Double reverse point not working

Does anybody have any idea why a double reverse point I placed doesn't work in the sim? I tested it with the VCR to the AE, and it showed the pair of reverse points to work fine. The leading point ends up getting dragged (and dragged) in the sim. My train has enough room within which to reverse. Plus the pair of points fall between platform deliminators.Might its not working be because the lead reversal point is too close to the signal ahead, i.e., by a distance of around ten metres? If so, might the distance between a placed signal and its red pyramid need to be guaged better by a route builder, for I've experienced no such trouble with the interactivity of signal and double-reverse-point placements in the route I'm constructing (my own signals are also close to the lead end of each of my platforms)?Cheers,
goonybird

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RE: double reverse point not working, GaryG, Jun-20-04, 01:04 PM, (1) RE: double reverse point not working, goonybird, Jun-20-04, 01:15 PM, (2) RE: double reverse point not working, goonybird, Jun-21-04, 01:40 PM, (3) RE: double reverse point not working, kevarc, Jun-21-04, 01:49 PM, (4) RE: double reverse point not working, goonybird, Jun-21-04, 02:52 PM, (5) RE: double reverse point not working, GaryG, Jun-21-04, 03:51 PM, (6) RE: double reverse point not working, goonybird, Jun-21-04, 05:49 PM, (7) RE: double reverse point not working, GaryG, Jun-22-04, 00:17 AM, (8) RE: double reverse point not working, goonybird, Jun-22-04, 00:57 AM, (9) RE: double reverse point not working, goonybird, Jun-23-04, 01:03 PM, (10) RE: double reverse point not working, GaryG, Jun-23-04, 04:40 PM, (11) RE: double reverse point not working, goonybird, Jun-24-04, 01:09 AM, (12) RE: double reverse point not working, GaryG, Jun-24-04, 02:45 AM, (13) RE: double reverse point not working, robertreedy, Jun-24-04, 12:02 PM, (14) RE: double reverse point not working, GaryG, Jun-24-04, 01:16 PM, (15) RE: double reverse point not working, kevarc, Jun-24-04, 02:19 PM, (16) RE: double reverse point not working, goonybird, Jun-24-04, 03:15 PM, (17) RE: double reverse point not working, goonybird, Jun-24-04, 04:58 PM, (18) RE: double reverse point not working, GaryG, Jun-24-04, 05:27 PM, (19) RE: double reverse point not working, goonybird, Jun-27-04, 02:13 PM, (20)

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Hello gooneybirdIs the train long enough that there is a switch between the front and rear of your train when you pass the DRP?If so check this link, http://www.railpage.org.au/steam4me/trainsim/tutorials/AI_otake.htmlThe info here was put together by Greg Coote, lots of good info at this link; enough that you might be able to solve your problem.GaryG

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Hi GaryG,No, no switch is under any part of my train when I pass either reversal point of the DRP.My hunch is that the lead point is still too close to the signal ahead, and that I ought to open the custom route in RE to suss out the actual distance between the signal and its red pyramid, for I sense that the distance between these two (RE) components is what's obliging me to try cutting even more distance between the lead DRP point and the signal.Thank you for the link, that's where I learnt about DRPs back in the Fall/Autumn.Cheers,
goonybird

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Hmm, the distance between the signal and its red pyramid as viewed in the RE seems to be regular. I think I'd better review the tip sheet you hyperlinked for me.I've been sensing (for more than a year now) that a train needs at least twice its length behind it as far as clearance for it goes in order to successfully activate/trigger a reversal point. By clearance I mean that neither a switch nor a crossover factor into the trackwork behind the train that must reverse.I find myself in the RE more often than the AE, so my recollections of what I've learnt what to do and what to avoid can become hazy after relatively long spells away from the AE.Cheers,
goonybird

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Your senses of off. All you need it the distence between the last car of the train and the trigger point for the switch, I try to give it at least 10 feet or so from the switch dot in the path editor. Works for me and you are not running a train waaaayyyy down the tracks to reverse into a siding or whatnot. And you can have another switch between the train and the switch you want to reverse into.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
It's fun being CRAZY!!!!!
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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Well, I'm starting to become right jealous from reading everybody's posts that seem to show no indication of their needing such extra clearance in order to reverse. There happens to be about 70 feet of clearance between the tail end of my last car and the trigger point to a switch behind it, all when the lead edge to my forwardmost car hits the leading point to my DRP.This kind of reversal scenario happened even before I assigned values several months ago to my then-empty 'ClearanceDist' parameters to the switches in my Global tsection.dat file. Besides, the above-mentioned switch diverges away from my last car, not toward it (the ClearanceDist parameter kicks in beyond a divergence, i.e., not leading up to one).I've yet to review the hyperlinked tutorial, there must be something I'm missing -- I dunno.Cheers,
goonybird

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Hi goonybirdCould the 'ClearanceDist' actually be your current problem? - I've never looked at (or heard of) or adjusted/changed that parameter.GaryG

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Hi GaryG,No, for that's what I've alluded to by my outlining the timing of when I populated those empty values in my response above.Cheers,
goonybird

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-22-04 AT 00:23 AM (EST)

HiI was just thinking that perhaps your earlier RP problems might have been caused by something different than your current problem. I read what you said between the lines.You said, "There happens to be about 70 feet of clearance between the tail end of my last car and the trigger point to a switch behind it, all when the lead edge to my forwardmost car hits the leading point to my DRP.". A sketch or screen capture might help us to visualize what you're doing. Perhaps one with the path editor open so we can see the RPs and another in VCR mode so we can see the train at the same location.GaryG

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>A sketch or screen
>capture might help us to visualize what you're doing. Give me a couple of days or so to post one, my MSTS is on another computer that I don't link to the internet, and this computer that I'm responding to you from is made by Apple. I need to buy myself a re-recordable CD.Cheers,
goonybird

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Hi GaryG,Alright, here's the low-down of what the following four shots illustrate that the VCR shows. The green-highlighted track is the player's path. The player exits the express track (which is the track immediately below and to the right of the displayed player path) to take the local one equipped with the platform that it is to call at; a following express train successfully overtakes the station-calling player train; out of view above and to the right of each shot, the local track ends by merging into the express track.1) Player has settled over the lead point of the DRP. Thereafter, it moves back a couple of millimetres before advancing to shot #2.2) Player's way of calling at the station -- its first car should be centred over the (upper) platform deliminator, but the VCR never shows its doing so.3) Player waiting at and for signal to be promoted.4) Some AI's way of calling at the station, the way a station-calling train ought to be shown by the VCR. I cannot remember if this AI is the one immediately preceding the player or some other AI calling even earlier.Any gives? Thanking you in advance,
goonybird

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Hi GBIt looks like it "should" be working without trouble. My guess is that after you pass the DRPs and the routing gets extended as far as it can, one of your AIs is possibly blocking your route extension temporarily. Once that AI clears then your route extension should get continued. If this were the case, you would eventually get a Green but you aren't. My guess is that one of your AI trains is managing to change a switch that was already set for you; if this happens, it won't get set for you again, thus the "permanent" Red.I have found on the KHPass2 route that a stuck signal in VCR mode will also be stuck in play mode almost 100% of the time.All I can think is to take a guess at which AI might be causing problems and do a timing adjustment for it - I add "n" hours to the AI start time which effectively takes it out of the picture temporarily without needing to delete it. Try this with different AIs until your signal starts behaving. You should then have an idea of what AI path is messing you up and perhaps find a workaround.That's all I can suggest. It does appear you're perhaps pushing MSTS beyond its capabilities, if so, you're going to need to find your way to try to make it work. To get KHPass2 to behave properly I've had to come up with a signalling rewrite along with a new signal type and Route modifications as well. This unofficial route patch will be released sometime before the end of the month.GaryG

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-04 AT 01:30 AM (EST)

Hi GaryG,The route's in fact somebody else's, and there's been no further patch on it for the past 15 months. I can assure you that there's nothing extraordinary about the activity that would cause the sim to be pushed beyond some limit. There's some conflict going on, and I now suspect that it's the mirroring of the traffic pattern (file) by the activity file, so I'll first try disassociating the former from the latter, computing-and-saving, and reassigning its traffic pattern. If this doesn't work, then I'll try sorting the order of the AI declarations in the traffic pattern to match their timings at being spawned. I don't think there'd be any need to yet create another path, but would do so if the neither of the two former corrective measure works.As far as any possible clue goes coming from the VCR, I reckon it's the fact that it doesn't show the forwardmost car being centred on the lead platform deliminator when it calls at the station. Gentle reminders: the signal yields/is promoted in the VCR; (the track monitor shows) I'm dragging and dragging the lead point upon driving right on over it.I'll let you know what'll have happened.Cheers again,
goonybird

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-04 AT 02:46 AM (EST)

HiIf you're "dragging" the RP in the F4 helper, it's definitely failed for some unknown reason.One thought, this is a double ended passenger train. Is the starting first car the car that is over the RP? Or have you now reversed the train and "driving" it from what was originally the end of the train?If the train is actually running in reverse, I've never tried DRPs in this mode.GaryG

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>file, so I'll first try disassociating the former from the
>latter, computing-and-saving, and reassigning its traffic
>pattern.
>goonybird Since you just added this bit of information, out of curiosity .. have you tried deleting the .asv file and simply saving rather than computing-and-saving. I've had so many problems crop up in the past with activities in the 'computing-and-saving' mode, that I started following kevins (I think) advice and it has taken care of a greater majority of them. Doesn't really seem to add much to the loading time either. Might be worth a tryRobertR .. ADF-M&RM at http://www.adfrr.com

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Good point Robert,If a Compute and Save (creating the .asv file) has ever been done, a plain old Save will not update the .asv file. When we start an activity, if a .asv file is found it will be loaded even if a later .act file exists.Because of this "feature", I stopped using the Compute and Save option a long time ago (like never any more). If I do create a .asv file by accident, I manually delete it and save a lot of head-scratching later.GaryG

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never used Compute and Save - didn't see the point of it.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Cry havoc and Let slip the dogs of war.
It's fun being CRAZY!!!!!
Lone Wolf Activities Forum and Activity Packs are on www.3DTrains.com

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Whoa! I was in the midst of replying GaryG when I now notice all these new messages.Darn it and no, RobertR -- thank you for reminding me! because I was about to reply GaryG that I performed all three corrective measures, and still nothing worked. I'll delete it, and then compute-and-save it. Your point about that ASV file is indeed valid, for that's what I've always found.I've a couple of ideas to share, but your reminder's worth giving priority.Back in one hour's time (I hope!).Cheers,
goonybird

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Hi you two,I've played the activity from now having both deleted and regenerated the ASV file, and there's still no give.I also recalculated the schedule to all the AIs before trying the first of my corrective measures, being both disassociating and reassigning the traffic pattern to the activity file.Upon fully chrono sorting the traffic pattern yet before reviewing the display by the VCR, this altogether being my second corrective measure, I dehighlighted the checked-off boxes to the Calc column of the first-listed AI, recalculated it, computed-and-saved, closed the editors and tools, re-opened up the activity, and checked a few of the remaining-listed AIs to confirm that their corresponding boxes had also been dehighlighted (some trick I'd taught myself some time ago). But the VCR showed the forwardmost care of the player train's way of calling at the station as being a little closer to the upper platform deliminator compared to the distance that I related earlier here in this thread.There's some clue as to why the VCR doesn't show that forwardmost car as being fully centred over the deliminator. It would appear that that path node/point is somehow in conflict, and thus preventing the leading edge of the DRP from actually being overcome when driving the train. As I think about it, I think I'd better disassociate the friggin player train from the activity -- or recreate the player service, i.e., new player service file.I do remember from trying out DRPs several months ago that the placement of either the player path's or any AI's DRPs cannot be shared with the -- categorically-speaking -- counterpart. My screenshots above show the local track where my player's DRPs straddle an AI's path. So, just before starting out this reply here, I double-checked the player-drivability of the only other path that shares the local track where the DRPs are placed, and that player-drivable checkbox is not checked off. Does anybody reckon activating it might overcome this friggin' glitch I'm now becoming bored by?Sorry, GaryG, but I still haven't reviewed that link you threw me earlier. And, no, the screenshots do not show the player train travelling in a reversed direction. My forwardmost car drives fine what with its functioning cab view. (However, I'm going to quickly post you another thread showing a couple of screenshots of what happens in activity mode when I have an AI draw upon a consist that I made out of a push-pull download -- the glitch hasn't compelled me to correct it yet.)Happy St-Jean-Baptiste Day, everybody. I must soon go and celebrate this national public holiday of Quebec's, for I'm already late meeting up with friends. I'll be back tomorrow.Cheers,
goonybird

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-04 AT 05:28 PM (EST)

Hi GBWhy not just delete the .asv file and forget about the Compile and Save option, just save and update the .act file.I never use that option any more and what if the .asv compiler has a problem defining exact locations. You're about the only one I've heard of using it (.asv) and you're also the only one consistently having DRP problems. You're adding one more step in the way MSTS can screw you up.You can easily prove if this is the problem... It's in your hands.GaryG

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Hi,I beg your pardon, I had read RobertR's message too fast -- I mistook that he was reminding me to regenerate the ASV file when all of you were suggesting I do away with it altogether. (I tried comparing an activity with and without an ASV file back in the winter, and the only difference I could tell with the activity was that my FPS rate was less without the ASV file than when it had it.)I ridded the activity of the ASV file. I disassociated the traffic file from the activty, reassigned it, and recalculated all its schedules. And before altogether simply saving the activity, I gave it a new player service with a new player path. But I still get the same outcomes, being the VCR showing the player successfully negotiating the DRP and subsequently following the overtaking express, except for the forwardmost car not centering over the leading platform deliminator; I drag and drag the leading point of the DRP when driving it. I recategorized the traffic of the AI sharing the track where the DRPs placed to also be player-drivable.So, I guess I must have a conflict somewhere in my MSTS, because my DRPs work providing that the section of track where the pair of points is placed is at least twice the length of the (any) train, and that no other path shares the tracking where the DRPs are laid.Does anybody know if it's possible to install a second copy of MSTS onto a computer?Cheers,
goonybird

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