Army Equipment

Thought I could post these now....Anyone ever think of making some Military Equipment on flat cars? Here are some of my pictures.... I would, but modelling is not my thing. Here is alos a link to some more pics... Lots of W9's in the conist list. http://stewart.railfan.net/rail/military.htmAll my shots takin in Marathon, Ont. QARM-21, QARM-22- Both trains had SD40-2's for power.
Chris Wilson
MP 63 CP's Heron Bay Sub
Marathon, Ontario

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RE: Army Equipment, VR6MAN, Aug-30-03, 10:11 PM, (1) RE: Army Equipment, andrewpickell, Aug-30-03, 11:49 PM, (2) RE: Army Equipment, BNSF4723, Aug-30-03, 11:53 PM, (3) RE: Army Equipment, sniper297, Aug-31-03, 00:25 AM, (4) RE: Army Equipment, CPR_Malice_96th, Aug-31-03, 00:29 AM, (6) RE: Army Equipment, VR6MAN, Aug-31-03, 00:26 AM, (5) RE: Army Equipment, CPR_9102, Aug-31-03, 00:32 AM, (7) RE: Army Equipment, sniper297, Aug-31-03, 00:54 AM, (8) RE: Army Equipment, VR6MAN, Aug-31-03, 08:40 PM, (9) RE: Army Equipment, andrewpickell, Aug-31-03, 10:34 PM, (10) RE: Army Equipment, tonka, Sep-01-03, 08:45 PM, (13) RE: Army Equipment, heffed, Aug-31-03, 11:54 PM, (11) RE: Army Equipment, VR6MAN, Sep-01-03, 07:28 PM, (12) RE: Army Equipment, Magick_maker, Sep-01-03, 09:09 PM, (14) RE: Army Equipment, RSD 12, Sep-01-03, 09:39 PM, (15) RE: Army Equipment, TVRRMAN, Sep-07-03, 08:21 PM, (24) RE: Army Equipment, andrewpickell, Sep-02-03, 00:17 AM, (16) RE: Army Equipment, davereage, Sep-15-03, 03:11 PM, (50) RE: Army Equipment, Cell0518, Sep-02-03, 11:39 PM, (17) RE: Army Equipment, Gixxer86g, Sep-03-03, 07:24 PM, (18) RE: Army Equipment, Gixxer86g, Sep-03-03, 07:34 PM, (19) RE: Army Equipment, CGW409, Sep-03-03, 07:56 PM, (20) RE: Army Equipment, imprezzed, Sep-04-03, 03:07 PM, (21) RE: Army Equipment, JonN, Sep-05-03, 02:19 PM, (22) RE: Army Equipment, JonN, Sep-05-03, 04:26 PM, (23) RE: Army Equipment, chucksc, Sep-08-03, 01:48 PM, (25) RE: Army Equipment, imprezzed, Sep-11-03, 02:48 PM, (26) RE: Army Equipment, CPR_9102, Sep-11-03, 04:32 PM, (27) RE: Army Equipment, cn_bayview, Sep-11-03, 07:07 PM, (28) RE: Army Equipment, FireDragonLightning, Sep-11-03, 09:08 PM, (29) RE: Army Equipment, CPR_9102, Sep-12-03, 09:56 AM, (30) RE: Army Equipment, chucksc, Sep-13-03, 00:02 AM, (33) RE: Army Equipment, chucksc, Sep-13-03, 00:22 AM, (35) RE: Army Equipment, JonN, Sep-12-03, 12:08 PM, (31) RE: Army Equipment, imprezzed, Sep-12-03, 10:52 PM, (32) RE: Army Equipment, JonN, Sep-13-03, 11:42 AM, (38) RE: Army Equipment, chucksc, Sep-13-03, 00:11 AM, (34) RE: Army Equipment, imprezzed, Sep-13-03, 05:34 AM, (36) RE: Army Equipment, CPR_9102, Sep-13-03, 09:55 AM, (37) RE: Army Equipment, JonN, Sep-13-03, 11:57 AM, (39) RE: Army Equipment, CGW409, Sep-13-03, 02:32 PM, (41) RE: Army Equipment, chucksc, Sep-13-03, 12:02 PM, (40) RE: Army Equipment, CPR_9102, Sep-13-03, 06:12 PM, (42) RE: Army Equipment, CPR_Malice_96th, Sep-13-03, 07:45 PM, (43) RE: Army Equipment, JonN, Sep-13-03, 09:22 PM, (44) RE: Army Equipment, muskokaandtahoe, Sep-14-03, 00:26 AM, (45) RE: Army Equipment, imprezzed, Sep-14-03, 08:08 AM, (46) RE: Army Equipment, chucksc, Sep-14-03, 10:05 AM, (47) RE: Army Equipment, imprezzed, Sep-14-03, 07:52 PM, (48) RE: Army Equipment, chucksc, Sep-14-03, 11:51 PM, (49) RE: Army Equipment, davereage, Sep-15-03, 03:20 PM, (53) RE: Army Equipment, davereage, Sep-15-03, 03:17 PM, (52) RE: Army Equipment, imprezzed, Sep-16-03, 02:33 PM, (54) RE: Army Equipment, chucksc, Sep-16-03, 04:40 PM, (55) RE: Army Equipment, imprezzed, Sep-16-03, 06:06 PM, (56) RE: Army Equipment, davereage, Sep-15-03, 03:13 PM, (51)

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This couldn't possibly be Canadian Army equipment!, simply too hightech .

Ride On

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It isn't Canadian equipment, but we have some of the best stuff out there in some areas.I think the LAVIII's track record speaks for itself.- Andrew

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We actually have army equipment? Wow :p

Looks Like a Pony RUNS LIKE A STALLION

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Canada don't need high tech equipment, they have Tim "CPR_Malice_96th" Kent.

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>Canada don't need high tech equipment, they have Tim
>"CPR_Malice_96th" Kent. LMAO !!Sniper ........... One day you'll get tired of this right !!!LaterTim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

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LAST EDITED ON Aug-31-03 AT 00:29 AM (EDT)

LOL, like Andrew said, thats not ours. BNSF4723 This is our style!

Ride On

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That is British Stuff for Wargames in Alberta, CP held 5 westerbounds with em, 1 train a day but i only got 2 see 2 due to timing. The first went over CN as of the MP88 106 wreck.Andyone goign to do any of these? Just askingChris Wilson
MP 63 CP's Heron Bay Sub
Marathon, Ontario

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digitallaughter.com, gotta bookmark that. Great pic. Here's a new US Army recruit:

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Haha Sniper, looks better trained then our guys!

Ride On

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Hey...easy off the Canadian Forces bashing. I think it has gone far enough now.- Andrew

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I agree it's British equipment. On the the 3rd pic, the army trucks are Bedford MTs. A discontinued English truck (and manufacturer).Tonka.

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Hehe... Great pic! I think firing the gun will make the boat go faster than that motor will. -Jeff

Union Pacific is my drug.

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I'm surprised that boat can hold the gun lol!

Ride On

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not bashing canada, but isn't the largest ship in the canadian navy a destroyer or cruiser? Ok, joking aside, I once heard that Canada doesn't own its military hardware (tanks and such), but leases or rents them from Britian. Is there any truth to this?

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There is some Army equipment around, but we could always use more. UKTrainSim.com has some WWII equipment, a VickersMk6 tank (on a flatcar, and separate as a ground level vehicle); file KFA_warflat has two flatcars, one with 1 Scimitar light tank and one with 2 Spartan APCs; file BR_Loriot has two flatcars, one with 1 WWII M3 halftrack in US markings and one with a lightweight LandRover (I think the LandRover also comes in another file as a ground level vehicle. The Scimitar and the Spartan are built as part of the flatcar, so they can't be altered to ride on another flatcar or as a ground level vehicle, from what I can tell. I took the M3 halftrack, turned it 180 degrees to face foward, and placed it on a 40' and a 50' American flatcar, altering the height with Shape File Manager. There is a French tank flatcar available at some French train sim site, file SNCF_R66. There are two flatcars; the LeClerc tank faces forward on one and backwards on the other. The tanks are pretty massive; apparently a main battle tank? Again, the tank is a part of the flatcar model and not a separate shape file. At Train-Sim.com the only file I could find was a flatcar with an American M-47 tank. I think this would be from late WWII or Korean War era. The readme file states that the TSM shape file for the tank is included in the file.
It would be nice to see some DODX or TTX flats with M-1 Abrams tanks, M-3 Bradly IFVs, hummers and the like. Preferably with the vehicles as separate shape files.
Well, I'm sorry to interrupt the Canadian bashing with some actual info. If anyone runs across more military equipment or will construct some, please keep us informed? }>
Mark

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Are those cars up for grabs..? Just wondering. I was trying a while back to find some WWII Equipment to ship overseas during the WWII Movements in my MSTS, but dropped the idea due to the unavailablility of the stuff...

Thomas Pearce,

Freight Car Builder, Broadway Limited Locomotive Works

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not bashing canada, but isn't the largest ship in the
canadian navy a destroyer or cruiser?The two largest combat vessels in the Canadian Navy are the Iroquois Class Destroyer, and the Halifax Class Patrol Frigate. Not being a Navy expert, someone will have to tell you which is the largest.Here is a comparison to other vessels:

Ok, joking aside, I once heard that Canada doesn't own its
military hardware (tanks and such), but leases or rents them
from Britian. Is there any truth to this? That is absolutely false. Currently Canada owns 114 German designed Leopard C2's. The have undergone several mechanical and weapon system upgrades to meet Canadian specific reqiurements, and update them for use on today's battlefield.One of the most advanced vehicles that the Canadian Frorces owns is the Coyote Reconnaissance Vehicle. Incorporating both radar and a variety of electro-optic sensors, the Coyote surveillance system provides an all-weather, day and night observation capability.The Tactical Command and Control Communications System Project (TCCCS) replaced old radio equipment with the state-of-the-art Iris communications system. As a result, the Canadian Army has the most integrated digitized command and control system in the world.Feel free to search for more information on the Canadian Forces at http://www.forces.gc.ca/
- Andrew

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Actually it is the Protecteur Class Supply Ship:http://www.navy.gc.ca/mspa_fleet/aor_overview_e.aspWe don't need anything bigger than what we have because our Navy's chief role is supporting peacekeeping efforts by enforcing embargos, intercepting ships etc along with domestic duties such as Search and Rescue, Coastal Patrols, Drug Enforcement and a host of other things.Don't need any battleships or Aircraft carriers to do that.

Dave Reage
www.geocities.com/d_reage

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-02-03 AT 11:40 PM (EDT)

LMAO Yea, the "Shallow Water Navy"

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Canadian troops served with distinction in Afganistan.It was a Canadian sniper that broke Carlos Hathcock's distance record from Vietnam with a Taliban kill at 2430 meters.

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-03-03 AT 07:36 PM (EDT)

More on the Canadian snipers:http://www.snipersparadise.com/articles/2430kill.htm
And since we were discussing destroyers:http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=HTSURF.HTM

"Hold tight,feel the drivers bite,hear the whistle moan.Engine rockin' to the left and right,vibratin' in my bones.Once the locomotive steals your soul,you got a Casey Jones!"---Ian"Lemmy"Kilmister

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But if he was really trying to show us up,he'd have waited till one Talibaner walked in front of another and went for the twofer
But on a serious note,Canadians have fought with honor and distinction along side the US in a great many conflicts(IIRC during WWII a good many of us Yanks didn't wait til 12/7/41 to get involved and headed north to sign on with Canadian Air Corps)Gary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-03 AT 03:08 PM (EDT)

The Canadian Patrol Frigate (Halifax Class) is longer than the Iroquois Class Destroyer, it is also heavier and (some would disagree) better armed. Having sailed on both class of these ships, I prefer the IRO class because it rides better. Primary armrament on an IRO class:
29 SM-2 Standard missiles (Same missile as a Ticonderoga)
1 OTO Melara 76mm Super Rapid (Same as an OHP class, but fires quicker)
1 20mm Vulcan Phalanx (CIWS)
6 (3 port, 3 stbd) Torpedo Tubes
2 (Normally one...we need space for our gym!) CH-124A/B Sea Kings
6 .50 Cal Mountings
Primary Armrament on an HFX Class
8 BGM-84 Harpoon Missiles
16 RIM-7E Sea Sparrow (32 Can be carried)
1 20mm Vulcan Phalanx (CIWS)
1 57mm Bofors Cannon (WITH A HIGH FREAKIN' RATE OF FIRE)
4 Torpedo Tubes (2 Port, 2 STBD)
1 CH-124 Sea King
8 .50 Cal Mountings
Iroquois Class (in front) and 2 Halifax Class (Shown with HMCS Preserver, our AOR)

I wanna highball it through Woodstock, Ont. on none other than...THE TURBOTRAIN!!!

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-03 AT 02:28 PM (EDT)

Our submarines are the only thing in our navy more embassasing than the Sea King choppers. Read here:
http://www.naval.ca/article/haydon/Victoria_Class_Submarines.html If the Canadian Forces had proper funding, we would be building our own subs like the Aussies, or at least buying new ones instead of used junkers.Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-03 AT 04:29 PM (EDT)

ADDENDEM. I should mention that the article quoted on that page is the point of me posting the link. The person who paraphrased it is obviously a puppet of the Liberal government and is trying to refute the article with obvious BS. I found that particular article (unparaphrased) on another site a while back, and I only found it again using a google search.
BTW, Now I hear the Liberal government is planning another $200 million budget cutbact to the armed forces. Are the Liberals retarded or just plain stupid? Why don't the Liberals just go the whole nine yards and scrap the Armed Forces altogether, because that seems to be what they want.Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-08-03 AT 01:49 PM (EDT)

Nice "Target" Picture....
Chuck Schneider
(Retired Submariner - USN)
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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I was at a range at a time and place on a frigate which will remain nameless Chuck, and I recall handing a couple of SSN's their arses. Your Prospective Commanding Officers (soon to be attack boat captains) need some work Chuck!

I wanna highball it through Woodstock, Ont. on none other than...THE TURBOTRAIN!!!

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Yes, Chuck...I know you and me are not the best of buds... But please dont say things like that.... I know, and I am not sure... But it may be a joke. but things like thta are not funny. It is Sept.11, and I would never say NOTHING about that... So please, lets just not say stuff like that okay chuck.I know I was a jerk there, and I should have said that... But it is from the past, so who cares.Anywase, I just got back from wisdom teeth getting pulled in Thunder Bay and I saw the remote control GP9u there. with another one pulling like 10 lumber loads and a 150 "Canada Style" ALPX, CPWX canada / government canada hoppers. So no waste moving ex Current River to Westfort. I was preety urt there, crying as it was pain etc as I got out of the place just prior to that. But I managed to videotape it with sucess. Also, I saw 2 CNRZ trailers on the way up, a CLARKE transport at CP Schrieber....:-P and a CN grey container at the Husky in Nipigon.Now what really sucks... I can't go outside or anything incase i mess up my stitchesJust a couple of trains
112-09 -- ETA 1530 Fri -- CP 9607 + 9547 **Another newly symboled/scheduled train!!
102-10 -- ETA 1545 Fri -- CP 9136 + 9009
106-10 -- ETA 1810 Fri -- CP 9766 solo **Here we go, new power!
2-106-09--ETA 0500 Sat -- CP 8617 + UP 8073 **The big yellow monster coming back!! Will keep posted on his progress!New 9766, going east from ex Vancouver, and a UP SD90MAC.... :-ZOh well,LIFE Chris Wilson
MP 63 CP's Heron Bay Sub
Marathon, Ontario

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hmmm maybe a trip to south parry is in order!
Get a UP and a new AC!!

Rob
Great North Rails

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How far is the UP headed down? To Woodstock perchance ?

Jay
http://www.freewebs.com/peterbiltsrule

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Jay,Now, hopefully it stays on 2106 and dosent leave CP at Winnipeg and go south.If it makes it to Toronto yard, has set offs at Agincourt and Vaughan. She will either go on a westbound to Calgary or head to Chicago.I'll keep you guys and gals posted on this.Chris Wilson
MP 63 CP's Heron Bay Sub
Marathon, Ontario

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-03 AT 00:03 AM (EDT)

Chris,It IS a joke! It is a pretty standard running joke in almost all the world's navies going back to the German Navy in WW1 IIRC!
We submariners routinely refer to all surface craft as targets! Especially when we are talking to the crew of them....
It's all part of the Psych warfare drill.....
We are taught from the beginning of our training that there are only 2 classes of ships, Submarines and Targets....
Heck during the cold war my generation routinely referred to the Red Banner Northern Fleet as a target rich environment! And that was everyone from the admiral on down..... Kinda like the Marines in Korea at the Chosen Reservoir when surrounded their General, Chesty Puller, was quoted as saying "Chinese to the right, Chinese to the Left, Chinese to the Front and Chinese to the rear..... Bahstads won't get away now!"If you've never been in the service you can't understand the mindset... But once you have been you will..... And probably participate too!

Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-03 AT 00:26 AM (EDT)

>I was at a range at a time and place on a frigate which will
>remain nameless Chuck, and I recall handing a couple of
>SSN's their arses. Your Prospective Commanding Officers
>(soon to be attack boat captains) need some work Chuck! Now having been on the other end of a few of those exercises let me tell you what really happens....In order not to shred, spindle, humiliate and otherwise thoroughly destroy the morale of what ever surface skimmers we were playing with we were usually (pick 1 or some times all) restricted in speed, depth, course deviation, position (plus or minus so many miles from a fixed point) or had to have an "augmenter" (read noise maker) turned on so they could find us... Usually when given freedom of action we had the engagement over so fast it was boring... We were faster, our weapons could shoot further, we could detect at a longer range and in most cases dive below the effective depth of most asw torpedoes..... the only time it got interesting is when aircraft were involved and unless they were NATO ASW aircraft their sensors were usually so poor that it was not very hard to evade.....If you were playing against the PCOs (Prospective Commanding Officers) then they were still in school to learn how to be COs and effectively use their weapons.... That wasn't the A team or the B team or even the C team... In fact I'm not sure they would qualify above a class D minor league team at that point in their development! Sorry, in the real world close only counts in Horse Shoes, Hand-grenades and thermonuclear devices.... Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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I'm afraid I agree with Chuck here, even though I am Canadian. Like some unnamed submariner once said, "There are two types of vessels in the ocean today...submarines and targets"Seriously, though I wonder how well those frigates would fare in real combat aginst a modern SSN like the 688i or the Seawolf (especially the latter), considering that their main ASW asset (the Sea King) is woefully unreliable at best. Well, actually I'm thinking of a more likely adversary, like Akula SSN. This boat may have have inferior sonar than it's American counterparts, but it's armed to the teeth!BTW Chuck, just out of curiosity, on which boat(s) did you serve?Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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The CPF and the 280 Class boats have NO PROBLEM finding and fighting SSN's. The BIG concern is Diesel boats. Those things are VERY VERY good at doing "Black Hole in the Water" impersonations. The geriatric CH-124 Sea King has no problem finding submarines. In fact, the equipment on board for finding them is great. The problem is, the actual airframes themselves are old. Nothing is wrong with the subhunting gear. Canada's biggest torpedo (from surface ships anyway) is the Mk 46. This torp is a GOOD torp, but unfortunately, has a small chance of killing something like an Akula uless you hit it right on the prop. The Akula, I believe has a TITANIUM hull. Titanium is a very, very hard metal to punch through,even with shaped explosives.

I wanna highball it through Woodstock, Ont. on none other than...THE TURBOTRAIN!!!

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Imprezzed, Akulas have steel, not titanium hulls, but they do have double hulls, giving them greater reserve bouyancy and thus torpedo survivability, compered to NATO boats, which have a single hull of high-yield steel. The Russians gave up on titanium hulled subs years ago, because they were just too expensive to build and operate. The Akula was intended to be a less expensive alternative to the Sierra class, which did have a titanium hull. The only other classes of Russian/Soviet subs to have titanium hulls are the Alfa class (7 built) Mike class (1 built)and Papa class (1 built). All these boats, including the Sierra (4 built) are now retired or in reserve (except for the sole Mike class boat, which sank).
BTW, I strongly believe that the Sea Kings would have a very hard time tracking a Seawolf, which is considered the quietest sub ever built. These are believed to be ten times as quiet as the 688i, which itself is about seven times as quiet as the early 688 class boats. This would make the Seawolfs even quieter than the background ocean noise. Weather the new Russian Amur 1650 SSK will wrest the "World's Quietest Sub" title back into the diesel fold is another question, but one that cannot be answered yet, as the first one has not yet been launched. Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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Skipjack, Haddo and Los Angeles.....
A tender or three and a whole krapload of time in assorted command bunkers, Staffs (US and NATO) and Naval Communications Units in Norfolk and Washington DC(Secretary of the NAVY Message Center).....
( I told ya I was a REMF )....
FWIW I finished up on the staff of the Commander Submarine Force US Atlantic Fleet...Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-03 AT 05:36 AM (EDT)

REMF! LMAO!I dunno Chuck...In a fight between a 688i or a CPF fitted with CANTASS with a (i know it sounds bad) Sea King, I'd take the latter. If it goes through and we get the NH-90...well...ever hear of something called CANTASS? I've seen it work. Trust me...it's scary when you think about what you can hear and how far away you can hear it! EDIT: Oh, and by the way, JonN, the reason you have such a low opinon of the Canadian Forces is because you believe everything the media force feeds down your throat. Come to Halifax or Esquimalt, and check out a ship. We may not have the best equipment in the world, but we're damn good with what we have.

I wanna highball it through Woodstock, Ont. on none other than...THE TURBOTRAIN!!!

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Roger Chuck,Also, we do have a crappy military but when you think aboout it...How often has one of our vehicles got shot? The Coyotes, those things are amazing wth the technoligy. We are a country to have a good life, not to have wars.But when I was little, I thought the Salavation Army was a miltitary, and there were tanks... As it was in every town, Salvation Army. LOLBut we are a peace country, so we do not need M5's or anything. Also, the Ottawa War museum gives aq lot of info, and know that we will be getting a new one right downtown near Bayview is coolieoChris Wilson
MP 63 CP's Heron Bay Sub
Marathon, Ontario

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-03 AT 12:04 PM (EDT)

Look, the sole reason we have a crappy military is because of the goddamn Liberals. As long as they run this country, our armed forces will suck. Remember Afghanistan? Our forces could not even provide their own transportation!!! and remember that frigate sen to the Persian Gulf that had to head back to port because it's Sea King crashed on it's deck? Or what about the other Sea King crashes, What about the CF-18's, whose electronics are the same as they were in 1982 when they were built, and thus are obsolete. What about the low marale and even lower paychecks of our personnel? What about the Upholder subs? We should have gotten new boats, not used ones that will take 5-6 years to make seaworthy. What about the disbanding of the Petawawa Airborne Regiment a few years ago? Are you saying the media made all that up? Anyone who denies the serious problems our armed forces have is living in a dreamworld. These problems will never be solved until the Liberals and our moron Prime Minister are out of power.EDIT: About 688i vs. CPF, the US Navy has begun a program called "Sea Serpent", which will basicly be an encapsulated AIM-9X Sidewinder designed to be fired from existing torpedo tubes on US subs. I don't think I need to explain the purpose of this system. Also, The Akula class, like many Russian boats, already has a mast mounted Strela missile.Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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Jon
Alas that seems to be the attitude of liberals.
The military is icky and nasty and full of less "enlightened" types unless they're being sent out to Outer Slobovastan on a "deliver the pizza" mission that has absolutely nothing to do with national defense.
They'd much rather we all join hands and sing We Are The World,while sending out good vibes to all the world and of course when some scumbuckets from Inner Lowlivia take advantage of that implyed weakness and attack then they wish to hold semminars on Why Do They Hate Us? and What Can We Do To Make Them Like Us.
I hope for our sake the US citzenry sees through the crapola that the Dems have been shoveling and that the voters up your way see the light and give the Libs the heave hoGary S

"Some say this country's just out for a fight. After 9/11 man I'd have to say thats right"
"Have You Forgotten"
Darryl Worley

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Nope Chris I wouldn't call the Can-Forces crappy....
Just too small and way underfunded....
BTW, Canada is not really a peaceful country....
You've participated in every major war in the 19th and 20th centuries except Vietnam... In WW1 and WW2 your navy ( a proper navy not this generic Forces $hit ) even operated heavy units like Battle Cruisers and the like.... IIRC your current fascination with socialism and pacifism seems to stem from when we shipped you many of our draft dodgers and cowards back during the Vietnam War. It appears they've bred like the cockroaches they are and succeeded in infecting your society too!A lot of Canadian Destroyers and Frigates were on Antisubmarine patrol duty in the North Atlantic during both World Wars.... Don't believe all that propaganda the Aviation types and surface types about how easy they can find us and deal with us... Dream on Skimmers! FWIW, CANTASS is a cost reduced version of a US system called SURTASS which has been around in one form or other for over a dozen years... It was originally developed as a "gap filler" in case of holes in the SOSUS line caused by material casualties or enemy action. It was later modified to provide open ocean coverage in areas where there was no SOSUS barrier.....
BTW, we figured out how to deal with it on a tactical level a long time ago....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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No no,I said the candian forces suck for the amount of stuff we have, but when you think... We got a lot of military, well not much, but what we have is advanced... Like we are not like the huge pictures in trains mags of huge military bases with one train of the same tank.But, yes...he are in wars but not that much.. Excluding the WW's as there was been a lot of nations involved.But you can reply back to this please, then wew should stop this thread eh... This was posted for one thing, a QARM train for MSTS.
But every military is great, and another neat thing is about Canada. Wargames, United States, Canadian, and British come here for Practice which is really neat when you think about it.Chris Wilson
MP 63 CP's Heron Bay Sub
Marathon, Ontario

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-03 AT 07:49 PM (EDT)

Bad news for you Canadian Military FansI watched a show on the Discovery Channel I believe it was this afternoon. Anyways " Janes " ( If you don't know who they are .. you should't be in here talking militay )Anyways "Janes" has deemed Canada outdated - and staes from our current level of equipment ( quality & quantity ) We are bordering on a poverty level for Military Hardware.That does not mean the Canadian Forces sucks...........just means they don't have very much to work with.As usual.......nothing but positive notes on the US !!Glad their on our side !!LaterOn another note, a very good part of my family is in the Canadian Military ( except for me ) along with the majority of my friends. And most of them dont have too much positive stuff to say either.Mind you a couple of my P.P.C.L.I. freinds can't say enough about the weapons........Army brainwashing I say !!!Tim Kent
96th_Malice
" Power for You "

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-03 AT 09:56 PM (EDT)

Well, if Jane's said our forces are obsolete, I doubt anyone can hold a credible argument against that, seeing that military personnel around the world regularly use Jane's publications...
At least the Canadian Forces still have some noteworthy accomplishments, like the exploits of the Canadian snipers in Afghanistan, or the Canadian pilot who came in first place in the annual U.S. "Top Gun" meet a few years ago. These accomplishments are few, but they are still something to be proud of.

Anyway Tim, I don't think there is much bias on Jane's part concerning the US military. After all, Jane's is based in Britain.
Also remember that out of the roughly $850 billion spent on defence worldwide, $380 billion is spent by the United States. That kind of spending will show.BTW, what the Liberals have done to Canada's military is exactly what Bill Klinton tried to do to the U.S. Armed Forces. Only difference is, the Republicans in Congress kept Klinton's ambitions at least partially in check. Here in Canada, the Liberals had a massive majority in Parlaiment, reducing it to Jean Chretien's rubber-stamp committee. Thankfully, it's not quite that way anymore.Jonathan Nikiforovs.
Milepost 180, CP Belleville Sub.Repainter for Yonder Locomotive Works.

"A crictic is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased - he hates all creative people equally." - Lazarus Long

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Who knows, maybe I'll get the last word here on the Canadian military:****Thanks Canada for being a good neighbor.****Dave NelsonWP track, Oakland-Altamont Summit: 90% complete;
SP track, West Oakland: 75% complete;
Aug 1950

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Low morale? Bad Pay? Explain to me where that is...I sure as hell don't see it, and I do this stuff every day! BTW Chuck: You were a little off about CANTASS CANTASS — the Canadian Towed Array Sonar System*
As its name suggests, the CANTASS is towed behind the Halifax class frigates — towed far enough behind that the system does not pick up noise from the frigates’ propellers or machinery. The towed array is essentially the US Navy’s AN/SQR-19 TACTAS (Tactical Towed Array Sonar) which consists of a long coaxial cable with hydrophones attached along part of its length (see the diagram below). CANTASS substitutes the Canadian-designed AN/SQS-501 processor to interpret acoustical data from the towed array whose role remains the same — passive detection and tracking of submarines and surface vessels at very long range. Noises detected by the hydrophone array are turned into electrical signals by transducers and relayed back along the coaxial tow cable to be processed by the AN/SQS-501 on board the patrolling frigate.

I wanna highball it through Woodstock, Ont. on none other than...THE TURBOTRAIN!!!

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-14-03 AT 10:07 AM (EDT)

>Low morale? Bad Pay? Explain to me where that is...I sure as
>hell don't see it, and I do this stuff every day!
>
>BTW Chuck: You were a little off about CANTASS
>Actually I wasn't.
Just trying to keep it simple for those among us who don't follow this stuff...
For guys like you and me here is what I know for a fact and have subsequently read;
They are both derived from the Submarine Towed Array systems we use (which was originally invented by a USN Submarine Senior Chief Sonar Petty Officer - STSCS(ss) to be precise -in the early to mid 60s - I know I was on a Thresher/Permit class boat when we had one fitted in 1966) and have had in service some 10 years before the Surface fleet. SURTASS is just for surface surveillance as it is usually placed on an unarmed ship but one with significantly better acoustic processors than warships carry... The value of these systems, both submarine deployed and surface deployed, is as you mentioned because the passive hydrophones are are trailed away from the machinery noise of the host platform. FWIW, they are more efficient on submarines then surface craft since we operate in a quieter environment and with much quieter machinery. Having said all that it should be noted almost all design improvements in towed array systems have been in the acoustic processors that develop and display the raw data stream coming from the hydrophones.... Which leads me to my final point, CANTASS uses a proprietary Canadian developed and built acoustic Processor (read that as a computer for the rest of you) because, IIRC, Canada could not afford the AN/UYK series processors (reported by Jane's as the most powerful in any warships) used by the US version(s)of this system... Once again the politicos have strangled you guys at a subset of what you need....
I believe this same dynamic is what caused you lot to select the less powerful computers and radars from the S3 for your version of the P3, Costs I mean....
FWIW, Submarine towed arrays are still more sensitive by almost an order of magnitude than surface towed arrays according to Jane's defense weekly...They are still pretty looking targets IMHO! Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Freakin' Bubbleheads...gotta be right about everything, don't ya. Yes, the CP-140 Aurora did end up getting the computers and radars from the S-3. However, nowadays, after theier midlife refit, they are infinitely more capable than their older counterparts. (Pretty much the only area which Canada's Aurora is less Capable than a P-3C is the ability to use SSM's). I was chatting to a local TASOP about this stuff and he gave me this. (Personally, NCIOPS don't need to know too much about this stuff.) "You're both right. CANTASS is an offshoot of the SURTASS system, and they use essentially the same components, however, the actual processors themselves developed by Litton Canada and the Navy give CANTASS much more versatility than SURTAS. It's not that we couldn't afford the U.S. designed processors, it's that we didn't want them, because we had a few ideas of our own."There you have it folks. Right from the horses' mouth. You gotta remember Chuck, ASW started in World War One, but we perfected (Again, a relative term) it in World War Two.

I wanna highball it through Woodstock, Ont. on none other than...THE TURBOTRAIN!!!

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The only REAL ASW platform is another Submarine!
BTW, I notice you are comparing CANTASS to the SURTASS ships I on the other hand was comparing it to the towed arrays on the Arleigh Burke Class destroyers....Of course neither is a nat's a$$ on a submarine towed array....As far as ASW in WW1 and WW2 was concerned, I was taught you lot were losing that part of the war until we came in....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-03 AT 03:21 PM (EDT)

>Nope Chris I wouldn't call the Can-Forces crappy....
>Just too small and way underfunded.... This is well said Chuck. The Men and Women of the Canadian Armed Forces do great things with what they have, which unfortunately is not much usually.

Dave Reage
www.geocities.com/d_reage

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>
>EDIT: Oh, and by the way, JonN, the reason you have such a
>low opinon of the Canadian Forces is because you believe
>everything the media force feeds down your throat. Come to
>Halifax or Esquimalt, and check out a ship. We may not have
>the best equipment in the world, but we're damn good with
>what we have. Not to mention that if you have a buddy on board a ship, he can get you and your friends onboard to enjoy a Navy speacialty......$0.90 beers!

Dave Reage
www.geocities.com/d_reage

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>Not to mention that if you have a buddy on board a ship, he
>can get you and your friends onboard to enjoy a Navy
>speacialty......$0.90 beers!
And 25 cent shots when we're alongside...no hard booze at sea.Heh...one other thing we Canucks have over the Yanks...our ships aren't dry!There are the idiots who break the rules, but most enjoy responsibly.However, it's been said that sometimes the odd bottle is "liberated" from the Chiefs and Petty Officers messdecks on US Ships. Chuck...Any truth to that?

I wanna highball it through Woodstock, Ont. on none other than...THE TURBOTRAIN!!!

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-16-03 AT 04:53 PM (EDT)

>
>>Not to mention that if you have a buddy on board a ship, he
>>can get you and your friends onboard to enjoy a Navy
>>speacialty......$0.90 beers!
>
>
>And 25 cent shots when we're alongside...no hard booze at
>sea.
>
>Heh...one other thing we Canucks have over the Yanks...our
>ships aren't dry!
>
>There are the idiots who break the rules, but most enjoy
>responsibly.
>
>However, it's been said that sometimes the odd bottle is
>"liberated" from the Chiefs and Petty Officers messdecks on
>US Ships. Chuck...Any truth to that? Well I grant you that is something you lot and the Brits (and the Aussies and Kiwis too) have on us... I once explained it to a mate in the RN this way.... Didn't ya ever wonder where all the methodists and puritans you ran out of the UK in the 17th century went? Having said that I've been there to "splice the main brace" at mid patrol with a beer or two, once or twice... Not the same as the Rum ration in the RN however... Now when I 1st went into submarines (1964) a few of the Chiefs were still relics from WW2 and Korea with merit badges and stripes to match and they were singularly unimpressed with the "Rickover's finest" officers we were getting... (Great Engineers, lousy leaders)
(For instance the 1st chief I served under as a "striker" was firing deck guns (20mm AAA) from the "Cigarette Deck" of a diesel boat at strafing Zeros on 12/7/1941 when he was 17, He had so many rows of ribbons that his dolphins (Submariner's insignia somewhat equivelent to wings only harder to get IMHO)were practically Shoulder Boards....IIRC The drink of choice for those guys was "Ghillie" (sp)which was canned grapefruit juice cut with "torpedo fuel" (grain alchohol) and served in a large white ceramic Navy issue coffee mug.... IIRC that stuff was explosive....
Being a bit younger I tended to limit my drinking to "Depth Charges" in the Petty Officer's club over lunch (11:30 to 13:00)....
IIRC those were about 50 cents....Chuck Schneider
(Virtual) CEO
North American (Virtual) Locomotive Works

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Chuck, Post the recipe for a "Depth Charge", and I'll post a old favourite of the Canucks called (believe it or not) "Moose Milk."

I wanna highball it through Woodstock, Ont. on none other than...THE TURBOTRAIN!!!

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DOn't know if this is fact or fiction, but I heard a story that he first shot the gun out of the guy's hand, before making the kill.Probably more fiction than fact, but interesting never the less.

Dave Reage
www.geocities.com/d_reage

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