000 times that they now run prototypical.Also .. States a CN SD50 will outpull a CSX SD50 due to PTC ( Positive Traction Control )Trust me...........don't get Gord going on physics unless you REALLY feel like talking for a good few hours Everything from air recovery to being able to hold an entire train while using just the independant brake while the main res re-charges has been adjusted.You will now require only HALF the motive power to pull most of your freights. It is typical for CN to use 2 units only through the Rocky Mountains.....Try using 2 of anything to pull a 80 car loaded train over Kicking Horse Pass.........Isn't going to happen. Now you can !!Anyways enough chit chat.......off to package up the filesLater 3 quick picsTim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, CRSD40, Sep-28-03, 08:13 PM, (1) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, cn_bayview, Sep-28-03, 08:18 PM, (2) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, DualFlag2, Sep-28-03, 09:07 PM, (3) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, Macster, Sep-28-03, 09:46 PM, (4) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, VR6MAN, Sep-28-03, 09:48 PM, (5) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, andrewpickell, Sep-28-03, 10:30 PM, (8) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, TexasWestern70Mac, Sep-28-03, 09:58 PM, (6) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, CPR_Malice_96th, Sep-28-03, 10:14 PM, (7) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, chosenfrozen44, Sep-29-03, 10:56 AM, (9) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, plainsman, Sep-29-03, 12:45 PM, (10) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, CPR_Malice_96th, Sep-29-03, 02:24 PM, (11) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, plainsman, Sep-29-03, 02:48 PM, (12) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, CPR_Malice_96th, Sep-29-03, 03:00 PM, (13) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, CPR_Malice_96th, Sep-29-03, 03:04 PM, (14) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, TexasWestern70Mac, Sep-29-03, 03:12 PM, (15) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, CPR_Malice_96th, Sep-29-03, 03:15 PM, (16) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, TexasWestern70Mac, Sep-29-03, 03:18 PM, (17) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, plainsman, Sep-29-03, 03:20 PM, (18) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, CPR_Malice_96th, Sep-29-03, 03:30 PM, (19) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, CPR_Malice_96th, Sep-30-03, 09:24 AM, (20) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, GT Dan, Sep-30-03, 10:51 AM, (21) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, CPR_Malice_96th, Sep-30-03, 11:31 AM, (22) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, tchouftchouf, Sep-30-03, 01:02 PM, (23) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, ace6879, Sep-30-03, 04:17 PM, (24) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, cwvs, Sep-30-03, 11:50 PM, (25) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, GT Dan, Oct-01-03, 12:43 PM, (26) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, xlspecial261, Oct-02-03, 09:55 AM, (27) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, akajim, Oct-02-03, 12:59 PM, (28) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, ALIAS, Oct-02-03, 01:36 PM, (29) RE: To be uploaded this evening - CN Fans ONLY !!, xlspecial261, Oct-02-03, 02:11 PM, (30)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

Thank You!!!!

-----------------------------

Kyle Norek, Milepost 76 on the NS Buffalo Line
MSN Messenger: crsd40@hotmail.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

WOOHOO!
Thanks Tim!

Rob
Great North Rails

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Excellent work Tim! ;o)

Ben, Forester tech.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Thanks Tim and Gord! Woo Hoo!Also Tim, very correct on CN/CP running hardly any locomotives. My trip out to the Fraiser River Canyon proved that. Sultrans train, 1 ac44 110 cars long... crusing happily at track speedBrian

Brian E. Bundridge
NALW Quality Control Manager

--Power For You--

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

DROOOOOOOOOOOOOLYYYYYYY

Ride On

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>Thanks Tim and Gord! Woo Hoo!
>
>Also Tim, very correct on CN/CP running hardly any
>locomotives. My trip out to the Fraiser River Canyon proved
>that. Sultrans train, 1 ac44 110 cars long... crusing
>happily at track speed
>
>Brian You got that right Brian. I was railfanning the Laggan Sub (KHP) and saw 1 AC4400 with 122 empty potash cars, and he was moving at a good clip as well.
- Andrew

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

those look great tim! you model those? are there any sd40-2f's or sd60f's in cp colors in the pipe? i never knew you modelled if you did do those.... VERY impressive who ever made/ painted it...Hauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-03 AT 10:15 PM (EDT)

Hey Bill,Models are courtesy of MLTSkins & Lighting by meFor the record......I do model. I'm just not as good as everybody else yet. Tim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Geez, that is very realistic looking.....as usual excellant job!CHUCK

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hi Tim,
I am not trying to argue with your results, I have not even seen them yet. I do however have a little concern that we don't know what areas Gord found unrealistic in existing files, and more importantly, what he did to get them performing as he feels correctly?? What this means, is there is no way to incorporate his ideas into future equipment if his observations are born out by other folks who also operate similiar equipment. It would be very helpful to expore his methodolgy to see where the problems are, and get a community wide understanding of what needs to be done to improve things. As you know, there are many different parameters in the .eng files, and they can interrelate in many different ways to get results. Changing adhesion, weight, power, MTE, CTE, speed of CTE, numwheels, and other parameters, can all have marked affect on the resultant pull. It would be nice to get a consensus as to which things need to be adjusted to get to Gord's desired result, such that the same kind of performance can be achieved in all equipment.
Bob

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Afternoon Bob,What basically Gord has done is stated* What should happen to a train when you do " this "...* What should happen .. when " this " happensthen adjusted the numbers accordingly.* He is by no means knocking others work but was never overly impressed with the performance of stuff out there compared to getting out of a real .... lets say CN SD60He told me right off the hop, that the gurus would have a night mare.As above noted. Find me any CP AC4400 with spec matched physics that can pull 110 car sulpher trainNot going to happen.Blame MSTS not the Physics gurus I say.Instead of looking at realisic values, he has gone for realistic feel based on personal experience.Maybe it is better that you Physics guys DON'T look in the ENG file !!LaterTim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-03 AT 02:57 PM (EDT)

Hi Tim,
I am not debating your results, I only want to understand the process, such that ALL the stuff will run right, not just the SD60M or CP AC4400 (which Todd Jones says matches quite well with the pull and balancing speed with his typical consists, and which he detunes to 4,000 HP to get the power limiting CP uses on his units??). I am not defending or bashing the MSTS physics engine, and of course understand it is far from perfect, but unless we know how something varies from reality and by how much, we can't get it right by making knowledgeable adjustments. I STRONGLY disaggree with your suggestion to not look at the files (I know you were partly jesting), but that is definitely not the way to get a better set of universal file standards. Please rethink your reply such that it has more process related information that will help us all and less acusation. I don't know what .wag files Gord used to get a 110 car train together, and the .wag physics will make a tremendous difference in the pull required to get that train to running properly. I do note that Todd feels the friction line in especially heavy cars may be too much resistance, and I have adjusted the .wag files to at least partially account for his observations.
Just to reiterate, I am not argueing, as I don't even know what he did. I just want to understand it so that it can be reproduced in other stuff if it is appropriate!!
BTW, I do realize there is better performance yet to be achieved in the braking section of the files, but I would like to understand how Gord achieved the results he got and why, constructive feedback in other words so we can get them all working right. Note, the 4.6 .wag files were the result of just such input.
Bob

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hey Bob,Jeezz most I've talked to you in 3 yearsYes in fact I was kidding about " Don't look at the ENG files "I dont want any of you guys to have heart attacks looking at the values.I am not knocking ANY of yours or other physics guys work either. I hope you understand that.Maybe I should have just let the comment on the physics be, although this is a big " selling " feature for me. I can run L O N G trains that dont require an unrealistic number of road units to pull.I just know I dont like needing 8-10 default engines to pull a 110 car loaded sulpher train up Kicking Horse PassTo be honestr, unless I had Gord explaining the "what should be happenings" to me I probably would never have known that there was a differenceOther than the 7 SD60's I would have lashed up would get excessive track speed VERY quickly.You and Gord should get in touch. I am sure you 2 could talk ( type ) each others ear off all night. I think the minimum amount of time I have spent on the phone with him is 2.5 hours.ALL TRAIN TALK ..... NOTHIN ELSE !!LaterTim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Sorry,Yes he has his entire rolling stock adjusted as wellTHAT I dont have!LaterTim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

hey tim, since the models are from mlt, presumably these will be skins, sd, and eng files only? or did they make the model custom for you and it is free? just curious as to what will be available since mlt made the model...
Hauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>hey tim, since the models are from mlt, presumably these
>will be skins, sd, and eng files only? That is correct BillSounds - Cab - .S file from Kicking Horse Pass 2 are all requiredThe way I see it. If you like this unit .. chances are you already own that Route anywaysTim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-03 AT 03:19 PM (EDT)

that's true .... well it's still a very good repaint regaurdless .... that's from khp 2? i didn't think mlt did any cn equipment/lines... yetHauling America one pixel at a time
Bill Hemb; train sim repainter http://www.cascadenscale.org/Evergreen/tsdm.htm

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-03 AT 03:29 PM (EDT)

"I just know I dont like needing 8-10 default engines to pull a 110 car loaded sulpher train up Kicking Horse Pass"
Default??? Whose default? MSTS, MLT, Wurger, V4.5? Makes a BIG difference which is being compared to?
You note the .wags were adjusted, but how??
I would love to talk to him or type either (probably learn more if I talk as otherwise feedback may be less detailed?). Would you mind introducing me in such a way that he does not just hang up after a few expletives on disturbing him??
BTW, I thought my emails to NALW crew went your way as well. I certainly was not trying to avoid contact!
BTW2, I can get realistic trains across routes that have realistic grades with V4.5 physics. In particular, Crawford Hill has very realistic grades, and I can get a 105 car coal train up it with two AC4400s and appropriate pushers, just like KCS trains that use it.
Bob

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>"I just know I dont like needing 8-10 default engines to
>pull a 110 car loaded sulpher train up Kicking Horse Pass"
>Default??? Whose default? MSTS, MLT, Wurger, V4.5? MSTS Default . Although it was MLT's that was replaced>Makes a BIG difference which is being compared to? Roder That !!>You note the .wags were adjusted, but how?? I wish I could tell you. They're all on Gords PC>I would love to talk to him or type either (probably learn
>more if I talk as otherwise feedback may be less detailed?).I'll fire him off an e-mail.>Would you mind introducing me in such a way that he does not
>just hang up after a few expletives on disturbing him?? I'm sure he'd enjoy talking to you. What hes talking about may even make more sence to you than me.>BTW, I thought my emails to NALW crew went your way as well.
>I certainly was not trying to avoid contact! They sure do although my shaw e-mail crashed on me Friday so if you sent somthing recently I have not read it yet..sorry>Bob TimTim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Sorry,My @home service has been really bad the last couple days( turning itself on & off )I couldn't upload. Shaw cable says they were doing maintenance in my area.Anyways, I'll get them posted when I get home today.I am in a debate with myself as I have stepped on a coulple peoples " business " here. I may revert to the default SD40-2F Engine file.Guess it depends what kind of mood I am in when I get home
Tim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I'm extremely interested in these physics you're talking about - I too am tired of having to add more locos to a long train. Unfortunately, I don't understand the details of the MSTS physics engine and the calculations to develop a more prototypical .eng file. I have been using the v4.5 physics files for the locos I've been making, but would love to get to a more "accurate" .eng file in terms of game performance. Any suggestions from the physics gurus?

Daniel Ward
The Good Track Railroad is coming!

http://gtw.railfan.net/index.html

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>I have been using the v4.5 physics
>files for the locos I've been making, but would love to get
>to a more "accurate" .eng file in terms of game performance. K this is where I seemed to have dug a hole for myself. There is nothing wrong numerically with the 4.5 physics. Numerically they are 99.9% correct.Feel of train handleing is whats wrong apparently.I would have NEVER known if I wasnt sitting at the PC with a CN engineer beside me.>Any suggestions from the physics gurus? I am not a physics guy, and will never be as there is WAY to much math involved there for my liking. I would like Gord and Bob to get together and chat however. I'm sure they'd get the best of both worlds combined into Ver 5.9 or whatever he's be up to by thenLaterTim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hello Tim,
As an engeneer myself, I'm very interested by this discussion.
Since MSTS is installed on my drive, I'm trying to make it the much realistic than possible.
I would be pleased to share our experience with your friend.
Bye.
JLC

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hey Tim, I don't care what's under the hood....I NEED these!! LOL There has been a rash of these locos here on MY IC in real life!!! They look great!!! But they need to get uploaded....M337-30 is sitting here with only one ICON unit....I NEED power for ME!!! Great work!!Later!

Kelley D. Ellison
OK, CBPRA is gone...are you happy now?
CSX A-Line Chief lighting engineer
NALW Lighting engineer
Dekosoft Lighting engineer

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Gentlemen:I have been following the physics issue with interest. Last night I tried to take 20 coal loads and 30 empty hoppers out of Elkhorn City, KY on the Kingsport route with 3 SD45's, the locomotives and empties using ver. 4.5 physics, and the loads using ver. 4.6 physics. I stalled before I could get out of the yard. The Clinchfield would drag 113 empties with three SD's with no problem. While I like the physics you created Bob, and appreciate the huge amount of work you have put into them, the locomotives do tend to be underpowered. I tend to believe that there is fault with the sim, as I believe it when you say they are "numerically correct." I will be watching with great interest further developments. THANK YOU ALL for your wonderful efforts to bring the best train-sim experience to us all!Bob

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Well, I don't believe you've dug a hole for yourself - I think you have raised an issue that we should work on!I have used the v4.5 physics because they are "Numerically correct".What I want is for the game to be more correct feeling wise - i.e. I want to pull a 80 car empty train at speed with the correct amount of power. On the GT, this usually equals 2 GP38's, not the four or five I have to put on.If someone is willing to help with this physics subject, give me a hollar!

Daniel Ward
The Good Track Railroad is coming!

http://gtw.railfan.net/index.html

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I'll have to download them and give them a try.btw-You are never going to pull a loaded 110 car sulfur train up Kicking Horse with two SD60's in reality.I don't have the specific numbers in front of me, but as a comparison CP used to run two sets of helpers on export grain trains over Rogers Pass. 15 total SD40-2's. Since Bob brought it up, I should mention that in the fiddling I have done on my stuff, with Bob's help, the files are tested on a route built from prototype track profiles. The grades are correct and the consists are correct.And, I run the real thing over this route about every day. Got a pretty good feel for it. Todd

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

In response to post #16 on this thread. Are the shape files from KHP1 acceptable for this reskin, or are the ones from KHP2 different? Ron K of Rockford

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>I'll have to download them and give them a try.
>
>btw-You are never going to pull a loaded 110 car sulfur
>train up Kicking Horse with two SD60's in reality. Thats probably why he's got 3 in the pics above!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>>I'll have to download them and give them a try.
>>
>>btw-You are never going to pull a loaded 110 car sulfur
>>train up Kicking Horse with two SD60's in reality.
>
>Thats probably why he's got 3 in the pics above! My bad. At that though, depends which way you're going. Eastbound, the direction I was assuming, they (three 60's)wouldn't do it. They may westbound. I'm not familiar enough with the grade on the western approach to say one way or the other.Todd

Alert | IP

[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | File Library ] Copyright © 2002 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.