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woody (49 posts)
Jul-14-01, 11:02 PM (EST) "Opposing locomotives" Hey folks,I've been busy creating a very detailed activity but I keep having problems with opposing consists. It seems that whenever an opposing train has the right of way it stops just ahead of the switch and what I end up with is a stalemate in movement for both my train and the AI train.Here's a picture. This shot was take in Conkelly. The train on the left is my train. the train on the right is the AI train.
My train gets to the signal and stops. About one minute later, the AI train pulls up and stops at it'ssignaleven though it's path is routed to the bottom track after going through the switch. Also, all of the trains stop or will not begin movement on their paths until after my train has passed.
Can someone PLEASE help me with this? I don't see anything in the help files dealing with opposing consists in the activity editor. Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Opposing locomotives JMSteven_W98 Jul-15-01 1 RE: Opposing locomotives woody Jul-15-01 2 RE: Opposing locomotives wheelow Aug-09-01 14 RE: Opposing locomotives SuperDave Jul-15-01 3 RE: Opposing locomotives Hobart Jul-15-01 4 RE: Opposing locomotives woody Jul-15-01 5 RE: Opposing locomotives woody Jul-16-01 6 RE: Opposing locomotives flarrfan Jul-16-01 7 RE: Opposing locomotives pinebaron Jul-16-01 8 RE: Opposing locomotives woody Jul-16-01 9 RE: Opposing locomotives Old_Man Jul-24-01 10 RE: Opposing locomotives patm41 Aug-12-01 16 RE: Opposing locomotives djaquay Aug-15-01 17 RE: Opposing locomotives KingJPW Jul-27-01 11 RE: Opposing locomotives RGade Jul-28-01 12 RE: Opposing locomotives Signalman Aug-08-01 13 RE: Opposing locomotives Richard Aug-09-01 15

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JMSteven_W98 (284 posts)
Jul-15-01, 00:57 AM (EST) 1. "RE: Opposing locomotives" It's been my experience in the last four months that the game will not allow you to create anything that will cause a train wreck.That's essentially what is happening behind the scenes when you use the Activity Editor to "Verify Starting State". The software is looking for potential crashes.It will allow you to crash your own train, as long as no AI train is involved.Jim Steven, MCSE
Sr Microsoft Windows Application Developer Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
woody (49 posts)
Jul-15-01, 04:09 AM (EST) 2. "RE: Opposing locomotives" LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-01 AT 04:11 AM (EST)Hmm, I actually had a crash with two AI trains trying to figure this out. One head on and the other was when I was crossing over on another line the AI train pulled up into the wait position and clipped my train in the side about 12 cars back as my train was going through the switch.What really gets me is that even though the path is clearly marked for the AI train to go through the switch and take the bottom track in the picture above it just slows to a stop and waits. Even though my engine is waiting at a red light.Seems to me that a red signal is red on both sides here. What a joke. i sure hope microsoft gets these problems resolved in TS2 cause if not Iain't buying it!TRAINZ..........TRAINZ.......very soon! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
wheelow (8 posts)
Aug-09-01, 03:18 PM (EST) 14. "RE: Opposing locomotives" About crashes. I've been all out rammed by an AI train. It was an activity I had made from a tutorial, I was setting out cars on a siding, and a local switcher was doing work in the area. I ended up in his path, trying to reverse back to the rest of my train, and leave the area, however, the AI train was totally coming toward me, at a very fast rate. I threw my two dash 9's in full reverse, trying to get out of his way, I ended up jumping the tracks from my rate of speed, as the end of his train plowed into the front of my dash 9, sending his consist all over the place. Quite a scene, I took screen shots of it, but I believe they were deleted when I had to reinstall the game on a later date. But yes, you can have head-ons with AI traffic, no doubt about that.Laters
-Josh Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
SuperDave (21 posts)
Jul-15-01, 12:30 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Opposing locomotives" Hi Woody,I'm also creating an activity which involves opposing trains and "think" you may just need to adjust timing of the AI train or the stop point of your train. Like you mentioned to Jim, I also have had "close encounters of the head-on kind" with my AI trains.You may want to try having the AI train depart it's start point a little earlier (so it's in the "block" before your train gets there); or, stop your train a little farther back from the switch. You may also try backing your train up and seeing when (or if) the AI train proceeds. I'm not sure how the signal or control "blocks" are defined, but the AI train thinks you're in a block it's about to occupy - therefore it stops at the signal.On my activity, I'm doing some brief switching in Whitefish then head out (using the right-hand rule) towards Columbia Falls. I have an AI train coming into Whitefish at about the same time I'm departing (based upon how fast I do my yard work). Now, if I finish quickly and beat the inbound, I can head out of Whitefish (on my path) and take the crossover. The AI train will obey the signal and stop. Once I've cleared the track, the AI train proceeds. However, if I'm slow to depart, the AI train will take priority and I have to wait for it to pass before continuing out the yard and through the crossover.My point -- there must be some "mystical" point where my (and your) trains must be to determine if the AI train will stop or proceed through it's signals. Mine is much less (or no) problem because I can proceed before or after the AI train. Yours on the otherhand results in a "California Gridlock". If you can back your train and the AI proceeds, you'll have some idea as to where you must stop your train to prevent the signal lockup.Oh, another interesting point I encountered. If my AI train beats me to the junction and DOES proceed, if I try to race ahead to cross in front of it, the crossover switches will remain aligned for the AI train (not my defined path); which puts me on a "head-on" course and an unwanted train wreck.Also, something you didn't mention. Are the signal arrangements in your activity the original MSTS setup; or, did you modify the signal positions? If you made modifications, then that could also be a source of the problem.Hope this helps a little ... Dave Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hobart (10 posts)
Jul-15-01, 04:46 PM (EST) 4. "RE: Opposing locomotives" This is the same problem I've been having. I want the train
I'm driving to wait for an opposing train to take the siding,
the opposing train pulls up to his signal and stops. The reason
He stops is because his switch is'nt lined up. If you put your
train in reverse and back up a little bit the switch will line
up and he takes the siding. I've tried every thing else I can
think of, but this is the only thing that's worked so far. Hope
it helps. Regards Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
woody (49 posts)
Jul-15-01, 11:54 PM (EST) 5. "RE: Opposing locomotives" Fantastic, I'll give it a try. I guess I may have assumed that these problems were everywhere on the route. The reason I thought this was that as my train was coming out of Kalispell a GP38 local switcher in Columbia Falls was waiting at a switch for me to pass. Well, my train was 10 miles away in Kalispell! 30 minutes later as my trainpassedthe switch the switcher resumed it's path. I wonder if the order in which you place the player services and AI services comes into play here? I'll give this a try and see how it works. It sure sounds like a fix to me. Thanks Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
woody (49 posts)
Jul-16-01, 02:13 AM (EST) 6. "RE: Opposing locomotives" LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-01 AT 02:27 AM (EST)Well, After tinkering with the editor and trying all of the above stated remedies it still doesn't work. This is complete and utter BS. Why in the hell would a company tout that "the editing tools required for route and activity construction will be included with the game" when this horseshit doesn't work. I've spent a total of 40 hours on this route trying to appease the Activity Editor and have come to the conclusion that the user controlled train cannot get a red signal and stop and expect the opposing AI train to take a siding around the users train. Not only that, if there are any AI trains on the same main line heading in different directions one of them is going to stop even though it has a switch around right of way and lock up movement on in the activity. I'm no Phuccin dummy! I've been fooling with PC and software professionally for 10 years. WHY WHY WHY do they pump crap out like this to the masses? Screw it! It ain't worth my time.I'm NEVER going to buy another Simulator from you ever again. This is completely and utterly unacceptable.
I have purchased the following products from you over the past ten years:FS4
FS5
FS95
FS98
FS2000 Pro
CS1
CS2
MSTS
MS Office 95
MS Office97
MS Office 2000 Pro
Dos-3.0
Dos 3.22
Win 3.1
Win 3.11
Win 95A
MS Plus
Win95B
Win95C
Win98
Win98SE
WinMe
Win2000ProI WILL NEVER EVER BUY YOUR CRAP AGAIN! I WILL PIRATE IT FIRST AND IF IT FRICKIN WORKS I MIGHT KEEP IT ON MY HARD DRIVE BUT I WILL NEVER BUY IT! EVER! JERKSLinux here I come! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
flarrfan (244 posts)
Jul-16-01, 06:59 AM (EST) 7. "RE: Opposing locomotives" I have personally used a downloaded activity in which my train stopped at a red board at the end of double track and waited almost 20 minutes for an opposing train to show, when it did, the AI train took the diverging route past me on the siding and continued, so I know it can be done. The problem you are having is essentially a combination of the timing of your AI train and the AU (for Artificially Unintelligent) dispatcher program built into the sim. Pending comments from others, I cannot exclude the possibility that there are particular bugs in particular places, but I have designed four long haul activities with lots of AI traffic and have never experienced this problem. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
pinebaron (6 posts)
Jul-16-01, 04:10 PM (EST) 8. "RE: Opposing locomotives" HiMy limited experience is that where ever a conflict occurs between the player train and an AI train, the AI train will stop, at a signal or switch,until the programmed route of the player train clears the track in dispute. The situation posed
is a stand-off and neither can move. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
woody (49 posts)
Jul-16-01, 11:52 PM (EST) 9. "RE: Opposing locomotives" You are correct. But in reality there should be no conflict because I've predefined the route of the AI train to go around mine.Example - I have my train pull thirty or forty feet away from a switch and stop. The AI train that is behind me on the same line goes through a light and comes up behind me. At this point I have it routed to take the switch behind me and pull up along side of my loco as I wait for a 133 car train to go by that is passing on my right.When I test the activity the train pulls up behind me and stops at he switch instead of going around me. This really sucks. This is not an editor that can be used to create realistic scenarios. What a shame. On another note, I'm glad to see that some folks are starting to get leary about purchasing this product. Why should they? It doesn't work as advertised. I've been in the computer industry for quite some time now and I truly believe that this industry, especially the software industry, is plagued with FALSE ADVERTISEMENT and our government has done nothing about it. I'm tired of buying software that works half way because some bean counting motherphucker says that it has to ship by a certain date even though he knows damnn well that it isn't finished!When I go to the software store to buy a product I don't tell the girl behind the counter, "Hey, I'm gonna pay half now and when I get the rest of the money I will give it to you." No, we pay FULL price and get Half of a product. I'm so mad right now I'm gonna send this thread directly to KUJU and Microsuck! Just tonight when I select the EDIT button for the AI service nothing happens. So now I can't even get into the program deep enough to fix the train problems. What? do I have to reinstall the whole friggin' game again! Jeez. This is bad. This is really bad! What a joke! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Old_Man (1 posts)
Jul-24-01, 08:58 PM (EST) 10. "RE: Opposing locomotives" I have been trying to get some logic out of this piece of garbage for over 3 days now and have came to the conclusion that it simply cannot be done.
Totally unpredictable results that defy explanation. AI trains that stop with 60 miles of 2 track unoccupied main in front of em.
Being held by a block with the nearest opposing train 50 friggin miles away etc etc.
This is supposed to be patterned after the BNSF but resembles the UP of a few years ago.That is just my critique of the "tools and editors" the rest of the crap is worse.....Microshit sez that they are not responsible but the sonofabitches sure took my money for the shitware tho. Am about to delete the crap off my system and throw the 2 disks in the garbage where they belong. $50 down the tube but a lesson learned.. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
patm41 (30 posts)
Aug-12-01, 01:47 AM (EST) 16. "RE: Opposing locomotives" hope ya have fun finding Linux games to play ...I been looking for a year and there are none worth havin ... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
djaquay (39 posts)
Aug-15-01, 12:43 PM (EST) 17. "RE: Opposing locomotives" Hmmm, LinCity, FreeCiv and FreeCraft come to mind, not to mention Crafty and GNUChess...Dave Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
KingJPW (237 posts)
Jul-27-01, 02:32 PM (EST) 11. "RE: Opposing locomotives" KingJPW's Principles for Activity Design:1) AI trains suck, are more effort than they are worth, and are unnecesary to the enjoyment of the game.
2) AI trains will not be satisfied until they END your activity.
3) If you must have AI trains, put them on a path that you NEVER plan to ride on.
4) Focus on placing 'Loose COnsists' on your layout instead of AI Trains. (If you drive past them
real fast they sorta look like they're moving!)
5) Use 'MSTS Buddy' to randomize the loose consists in your activity (Version 1.3 coming soon...)KingJPW Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
RGade (1 posts)
Jul-28-01, 00:08 AM (EST) 12. "RE: Opposing locomotives" I think a lot of this argument about it being a stupid AI is without merit. The problem with this situation is not that the AI is doing the improper thing, but that the signals are setup incorrectly! The red block for the train coming from the east contains everything in it's possible path UNTIL another signal light which faces the same direction. Note that the light that the user train is stopped at faces ONLY in it's direction - the user train is in fact in the AI train's destination block at this time. The track designer here has created a black hole where all signals enter, but no signals leave.The proper signal arrangement would have double-faced signals at the points of the switch. The south path would then give a green light, the north path a red and the computer would be facing a yellow. However, since the north path is part of the block, he gets a red instead. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Signalman (8 posts)
Aug-08-01, 10:59 PM (EST) 13. "RE: Opposing locomotives" At an end of siding which is what this is the signals are not back to back on the same mast. You would have a one signal for each track and the signal heading into the two tracks would have two heads, upper for straight track and lower head for the siding. What is in that layout is correct, only thing I would not know is about the second head for the AI train to enter the siding, since I have not tried to create an activity yet. If there is no second head, the AI train would not have any type of signal to enter the siding even though the switch is lined up.
Gordy Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Richard (40 posts)
Aug-09-01, 10:52 PM (EST) 15. "RE: Opposing locomotives" This may sound silly, but normal running is right hand running. Try putting your train on the other track and let the AI train run the throught route and see what happens Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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