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"KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design"

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KingJPW (240 posts)
Jul-27-01, 02:34 PM (EST) "KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" Principles to live by:1) AI trains suck, are more effort than they are worth, and are unnecesary to the enjoyment of the game.
2) AI trains will not be satisfied until they END your activity.
3) If you must have AI trains, put them on a path that you NEVER plan to ride on.
4) Focus on placing 'Loose COnsists' on your layout instead of AI Trains. (If you drive past them real fast they sorta look like they're moving!)
5) Use 'MSTS Buddy' to randomize the loose consists in your activity (Version 1.3 coming soon...) for variety every time you start the activity.KingJPW Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... RailroadKing Jul-28-01 1 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... Denny Jul-28-01 2 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... flarrfan Jul-28-01 3 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... Denny Jul-28-01 5 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... bleuzzmann Jul-28-01 4 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... RailroadKing Jul-28-01 6 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... Dokkensound Jul-28-01 7 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... ergobob Jul-28-01 8 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... jkcooney Aug-31-01 18 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... tulsarailfan Jul-29-01 9 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... bleuzzmann Jul-29-01 10 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... Denny Jul-29-01 11 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... edwardk Jul-29-01 12 AI trains to a stop funnelfan Jul-30-01 13 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... wecline Aug-02-01 14 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... KingJPW Aug-03-01 15 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... sniper297 Aug-04-01 16 RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activi... Denny Aug-04-01 17

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RailroadKing (207 posts)
Jul-28-01, 03:28 AM (EST) 1. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" Well I like the AI trains In fact one of my first activities I made had 6 AI trains which created a ton a traffic on the route for the player to deal with. Not to mention having to watch the signals for a collision. The key is to play it out while within the activity editor so you can see exactly how they will run in the game. Doing this I was able to perfect those AI trains to start and go extacly where I wanted them to during the times I specified. I am working on a new activity that will have about 4 or 5 AI trains and when I am finished it I will upload it here. Really my only problem with the AI trains is that when I pass one of them or they pass me by my frame rates drop very low on my 450mhz.Oh, that Buddy program of yours looks very interesting. I have not got around to downloading it yet but I certainly will soon. Looks like I nice job to me especially using random consists. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Denny (171 posts)
Jul-28-01, 08:10 AM (EST) 2. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" I'd like to know what the advertising costs are here. Because that's what your doing. Your plugging a product (MSTS Buddy)that your offering for sale. The only place you should be doing that is your site. I dont see 3d trainstuff people advertising their upcoming add-ons here. They only do it at their site.
If you continue this spamming practice, I intend to complain to the webmaster here. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
flarrfan (268 posts)
Jul-28-01, 08:56 AM (EST) 3. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" I disagree with King on AI traffic. I have done three long-haul activities with lots of AI trains, and except for a report from one tester (who got way behind time due to confusion on a setout) I have not had one single AI caused problem. A key to avoiding problems and FPS hits is SHORT PATHS for AI trains. You should also note that the VCR tool is not always accurate. I did one .act where it showed the AI train (a hot pig train) stopping everytime to wait for my low priority road freight, no matter how I changed player performance numbers. Yet when I actually ran the .act, the AI went barrelling past me at a different place! Again, if you have long stretches of 2MT or long passing sidings, the short paths help to make sure there are no conflicts.If you want to look into my activity design structure, go here and download:http://overseasrailroad.railfan.net/flarrfanAnd as to Mr. Denny's response, lighten up. This is a first amendment forum, you are free to ignore King's Buddy posts if you want, it's nice if people want to make this a hobby and share without compensation, but when an IT professional spends lots of time developing a tool for the sim and wants to be paid for his work, it's up to the free marketplace to decide if his work is worth paying for. It's time to stop philosophical freeware vs. payware debates and time to let the market control. MHO. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Denny (171 posts)
Jul-28-01, 10:31 AM (EST) 5. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" to flarrfan,
"when an IT professional spends lots of time developing a tool for the sim and wants to be paid for his work, it's up to the free marketplace to decide if his work is worth paying for. It's time to stop philosophical freeware vs. payware debates and time to let the market control. MHO."My problem here is not an issue of charging for services done. that's the creators perogative to either charge or not for his effort and time. What I take exception to is the ad quips for his product posted here on a public forum set up for enthusiasts of the simulation to share their views, ask and answer questions and be of support to each other. From your comments I see that you design activities, and I share your feelings on AI trains. I have created an activity and posted it here. But what if you and I decide to charge for our work. Thats certainly no problem. Free marketplace. But then we both decide to "plug" our product here. And ten or twenty other skinners or designers decide that they too ought to plug their work here. What do we have then. Spamcity. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bleuzzmann (227 posts)
Jul-28-01, 10:15 AM (EST) 4. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" NEWSFLASH! NEWSFLASH! It is possible to ignore posts here on the forum. Simply take note of the name of the person you DON'T want to read posts from....and then DON'T click on them! It works, it's amaaaaaaazzing!Wanna know what spam is? People who post messages always complaining. Admit it, there's far too much of it here. People think the forums exist so they can spew about whatever is their current pain in the ass problem. That said, here's my take on MSTS Buddy...I didn't write it so I don't have ANY commercial interest...I think it's a GREAT utility. It's tough to pry any money out of me, I was a freeware author for several years. But I do buy add-ons that make my life easier and help the sim perform better. That's precisely what MSTS does. Wanna scan your activity files for that glitched up reference to a train car you don't have? The one that's generating that annoying error message each time you start MSTS? MSTS Buddy can do it! Want to randomize the cars in a consist so it's not the same ol' train each time? MSTS Buddy can do it!
Want to print out the work orders in an activity so you know you'll have to pick up cars 0-11 through 0-14 at Cutbank and then drop cars 0-6 and 0-9 at WhiteFish and then pick up four new cars at Essex? MSTS Buddy can do it! Make a brand new consist for your favorite activity using only Santa Fe cars, with no two cars in a row? MSTS Buddy can do it! And on and on....So the guy makes a few bucks with it. He ain't getting rich believe me, not in proportion to the time it takes him writing code at 2:40 am. So he 'talks it up' a bit here on the forum? BFD.Back to line one. If you don't want to read his posts...DON'T.
Use a more selective message selection procedure. It's not rocket science.
bill
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RailroadKing (207 posts)
Jul-28-01, 02:14 PM (EST) 6. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" I don't think King is spamming at all. I mean look at the first page of this website. They have been placing much news about MSTS Buddy on there and it is to my belief that everyone here already knows about it. It would be one thing if King was continuously posting stuff like "Get MSTS Buddy" or "Buy MSTS Buddy it is the best program". But he is not, he only mentions it in that post above and I imagine he already is paying train-sim.com for avertising on the front page. Besides if he wanted to spam he could just come on this board with a completely different name and praise MSTS Buddy, simple as that. Just my thoughts about this and we all have different ones Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Dokkensound (70 posts)
Jul-28-01, 04:55 PM (EST) 7. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" NO AI TRAINS!!! Not in my lifetime. What fun or realism are Nothing but green lights. AI trains following you are a problem as the AI engineers just don't get it but ahead of you is great. I fill activities with lots of opposing traffic. It starts at one end of the line and runs all the way to the other. If you can't make it work then you should re-do your traffic paths. You have made a mistake somewhere. Trains on sidings are great but most lines in the real world have some traffic. Hopefully version 2 will have better trained AI engineers and some type of prioity number you can assign to trains. The % thing only really effects the timetable generation and not well.
R. Easterday (DokkenSound)
"But these go to "11""
Spinal Tap Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
ergobob (338 posts)
Jul-28-01, 10:04 PM (EST) 8. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" Two things:I don't think that questions or comments pertaining to MSTS Buddy are Spam because it is a useful utility for MSTS and there are questions and issues relevant to MSTS. It would be like not discussing FSNav on Flight Sim Forums because it now costs money.I think that MSTS Buddy is a very useful utility for MSTS in both Activities and Explore modes. I do like activities to learn what other folks have in mind, to learn how a train might typically be operated, and the AI trains make it fun. I am new to trains and the Activities are great learning tools. They make you do things that you might not think of on your own if you are new at this.I use MSTS Buddy with the Activities primarily and like it very much.bob Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jkcooney (452 posts)
Aug-31-01, 07:55 AM (EST) 18. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" Haven't tackled AI trains yet... but I am getting there. My learning curve on this is quite steep. But I would like to be able to place freight on the sidings along the line. What is the procedure for this? Can they also be made to appear if you are simply in "Explore" mode or must you have them WITHIN an activity?
Thanks...Joe Cooney Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
tulsarailfan (19 posts)
Jul-29-01, 08:11 AM (EST) 9. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" Comments on 2 issues:
I DO wish the AI trains had more "I". That having been said, I love to populate my activities with them, they create interest and a challenge. I enjoy waiting in sidings for trains to pass etc.BUT this can be problematic. With switching activities (local freight) especially, there is simply no way to accurately predict meets, etc., with the VCR tool. The only reliable way is to play the activity through several times. I've been trying to post a CSX local in the Northeast Corridor for some time, the biggest consumer of time has been adjusting the AI traffic to jibe w/ the expected player activity. I'd certainly prefer it if trains wouldn't run into the rear of your train, that certainly isn't realistic! But at least we HAVE AI trains.As to the comments on KingJPW's MSTS Buddy, I disagree with those who say he shouldn't post info on that here. This forum is where we go to get information on the sim, and this utility promises to be a useful addition to that sim. Also, it's SHAREWARE for heaven's sake, requiring a DONATION, not the same as an off the shelf product. I'm sure all KingJPW can hope to do with 'selling' this product is to break even on some of the time he's devoted to developing this, to the benefit of many users out there who don't want to mess w/ the Activity Editor. Although I personally haven't tried MSTS buddy I think it promises to be an interesting and useful addition and warrants mention in this forum, especially in the tasteful and discreet manner in which KingJPW did mention it.
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bleuzzmann (227 posts)
Jul-29-01, 11:07 AM (EST) 10. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" LAST EDITED ON Jul-29-01 AT 11:09 AM (EST)Haven't tried MSTS Buddy YET? I wouldn't even bother with the demo...just pop for the purchase price and buy it. It really is a great utility and KingJPW just keeps making it better. You can now print the activity briefings which is a BIG plus, and I'd imagine he'll soon add the capability to print the work orders. But that's a small part of the total package. It does much more. Buy it. bill
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Denny (171 posts)
Jul-29-01, 11:44 AM (EST) 11. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" Nels agrees that the author of MSTS Buddy hasnt stepped over the line, so I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to the author and those others in this thread for my over-zealous comments.
Denny Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
edwardk (8 posts)
Jul-29-01, 06:24 PM (EST) 12. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" What I would like to see improved with the AI trains is the ability to have them pull into a yard and disconnect from the cars so that you can break them down. As it stands now if you have an activity that involves having an AI train pull into a yard, well this happens but they disappear once they come to a stop.Edward K. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
funnelfan (46 posts)
Jul-30-01, 05:10 AM (EST) 13. "AI trains to a stop" To have a AI train come to a stop in a yard put a wait point just before the end of the AI train's path. Put enough time on so the player's train is long gone before the AI train moves again and disappears.Ted Curphey
funnelfan@icehouse.net Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
wecline (33 posts)
Aug-02-01, 04:11 PM (EST) 14. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" A very gracious note, Denny. To admit an error in judgement is one of mankind's most endearing qualities.Bill Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
KingJPW (240 posts)
Aug-03-01, 10:09 PM (EST) 15. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" Denny,I guess by my late response you can tell that I don't read the 'Activities' sction all that often. Anyway, I agree that spam is annoying. I try to mention Buddy in a tasteful and appropriate manner, and usually within the context of an existing thread. I really only post about Buddy when I have a new version to release, and I mention the new features so existing users will download it.The purpose of this post was to spark a debate about AI trains (This is the activity section, you know). I could have very easily left out point 5, but it was relevent to my design principles. So back to the subject at hand: AI Trains. Man, they sure do suck...

Apology accepted.KingJPW
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sniper297 (311 posts)
Aug-04-01, 00:23 AM (EST) 16. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-01 AT 00:25 AM (EST)Actaully you can predict meets. When the train passes a given milepost or siding, write down the time. In the days before radios, real conductors (the actual boss of the train in the old days) carried big, accurate pocket watches and had all the info on when the next train was due to pass, so they could make the executive decision on whether to let the engineer carry out a switching operation, move to the next passing siding, or wait until the next train passed before proceeding. How close the conductor of a freight train was willing to cut it was a direct factor in most "cornfield meets". Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Denny (171 posts)
Aug-04-01, 06:56 PM (EST) 17. "RE: KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design" king, thanks for your reply.
denny Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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