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jeff9595 (17 posts)
Feb-19-02, 10:16 AM (EST) "Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" I've been trying to absorb the "How to Edit a Signal Scripting File" that came with the default MSTS docs. It seems to me that the doc leaves out key stuff about the definitions of "blocks", "routes", "junction links", and all kinds of other stuff. Does anyone know where there's more information?Also, more info about the "auto-dispatcher". This kind of stuff would certainly affect the conversation about AI trains passing Player trains. Does this info exist?I'm not sure whether this is an "Activity" question or a "Route" question, since it seems to overlap both.Thanks to anyone who's got any ideas!Jeff Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... sniper297 Feb-19-02 1 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... jeff9595 Feb-20-02 2 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... rgarber Feb-20-02 3 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... jeff9595 Feb-20-02 4 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... bobs Feb-21-02 6 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... rgarber Feb-22-02 7 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... jeff9595 Feb-22-02 8 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... rgarber Feb-22-02 11 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... jeff9595 Feb-22-02 12 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... rgarber Feb-22-02 13 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... bobs Feb-21-02 5 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... sniper297 Feb-22-02 9 RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know ... jeff9595 Feb-22-02 10

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sniper297 (1637 posts)
Feb-19-02, 11:40 PM (EST) 1. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" Yeah, it certainly does overlap both. I've learned more about the activity editor than I ever wanted to know in the last couple months trying to get working signals and AI traffic on the PO&N. Most of the discussion about editing the signal scripts thenmselves is over in the route editor forum, you might want to look at this post:http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3600&forum=DCForumID6&omm=0You're obviously already aware of the incestuous relationship between the signal "logic" and the way the AI traffic is set up in the activity editor. The other thing you need to know is the "who's on first" nature of signal scripting and setup.Q. How do you set up AI traffic?
A. Depends on how the signals on the route are set up.
Q. How do you set up signals on the route?
A. Depends on how you want to set up AI traffic.I uploaded PO&N5 recently, you could try to reverse-engineer that, but unfortunately I set up the signals for the way I wanted the activities to go, and conventional activities probably wouldn't work with my screwy signal system. Bob Siederer went the total opposite direction that I did for Marias Pass 3, that's probably a better one to look at if you want to make conventional activities.There's no easy answer to your question, since how you set up signals depends on what you want them to do. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jeff9595 (17 posts)
Feb-20-02, 09:26 AM (EST) 2. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" Thanks for the info!I can see how the signal scripting is very inter-related to both AI and Player train operation, but I'm not seeing how. Here's a real simple comparison. I've got a consist sitting smack dab on my Player Train's route. Player Train comes up to a Red signal (since the Block is obviously not clear). On Route #1, the Player Train stops at the Red signal; I've got a stalemate. On Route #2, the Player Train runs right through the Red Signal, and smashes into the static consist. But at another signal on that same Route #2, the Player Train does stop at the Red, when there's a consist sitting on the route in front of it. And, of course, the signal is not "failed".Can't for the life of me find the parameter which controls interaction between the signal and the behavior of the train.For the record, for this example, Route #1 is MSTS Default Innsbruck, Route #2 is Michael Vone's Albula Pass. I've asked Michael about this, but he couldn't help much. I've repeated the experiment on other routes, with other signals. Any ideas? Where to look?Thanks sincerely for any help!
Jeff
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rgarber (1257 posts)
Feb-20-02, 10:20 AM (EST) 3. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" Let me try my hand at explaining this.My view of signals is different than most people. To me, the signals aren't the problem. They tend to give the proper indication when needed. However, everything after that, is a different matter. I have no data to support my conclusions except my work done on the East Metro and the activities.My problem is my dispatcher. See, ole Joe somehow got the job he does and well, like a union, I can't fire him. He was hired on by local MSTS#0001. See ole Joe is more concerned about the path than anything. He does give signals their due though. But if you got stalemates and trains running reds, you got path problems.The first rule in setting up traffic trains is to make sure the player train and the traffic train are at least 3 signals apart. Any less and ole Joe flounders.Second rule. Automatic switches only for AI trains. This doesn't mean you can't use manual switches. But if you draw a traffic train path through a manual switch, make sure nobody throws that switch since ole Joe refuses to throw manual switches. Why? I guess its cause he's got to get up from his duff to do it. I have no idea what mindset was behind this logic.Third rule. Begin Passing path. Has to be done through automatic switches. Give this option to the traffic train. Now to do this, you draw the path of the traffic train through the straight part of the switches. Using the Begin Passing Path option will allow the train to take the turn-out portion of the switches. Now here we go again. It has come to light recently that some good 'folk' have discovered you can get the AI Train to pass you by drawing the AI path through the turn-out portion of the switch I believe. So you might want to keep this option on the table but do look up those threads to see how this is done. Can't tell ya here.The next thing you can do is acquire my Activity Tutorial that I wrote for Abacus. There is some coverage of how to write for traffic trains and signals are covered to some extent. No one can really tell you how its done because no one really knows for certain.With my next route, I hope to uncover the mystery of signals. I have a theory I'll be testing with it. I set the trackage up a certain way. The biggest problem with activity creation is the length of time it takes to get 'predictable' results. If I'm right then we can have 'better' luck anticipating what these 'blaggers' will do and save countless hundreds of hours and lives (lives???) creating activities.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jeff9595 (17 posts)
Feb-20-02, 11:20 AM (EST) 4. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-02 AT 11:22 AM (EST)Thanks Sniper and Rich! I've printed out that thread on the Routes Forum; I've got to try and absorb what they're talking about. And looks like we've got some psychological analysis in store for ol' Joe the auto-dispatcher. Rich, I've got your Guide to Activities book, but I haven't yet checked out that Tutorial you mentioned.Anything else that surfaces in this area, please let us know. I'll try to do the same. Thank you!Jeff Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (464 posts)
Feb-21-02, 10:04 PM (EST) 6. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-02 AT 10:05 PM (EST)The first rule in setting up traffic trains is to make sure the player train and the traffic train are at least 3 signals apart. Any less and ole Joe flounders.
I think this really depends on the value of the number of clear blocks parameter in the signal configs, and I think you mean that when a traffic train comes into existance, it has to be x signals away.
Second rule. Automatic switches only for AI trains. This doesn't mean you can't use manual switches. But if you draw a traffic train path through a manual switch, make sure nobody throws that switch since ole Joe refuses to throw manual switches. Why? I guess its cause he's got to get up from his duff to do it. I have no idea what mindset was behind this logic.
Joe won't throw them back the way they were, that is true. But he will throw them just like they were automatics as long as you don't interfere and throw something yourself. This is one of the few things we have been able to verify with Kuju as Paul had contact with the MSTS project manager for a while.
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rgarber (1257 posts)
Feb-22-02, 01:16 AM (EST) 7. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" Bob,"I think this really depends on the value of the number of clear blocks parameter in the signal configs..."Could be, but until you can show me otherwise that what you say to be true, I don't know where you've demonstrated this to be done except in posts.Correct me if I'm wrong but I could've sworn I just answered one of your posts where you can't get the activity to work in the sim and the basic flaw here is you don't understand the problems manual switches cause traffic trains. "But he will throw them just like they were automatics as long as you don't interfere and throw something yourself."Only partially true and almost impractical as a point. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to get down on you but I don't see where this statement has any use. These traffic trains don't happen within a vacuum. The whole point of the person using them is there is going to be some interaction between the player and the traffic train. If the traffic train is on its own line and there is no intersection of the two, then you are correct. However, if there is intersection of the two then you are incorrect.Like I said, go by what's in the Activity Tutorial as a starting place. It's not comprehensive, and it's not meant to be. Traffic train interaction is predominantly understanding how paths interact. IMO, forget about trying to understand what's wrong with signals. It's not the signals. It's the paths that cause us the problems.Hope this helps. Hope I worded this right, it's late!Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jeff9595 (17 posts)
Feb-22-02, 09:37 AM (EST) 8. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" Rich, I'm with you on all this. My testing is showing me that the major restriction on flexibility are the exact hunks of path section to path section, and how they intersect, as controlled by SIGNALS. Nothing stops a train, AI or Player (unless you set the brake on the player) except a SIGNAL. You can have all the intersecting paths and trains you want; as far as I can see, everything will keep moving, and crash into each other, except for the restraining action of a signal.So the continuing mystery to me, given all the above, is the note I made in the post up above after Sniper's response to my first question. Why do some Red Signal indicators stop a train, and some don't, allowing it to sail right through into a collision? Simple example. A player train chugging along it's path. Comes upon a signal, which is Red, cause right after the signal, there sits a consist, not even a train. Obviously, the "Block" is not "Clear". At some signals the player train stops, nothing you can do to make it pass through the signal. At other signals it disregards the signal completely, plows right through and crashes into the consist.It's really hard to see that we're dealing only with the path here. There must be something in the signal configuration (or interconnection with other signals) that accounts for this different affect on the train.Muddles me! But I do appreciate your emphasis on the critical importance of the paths.Thanks!Jeff
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rgarber (1257 posts)
Feb-22-02, 12:21 PM (EST) 11. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" Ahhh... now this is a little clearer and a little more confusing too..."Simple example. A player train chugging along it's path. Comes upon a signal, which is Red, cause right after the signal, there sits a consist, not even a train. Obviously, the "Block" is not "Clear". At some signals the player train stops, nothing you can do to make it pass through the signal. At other signals it disregards the signal completely, plows right through and crashes into the consist."One thing that I noticed is you never want to draw a path through a static consist. It will give a red every time somewhere down the path. The AI seems to see the static consist the same as it does a manual switch thrown the wrong direction. So the train should stop. But here is where now I am confused. The player should be stopping the engine himself and not run the red. But also, you shouldn't have made it far enough into the next block before hitting the static consist. You should be getting the activity terminating 'you just ignored a red light, activity ending' message. But I have heard situations where a person was able to run a red and go much further than they expected. By any chance is this something you are observing while still in the Activity Editor?I love this theory stuff btw, so here's one of my own on what maybe something we're not paying attention enough to make activity creation more predictable. This is just a hunch I've had for awhile now but I don't have time to really explore this. One thing that I found to be a problem with discovering the mystery of signals was I have two instances on the Metro that are not AI dispatcher friendly. In both instances the mainline uses the turn-out portion of the switch to continue north. I believe the AI in MSTS does not like that. I have a hunch that the logic doesn't include that option which made some meets on parts of the route next to nearly impossible to do. This is hard to say but when we have to resort to timing to make AI trains work, something is wrong somewhere. But I don't believe its just in the path or the signals. It could also be that Kuju's logic didn't include all possible situations. Which leads me to another speculation. It could be the answer to the mystery is in the path points themselves. And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this may have something to do with pickups not working either.I saw something in Metro that I didn't have time to figure out while working with pickups. Then I saw it again while doing this new route. But without path points bracketing a fuel point pickup, it doesn't show in the AE. So what does this have to do with player and AI traffic paths? Ever notice when placing a Begin Passing Path the AE draws a path point when there isn't one? I find that to be quite odd. And from these two instances, it just makes me wonder if by neglecting the path points we are missing a part of the equation to make traffic/player train behavior more predictable.Just a hunch.
Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jeff9595 (17 posts)
Feb-22-02, 02:35 PM (EST) 12. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" OK, I've got a confession to make, something I usually don't mention, cause, to say the least, my interest here is not particularly popular. I program my activities in ITR (Introductory Train Ride) mode, where the activity runs itself. I've got some somewhat elaborate things set up, and ideas for a lot more elaborate ones, hence my interest in this subject.That said, I think the stuff I've learned is pretty directly applicable to AI train control by conventional activities. I'm convinced that the unique thing about ITR mode is that the AI dispatcher (ole Joe) runs the Player Train, just like it runs the usual AI trains. So what I'm doing here is studying a fairly elaborate, completely AI interaction.That brings me to your really thoughtful response. First, the examples I cite are in the sim itself, not in the AE. The AE is NOT a good predictor of train response to signals (which I'm sure you've observed). Rather, I set up little test ACTs and run them to see how the interaction will pan out, then try to drop them into full-fledged runs. This one with the Red Signals is what's got me really flustered, and running to the Signal Config documentation. Of course, with ITRs, the only alert is "Your ITR has ended!", so instead of a stop alert, the trains just collide, which is actually convenient, cause you see a simplified version of things. And with the consist, sometimes I need to program a stalemate on purpose, so I just put a consist on the path. I've never had my Player Train stop earlier than at the Signal controlling the Block that the consist is sitting on. I've just never seen the "3 blocks ahead" phenomenon.But I'm listening, I'm listening! Never dealt with path points. I always saw them as some derivative of the turnout. Is there any independent control over the existence of a path point, or do they just appear and disappear?And a note on mainline through the turn of a turnout. On the default Innsbruck line, just east of the Landeck tunnel, there's a significant instance of the mainline running through the turn of a left turnout. There's only one signal controlling eastward traffic thru the turnout, and from my experiments, nothing I've ever tried has behaved abnormally there.THANK YOU for all your thought about this. I hope my little observations about an admittedly unconventional activity for MSTS can further this exploration of AI activity (and ole Joe!)Jeff Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (1257 posts)
Feb-22-02, 03:15 PM (EST) 13. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" Well, now you got me. I'm not familiar with ITR. But the gist of what I get is the AI is controling the player train. What I would speculate here is this could be throwing you some loopers because the AI does monitor the track ahead of it even when signals aren't present. For instance, in the one activity, the OC Crude to BC Oil one, after passing Smallville and coming down into Metro City, a log train is stopped at a switch where there is no signal. That situation has always perplexed me for two reasons. One, it stopped when nothing observeable told it to (see, Ole Joe does work... sometimes), and two, he starts up the same train after you passed it. But! The thing is, he goes through a manual switch thrown against him. This is why I qualified somewhere that the rule changes when the AI Train comes through the back end of the switch. Just like the player train, the switch is thrown without any effort on the part of the player when doing the same. So what am I saying here? Well several things really. But in the context of the ITR, it may not be giving you the same results if you did it in regular sim mode.But again, this is another instance where the path seems to prevail as the arbitrary decider of what goes where when a sim is running. While reading many of Jim Ward's post on this, this is one area we were in complete agreement. It does appear that the player path dominates the decision making of the AI.On how to create path points. Path points are created when a switch is included. Something else creates a path point too but I can't recall at the moment what it is. Path points show up in the Activity Editor as the big black dots. If you turn on path points, then the path points that make up your player/ai path turn green.Anyway, the gist of all this is to troubleshoot a problem, you have to narrow the variables that can effect the outcome. All kinds of situations are makeable that can skew your results. For instance, I'm curious about Bill's (longhairwizard) idea that creating a train longer than a siding can cause the dispatcher to behave differently. It certainly puts a different twist on things.Like everybody else, I would like to see this traffic train stuff solved. There does seem to be a hierarchy of levels to making an activity happen starting with how the tracks and signals are laid out. It's complex enough that I hope with my new route I have laid the tracks out right where results allow us to make predictable results.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (464 posts)
Feb-21-02, 09:56 PM (EST) 5. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" I love your little Q&A! That states the problem so well!!! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (1637 posts)
Feb-22-02, 12:05 PM (EST) 9. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" Hell, you can quote me in the tutorial if you want.
Q. How do you set up signals on a passing siding?
A. Depends on the signumclearahead value in the sigcfg.dat file.
Q. So what value should I enter for signumclearahead?
A. It depends on how you set up passing sidings.All together now, "There's a hole in the buck-et, Dear Li-za, Dear Li-za..." Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jeff9595 (17 posts)
Feb-22-02, 12:14 PM (EST) 10. "RE: Signal Scripting - Anyone know more info?" Oh-mah-gawd! A songster in our midst!You know, they did say that logic derives from music. Back in ancient Greek days. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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