SFNRS when hacking AI consists

http://www.railpage.org.au/steam4me/trainsim/tutorials/hack_act.htmI got a new one using that old method, when I change the slightest thing about any of the 3 AI consists I'm using to test PO&N9, I get SFNRS (Stop For No Reason Syndrome). I used the simplified consists from PO&N8, three nearly identical consists of 1 BNSF GP38 with 9 default US2freight cars for the original signal configuration. After a lot of fiddling around I finally got the AI traffic running smoothly in both directions, altho along the way I was getting wierd things like the first 13 AI trains running thru with no problem, then #14 stops at the 23rd junction or whatever and waits for #13 to get 19 signals ahead before continuing. Bad exhaust fumes from #13? Anyway, finally got all that cured so it will run either direction with those 3 consists, and decided to try changing the consists. All I did was add 3 cars and a caboose to each one, and the #2 service stops about a quarter of the way thru the run, and waits the two hours for #1 to run the final 50 miles or so to the endpoint before continuing. REALLY bad exhaust fumes! Why it follows #1 thru a dozen junctions and about 30 or so signals before it stops I have no idea. Restoring the original .con files fixed the problem, so after further experiments I found that even changing the geep to an SD40, or replacing the default BNSF geep with a repaint (which has the exact same physics), gets the same SFNRS effect.So back to square one, "use as template" to clone the services and consists, add new cars, change the engines, whatever in the new consists, then hack the maxvelocity line so they run at the same speed. Create a new traffic pattern with the clones and it runs just fine, change the slightest thing in the clones and it fouls up again.Anybody getting this on other routes? I open the .srv file in wordpad;Service_Definition (
Serial ( 1 )
Name ( cwFreight1 )
Train_Config ( PONfreight1 )
PathID ( cw )
MaxWheelAcceleration ( 0 )
Efficiency ( 0.75 )
TimeTable (
StartingSpeed ( 0 )
EndingSpeed ( 0 )
StartInWorld ( 0 )
EndInWorld ( 0 )And other than the efficiency, which hasn't changed, I can't see anything that would be affected by editing the consist, blasted thing should be perfectly happy as long as the name don't change.One thing I did figure out in all this, the numbers in the .trf file are in seconds after midnight;Traffic_Definition ( cw0600
Serial ( 8 )
Service_Definition ( cwFreight1 21600 )
Service_Definition ( cwFreight1 23400 )21,600 /60 /60 = 6, 23400 /60 /60 = 6.5, so 21600 = 6:00AM, 23400 = 6:30AM, you want to manually hack to add a service, 12 X 60 X 60 = 43200 for a 12:00 noon starting time. Be advised the info in the .trf file is duplicated in each activity that uses that traffic pattern, so if you're gonna hack an existing one you should open the activities, select "none" for the traffic pattern, save and exit. After hacking the .trf you can reopen the activity(s) and add the traffic pattern back in.Possibly the "Serial ( 8 )" in the .trf and .srv files mean something, but I dunno what.

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RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., GaryG, Jun-29-04, 05:45 PM, (1) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., jtsdadinaz, Jun-30-04, 08:10 AM, (2) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., sniper297, Jun-30-04, 11:28 AM, (3) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., GaryG, Jun-30-04, 11:59 AM, (4) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., oakpalms, Jul-01-04, 10:23 AM, (5) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., GaryG, Jul-01-04, 12:41 PM, (6) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., sniper297, Jul-01-04, 07:01 PM, (7) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., scefhwil, Jul-02-04, 07:22 AM, (8) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., sniper297, Jul-03-04, 11:34 AM, (9) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., scefhwil, Jul-03-04, 01:20 PM, (10) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., sniper297, Jul-04-04, 09:26 PM, (11) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., scefhwil, Jul-05-04, 07:05 AM, (12) RE: SFNRS when hacking AI consists., sniper297, Jul-05-04, 08:24 PM, (13)

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HiThe Serial appears to be nothing but an incrementing version number. I don't think it is crossreferenced although it may be one of the magic ways MSTS decides if a saved run is still valid.There is one in a routes .tdb file and I've manually edited it to stop complaints about activities being for a different version.GaryG

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Something that I have noticed is, while using the Ae editor and you initially create a consist the serial line is not there, change something in the consist using the AE editor and the serial line is now there and it gets incremented..

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-04 AT 11:36 AM (EST)

Grrrr. Well, usually the AE consist editor is to blame for wierdness, but in this case I used conbuilder to change the consists. Fiddling with the serial numbers in the .srv, .con, and .trf files to make them match each other has no effect. I even got so desperate as to try the "Compute and save" button, but as I expected that didn't fix anything.Next I created consists and services from scratch, cloned the path so the services would each have their own associated .pat file instead of running on the same path, and created a new traffic pattern from scratch. Same effect, 1 and 2 breeze thru all the way to the end, #3 stops after half an hour and waits for 1 and 2 to finish the run before moving again, then #4 follows #3 for about 50 miles and a couple dozen signals before it stops dead, waiting for #3 to finish the run. Almost seems like I set up the signals for these 3 consists (PONfreight1, 2, and 3 from PONver8.zip), and it refuses to run anything else. Makes absolutely no sense. PI Trainmaster ready yet?

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HiA tip that may save your hair ...Once you have done a "Compute and save" and created an .asv file, future edits with the Activity Editor will not get inserted into the .asv file unless you do another "Compute and save" every time you update; saved changes also won't show when you run the Activity unless you do a C&S each time.The shortcoming is MSTS will always use a .asv file if it exists, totally ingoring a .act file even if it is newer than the .asv file. It's quite easy to forget the C&S and you end up wondering why the latest changes aren't there when you run it or edit it next time.The safest move is to ignore the C&S option, it doesn't appear to save much loading time anyway (and who knows, may introduce errors). If, as in this case, you have created a .asv file, all you need do is delete the .asv leaving the .act alone and you're back to the original, non-confusing "Save" mode.GaryG

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When you find that paths are messed up or whatever, I think you can redo the entire activity including the .asv file by doing a "Save As" and then use the same file name. I think this then cleans out all the clutter and puts new data in place. I have been doing this and not having to touch the .asv files.At least when I do this, MSTS seams to take a while to apparently delete data or files and then rebuilds everything with the new data.Try it and see if it works. It would be a lot easier than going to the folder and deleting the asv file.Bob Edwards

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Excellent Discovery Bob!I tried it, the Activity name was defaulted to the correct name, just needed to click the overwrite approval and yes it does delete the .asv file; no negatives, all positives, just one extra click.Thanks for passing this one on.GaryG

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Hee-hee, wierd. Well, not relevant in this case since I did delete the .asv file, all these are temporary activities just for testing anyway. Only thing I wanted to know was would "compute and save" fix the problem, but it don't, so I still don't see what it's useful for.This really bites, but considering a replacement for MSTS should be here sometime within the next year, I think I'm just gonna finish the scenery and upload the little eggshell with the existing consists. I can always upload a patch later assuming I figure the problem out, meantime it works provided you don't change the AI consists for something else. How wierd is that?!

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IIRC two consists with identical MaxVelocity lines will not necessarily proform the same in the sim because of AI 'slowing on curves'. This is controlled by some parameters in the .eng and .wag files that are referenced by the .con file. Off hand I can't recall the exact effect of the parameters but it's been discussed here before:-http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID7/1413.html

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Yeah, the drag on the curves does affect them differently. I started the PO&N with nothing but 10d manual switches, and when I added the AI traffic route in version 5 I used 10d auto switches at the junctions, any AI train slows down going thru a 10d switch. I have toyed with the idea of converting all the junctions to 5d auto switches so the AI never goes thru a sharp curve, but the 5d eats up a lot of real estate and it's probably more work than it's worth.Not the issue here tho, since they're stopping at red signals. That's the worst trouble with MSTS, the incestuous relationship between the paths and the signals, the signals affect how the path advances, and the paths affect how the signals work. Can't just set one and adjust the other to work with it, any change in either changes how the other works. Or rather DOESN'T work.

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The point I was thinking about was that if the 'edited' consist causes the use of a loco which, because of .eng file parameters, will slow more on curves it will eventually arrive at locations (signals) later than expected won't it? Could this be causing the 'stop at reds' problem?

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Nope. Got one coming downhill on a long straight section off the doubledeck bridge, where the AI train stops at the interlocking while still on the downhill straight. The interlocking is red, problem being that the path isn't pushing thru it to throw the switches. No idea why. Funny thing, replacing one car with a different one in all 3 consists and keeping the same engine had the same effect, SFNRS going clockwise, worked fine going counterclockwise.Having done nothing but added static scenery, mostly trees and buildings, without ever touching the track or signals for the last week, suddenly it's screwed up again and won't run the original simplified consists in both direction. Now clockwise works fine, counterclockwise the first train starts near Tinkers, runs downhill and across the bridge, and stops at the place I just talked about on the straight track just before the interlocking. Create a traffic pattern with one and only one AI train and it will stop there and refuse to move.Obviously I'm gonna have to reverse back to PO&N 6 or something and start over, something about the track configuration and/or these signals is just too doggone fragile.

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Hee-hee, you said a mouthful, Stu.http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/23982.htmlThat's the latest on this, seems to be tied in to the phase of the moon or something.

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