Quality Survey… Good Taste or Cut And paste?

I want to know which you like better. Time consuming hand drawn and custom painted, or a picture plastered on a model? Lately i've been noticing a lot of painters (Past and Present) trying to pull a fast one over on the MSTS world by pasting pictures on models for texture. Most of which isn't easily spotted unless you know how to paint models yourself. Let me know what you think... Great Effects, or Photoshop Rejects? Thanx
(Wp713)

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RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, pwillard, Jul-16-02, 08:17 AM, (1) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, yellowdog, Jul-16-02, 09:02 AM, (2) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, tulloch, Jul-16-02, 09:51 AM, (3) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, csxt602, Jul-16-02, 10:58 AM, (4) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, Hack, Jul-16-02, 12:25 PM, (5) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, HAC, Jul-16-02, 02:35 PM, (6) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, WestSlopeRRfan, Jul-20-02, 10:02 PM, (13) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, kenm62, Jul-16-02, 03:32 PM, (7) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, mjs2101, Jul-16-02, 04:59 PM, (8) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, TrirailF40PHL, Jul-16-02, 07:42 PM, (9) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, kyleh24, Jul-16-02, 09:19 PM, (10) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, AlabamaRailfan, Jul-23-02, 08:49 PM, (22) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, zhivago47, Jul-17-02, 01:07 PM, (11) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, nw_fan, Jul-19-02, 09:18 PM, (12) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, Engineer_Kyle, Jul-20-02, 11:44 PM, (14) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, MAX3d, Jul-21-02, 00:56 AM, (15) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, JensChris, Jul-21-02, 02:20 PM, (16) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, wp713, Jul-21-02, 10:01 PM, (17) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, arkrock, Jul-22-02, 00:57 AM, (18) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, JensChris, Jul-22-02, 10:05 AM, (19) ..., BigDave, Jul-23-02, 02:34 PM, (20) RE: ..., AlabamaRailfan, Jul-23-02, 08:47 PM, (21) RE: ..., zhivago47, Jul-24-02, 08:38 AM, (23) RE: ..., MAX3d, Jul-24-02, 02:33 PM, (24) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, hellcat, Jul-24-02, 04:18 PM, (25) RE: Quality Survey...Good Taste or Cut And paste?, SCL, Jul-26-02, 12:29 PM, (26)

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Wouldn't it actually depend on how good the results are?I've done it both ways...In some cases, the photo will work quite well, especially when everything is squared up and there are no parallax issues. You will probably need to tweak the final photo a bit if it ever got converted to a JPG, but that also depends on how clear the master image is.While hand-drawn images are my own preference as well, it's a lot of work. Especially when you have to add back all of the subtle body details like hatches, shadows, rust, dirt, etc.To summarize how I feel...
If you are looking for a really weathered appaearance on a small area... a photo is a good choice as a starting point. The random dots and graininess will add to the final result. If you are looking to make an item appear as if it is fresh from the paintshop, you'll always get better results if you hand draw it. In this case, you want to be in control of the graininess.If you want a close look at a hybrid of two methods, check out ADMXTNK2.ZIP in the file library... it's almost all hand drawn, but the length-wise color stripe logo was "extracted" from a photo.Pete Willard

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I've done it both ways, too, and both present their own challenges. Hand-drawing units is time consuming b/c all of the details have to be made. "Cutting and pasting" photos is also time consuming to get everything lined up and to get the colors to come out correctly (not to mention contacting everyone to get permission to use photos! ). If I know a lot about a model/paint scheme (my Clinchfield units for instance), I might hand paint it. If I don't know very much about it (my Seaboard MP15AC), but still want to have it in a route, I might use a photo. It's also sometimes just a matter of taste (my Chessie units). I wouldn't necessarily call cutting and pasting a photo "pulling a fast one"- -I usually work several hours on a repaint no matter which way I do it.Clayton

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Hi,Thought the move was to make MSTS as real as possible, SOO use photos, they are the BEST! Well, that be view, and I don't want to offend anyone.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-02 AT 10:59 AM (EDT)

I personally repaint all of my units in PSP 7, but alot of great looking "photo" skins have been done, such as Clayton's Chessie SD40's for example. Other photo skins I've seen look pretty bad.It's just a matter of preference I guess. If I tried to do a photo skin, my computer would probably end up in an empty hopper headed back to a West Virginia mine, as I don't have the patience to do all of that cutting, pasting, lining up, matching colors (then how do I do hand repaints?!?!). That's why I marvel at reskins such as Clayton's (I love the SBD MP15 CN!)Chris Denbow - Baltimore, Md.
CPL - http://cpl.railfan.net/

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I personally prefer hand painted units, such as those from Rick Lamp, Patrick Mahoney, Ken Martello and Kip Crawford - their techniques are first rate, and blend quite well with existing MSTS scenery. Some however, have done a great job in placing photograph-skins onto locos and rolling stock (the recent coal hoppers from WestSlopeRRfan come to mind). Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

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Ive done it both ways, and find that while you have more control with hand texturing, if you have a perfect photo - no parallax, good lighting, and really sharp, you can use it as a base to work with, and add that extra bit by hand.. Photos are also good as sources for "skin-bits" like placards, graffiti, etc.. Personally, I like doing it from scratch, but I'll uses whatever works best on a particular skin..Cheers
Harold

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THANK YOU MARC!!Its always nice to know you're doing a good job. It also helps me justify buying a digital camera. I use the real photo's cause they look the best (I think) on the side of the cars. But unfortunately can can't photograph everything. Its hard to find a lot of the older DRGW stuff. I have to agree that some of the "made-up" work looks just as good. Like your F-series for instance. Also, the authors you mentioned do good work too.Thanks
Nick

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Don't forget scans of HO models. That's how I got started. I think the first "hand painted" thing I did, was a 3DTrains CNW F7. After that, hand painting became my preferred method. But, scale models still give me a lot of reference material.Ken Martello
Kenm62's MSTS Website

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I have to say that custom painting and picture pasting can go very well together. Having recently completed my first reskin of Justin's SD40-2, in doing this Southern reskin I combined both hand drawn and picture pasting to recreate a pretty decent model. While most of the engine is hand drawn, I used pieces from pictures to add to the detail (SRR logo, radiator grills, fuel tank and trucks). I admit it is not perfect and I know I need to improve on my hand drawing skills, but I believe that both methods can go together to compliment each other.
Also I am working on doing a reskin using a picture of a 100 ton hopper. I think the key in doing this is to make sure that all aspects of the model blend in with the picture part. Having a good picture is only the beginning, getting the rest of the model that is not seen in the picture to fit in is the real challenge.
Overall it comes down to preferences. If people take time to ensure quality, then either way works.Michael

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Hand drawn, and sometimes use highly modified photos for numbers and letters.Here's an example, my Tri-Rail F40PH repaint for NALW:

It's numberboards and side numbers are both from the same photo (that was re-touched a couple-hundred times!)Take care!Kurt
KLWTrainSim
http://klwtrainsim.cjb.net

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I must agree with Kurt. It seems that some items just can't be drawn as well by hand. Particularly lights almost always look better when pasted from a good photo. Those numberboards look great too. OTOH, a crisp new loco from scratch looks great. All of John Peterson's (Alabama Raillfan) locos look really good. Hybrids work for me...

Kyle H

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Thanks Kyle! Now, how much did I say I would pay you for that plug? LOL! Highball!

John D. Peterson
Webmaster
http://www.alabamarailfan.com

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Hmmm. Interesting question.........I have never done one with pasting a picture........of course most of mine are fictional, but the few real ones I have done, I used the hand drawn method.......I personally like the challenge of doing it by hand.....including doing the sometimes impossible logos, but that is just me.......the artist in me won't let me do it with pics........might try one though just to see if it makes a difference.........I have a feeling though that it is just as tough to do because you still have to do a lot of touchup afterwards..........As for which do I prefer from others....doesn't matter as long as they've done a good job.....I have some of both and they came out very nice........
The bottom line is, does it look good when you run it in the game......who cares what method was used!
Tim
The Spur Line
http://tahunter.net/thespurline
Appalachia RR

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I believe the best paint jobs seem to be a hybrid. Straight photo, and it looks out of place mixed with the scenery in TSM. 100% drawn and it looks like a cartoon. The best I've seen are the hand-drawn textures that dtrive for a photo-realistic appearance. This makes the model blend into its surroundings, yet still look real. I don't possess the knowledge to draw the superb textures, so I start with photos, and clean them up manually. I tend to build off of the photo. Suare up windows. Clean up the photo. Expand well lit areas into shadowed areas, straighten shadows out with black hues, etc... Mike Rector

NORFOLK & WESTERN
Precision Transportation

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-20-02 AT 11:53 PM (EDT)



Just thought I would post my opinion on this one....
My personal preference would be to use photos when possible. When I make skins for locos I strive to make them as real as possible. So what I do is I make special trips to do some "railfaning" and take pictures of the actual loco or car I want to skin, thus avoiding the permission or copyright problems that could arise.
I don't know that I would call "pasting pictures on models" as "trying to pull a fast one". I have skinned several items now, both by drawing by hand and later using pictures. I must say that in some cases the "picture" versions took longer to skin than drawing from scratch, because I had to recreate areas not seen by the camera (editing out hand rails, telephone poles, etc...). I was however pleased with the results of both methods when finished.
There are very good skins of locomotives and rolling stock out there that have been made from scratch, but some look too new for my taste. I personally like mine a little on the weathered side, but that is my taste. There are also good skins out there created from using photos which can be used to recreate actual real life weathering. I don't think there is a "correct" stand on this issue, as everyone has different opinions and tastes. My goal is to become so good at skinning locomotives, or anything for that matter, that people will wonder if it is from a picture or from scratch. I learn more and more all the time about skinning, especially from this forum. I am posting shots of two recent projects below. One of them was created from photos and the other totally drawn from scratch using photos as a reference only. I am pleased with both results. Engineer Kyle

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All hand painted
PS: Second version of the RS18

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Same here except for the bogies, I almost always paste photo-cuts on bogies, but nothing else...Jens-Chris

16 years old, from Germany, MSTS 3D Add-on maker and repainter ---- Jens-Chris ----

-- "Power for You" --

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Lazy...J/k

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I prefer photos. I don't think that using photos is "trying to pull a fast one over on the MSTS world by pasting pictures on models" either! It's not just as easy as "plastering" a photo on the templates. I am certainly not a fast worker when it comes to MSTS, but I worked on my RI GP35 set for months! There is a TON of editing that goes into the models that use photos. Wouldn't we all like to have a HO scale locomotive that looked as real as a picture of the real thing? I think that a photo reskin that is done right is pretty close to perfect--actually, how could it get better? Anyways, don't mean to start a flamewar or anything--I will download and use either one--I just prefer to do mine with photos. I attached real photo of a bridge with my MSTS photo reskins edited in just for fun--it has been posted several times here, but just though i would post again! every inch is a photo or edited from a photo.
Thanks
Randy
PS
engineer kyle--great job on those repaints--they look great! even though they are UP!

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Great pic, I just miss the bridge reflection in the water ?!Jens-Chris

16 years old, from Germany, MSTS 3D Add-on maker and repainter ---- Jens-Chris ----

-- "Power for You" --

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Thundering trousers!!!I still cant beleive that Rs-18 is a model!Good job!!!
TTFN,

BigDave

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Hey Guys,
Came in late on this one, but thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth. When I first started skinning, I dabbled with copy and pasting real photos but never could get them to come out to my liking. When I started modeling, I went to hand-drawing most stuff (bogies were the main exception). Now, I like to hand paint everything. I feel it gives me much more control over how the model will look and frankly I feel it "fits" into the sim better.A new model I am working on, 100% hand painted:Highball!

John D. Peterson
Webmaster
http://www.alabamarailfan.com

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Great job John as usual, you are one of the best as far as I am concerned......As for the question, I don't cut and paste anything except maybe the bogies......hate them.......if I need lights I hand draw them, or rails, etc........I tried it once and came out worse than when I did it myself so stuck to my own drawing.......lol.......I'll be looking for that on your site......
ExcellentTim
The Spur Line
http://tahunter.net/thespurline
Appalachia RR

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Thank you Dave Believe it now? LOLDennis - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.com

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Well, when I did the SW1500 in CNW (yes it's starlight...I had a comp crash and can't get my password to get back to the original handle) I did everything by hand. Literally. Now, as I rework the model, trying to bring it to a new level of details, I'm leaning heavily on a hybrid of cut and paste and painting.Some things, which I can't paint by hand, I'm having to cut and paste. While other things I am using a layering effect to get what I want.So, looking back, I can't help but think that depending on the realisim you want, depends on the style.Cut and paste is FAST. You can have a working model on your tracks in a few short minutes. Painting may take a week or more depending on what you do. You can't fault the people who use cut and paste.I've always looked at things like some of us are artists like the brass locomotive producers of model railroading, and others (the people who cut and paste) are the plastic modelers, turning out several well done locomotives over a short time.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-26-02 AT 01:18 PM (EDT)

Howdy everyonewell, I'll admit to using so bits of photos for odd sections of loco - i.e. rads and grilles etc., but I've found that, like some others here, that by the time you've re-adjusted the photo, edited it, tried to balance colours etc., there's not a great deal of time saved. On the other hand, photo-realistic locos or rolling stock can look a bit out of place IMHO in the rest of an environment that's computer generated! Still not totally sold on cabs done that way for the same reason. So I'm sticking to Photoshop 6 and good old-fashioned paints until photo techniques can be applied to all aspects of the sim! Cheers
Ken Wright
SCL/CSX A LineHere's a repaint of one of DekoSoft's GP38-2s I'm still working on:

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