Passing paths and the optional paths box

One of the things I think I might have figured out is that when you do a passing section in a path you need to check the optional paths box. This way if the path for both trains is, for example the main track, the second train to the siding will take it. When KHP first came out there were quite a few standoffs. When I opened the AE to look at the paths I noticed that these were happening where passing paths had been set up. I checked the optional paths box and the standoffs went away. This is not documented in any of the tech docs, Surprise-surprise. I have been experimenting with this I and the more I do the more I am convinced that I am right. The optional paths will not work if the passing point is not put into the path, i.e. both paths are on the main track and none in the siding.Ideas?Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, oldrailfan, Sep-15-02, 01:35 AM, (1) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, oldrailfan, Sep-15-02, 01:37 AM, (2) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, kevarc, Sep-15-02, 11:15 AM, (3) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, oldrailfan, Sep-15-02, 09:41 PM, (4) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, kevarc, Sep-15-02, 09:57 PM, (5) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, Mark_Blum, Sep-17-02, 04:43 PM, (6) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, oldrailfan, Sep-22-02, 08:17 AM, (7) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, punkrockjoe, Sep-26-02, 09:14 AM, (8) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, kevarc, Sep-26-02, 09:20 AM, (9) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, oldrailfan, Oct-27-02, 00:12 AM, (10) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, Swisskid706, Oct-31-02, 03:05 PM, (11) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, kevarc, Oct-31-02, 03:20 PM, (12) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, Swisskid706, Oct-31-02, 04:06 PM, (13) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, kevarc, Oct-31-02, 04:11 PM, (14) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, oldrailfan, Oct-31-02, 05:21 PM, (15) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, kevarc, Oct-31-02, 05:36 PM, (16) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, jkcooney, Oct-31-02, 06:08 PM, (17) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, seern, Oct-31-02, 10:08 PM, (18) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, GaryG, Nov-04-02, 08:24 PM, (24) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, Mark1616, Nov-01-02, 07:46 AM, (19) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, kevarc, Nov-01-02, 09:07 AM, (20) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, seern, Nov-01-02, 05:39 PM, (21) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, westerngy, Nov-03-02, 05:13 PM, (22) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, seern, Nov-03-02, 11:29 PM, (23) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, westerngy, Nov-14-02, 04:37 PM, (25) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, cconfair, Nov-14-02, 08:43 PM, (26) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, kevarc, Nov-14-02, 09:36 PM, (27) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, oldrailfan, Nov-15-02, 02:58 AM, (28) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, kevarc, Nov-15-02, 08:56 AM, (29) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, oldrailfan, Nov-18-02, 01:00 AM, (30) RE: Passing paths and the optional paths box, cconfair, Nov-18-02, 09:08 PM, (31)

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Kevin,
THanks! I've been having standoff problems also, and was getting the AI to start by stopping and backing down. Not very prototypical, also wastes timetable. Optional Paths worked for me too.
JOhn

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.

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Addendum to Message 1
I notice, though, that each train takes the path I assigned to it, whether or not the other train is "in."

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.

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Run the paths on the same track. If you put one path in the siding it will always take the siding.Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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You just answered one question I was about to ask.
Do I need to mark the player train for passing point and optional path, the AI train, or both? I've been marking both and it seems to work best.

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.

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I would do both.Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-02 AT 04:44 PM (EDT)

Hi Kevin:For what it's worth, I think you are correct. I created a test route for signals, and used it to create a meet, using your optional path section idea - it worked. A couple additional findings:1 - the player train did not need optional path sections. I DID designate the passing path when building it's path.
2 - the AI train DID need the optional path sections. I did NOT designate the passing path when building its path.When they met, I held the main and the AI train took the siding. If I was quick, we had a rolling meet. If not, when I cleared the trailing turnout, it resumed from a standstill. It had to yield to my train, and I kept the main line - I had no option.The way I had it set up, with no optional path for me (the player train), the dispatcher had to keep me in the mainline. I haven't tested all options. It is logical as you report, that if we both had optional paths, the first one to reach the double track would get to keep the main line, forcing the other into the siding.This has pretty exciting implications! If designing a local, you may be able to give yourself a low priority and be forced into the hole. If you're taking a highball freight or passenger, you always get the main, forcing others into the hole.I don't follow the activity forum much, because I'm really deep into creating my Southern Railway route through N Georgia and S Carolina, so I don't recall much of the detail from past discussions about regulating AI trains and passing. It really looks like you've got an important discovery here!Before I did it your way, the AI train just sat, stuck on the main, and we wound up with a standoff.I'm about to leave town for a few days and will play with it more when I return.THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!Mark
A Southern Railway Fan

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For some reason, I'm still banging heads, but as long as I get there first, then back down a little, the AI will come in on the other track. If the AI gets there first, it takes the main, then HAL the dispatcher wont let me have the siding, even though I ran both down the main, designated both Player and AI as path optional, and also marked both for passing path.
I think I'll try Mark's way next, and see how it works. I just wish I had bigger consecutive blocks of time to play around. (Me, my time, not MSTS time)
JOhn

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.

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When I check the box for an optional track section do I do that for the whole passing section or just the first one. and is there any way to make my train wait at a red signal for an AI train to pass. Or does the AI train have to get to the double track section firts?

Keep your wheels on the track.
Joe Demars.

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It applies to the entire path, not just the one.Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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Finally got a chance to sit down and really get into the passing paths. Here is what I've found:
1) I have to designate the passing path on my player consist first.
2) Both the player and the AI paths have to go past the first switch beyond the passing siding.
3) Start time for the AI is critical. If I get two trains banging heads, I can go into the Activity Editor and adjust the traffic's start time by a minute or two (in either direction!) and they'll pass.
4) If I designate neither train as path optional, or if I designate both trains optional, HAL has some internal coin tosser to determine who stays on the main and who takes the siding - no apparent rhyme or reason. If only one train is designated optional, it takes the siding.

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.

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you guys are always talking about passing path and optional path box. there are several questions about that:
1. i run in front of an AI train. we get to a doubletrack section where i fit in and i want the AI to pass me. which train is to have a passing path and which track (main or siding) has to be the passing path?
2. what do i do if the optional path box can't be checked?thanks for help.

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As far as I and other folks working on activities it is next to impossible to get an AI train to pass you. There is no way to set train priorities. To get the optional path box you must first click on highlight path.Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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even a passenger train that runs faster won't pass a freight on MP?

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yepKevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-02 AT 05:23 PM (EST)

Yep, and it can be a pain. Passing paths only seem to be intended for opposite directions.
Kevin, I wonder if backing into a spur would clear the main for a follower. Gonna try that sometime.

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.

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Could be.Another thing, I think that if both paths are on the main the first train holds the main. And if the path is through the siding the first holds the siding, going to have to check that out tonight
Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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It seems to work "sometimes". I have encountered situtations where the approaching train stops at the signal regardless of whether I am blocking the passing siding or not. I have found that placing the loco in reverse and backing into a siding or away from the approaching train sometimes "releases" the AI train and allows it to proceed. This is a very hit or miss proposition though.
J. Cooney

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Working with overtaking trains passing you is a large pain with the current MSTS. This is something that many of us have played around with. There is a theory that the use of reversing points helps it happen. Also the need for the player train to do a reverse move to clear the signal at the end of the siding. I know that Gary G. has gotten it to work, for I have seen his screen shots. Me, never could get the overtaking train to go by, no matter how I tried things. I have resorted to trickery in my activities to make the player think that they were passed, even when it really didn't work. Besides making MSTS work, activities are theatre and we the designers are the directors/producers.

Sharon Evans
Glen Allen, Virginia
Activities are what makes MSTS run.

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Hi seernWell, yes I did get a train to pass (used a reverse point) BUT I
never did get a Green signal to follow.There is one activity where I actually had an Amtrak stop beside
me waiting to cross to my track (I had the green). I reversed
and moved back a bit, the signal dropped, Amtrak crossed to my track
and proceeded. I did eventually get a Green to proceed so this one
time a passing actually almost occurred unaided.This Activity was FFan Columbia Falls Local Pt.2, not sure where
I found it.GaryG

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Does the "expected player performance" have anything to do with priority?
Mark

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Not really. This a measure against some unknown standard.Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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Expected player performance at times seems to affect the speed of AI trains in the activity. I sometimes will put the value at 100% for fast intermodial trains, but cut it back to 70% for slow drag feights.

Sharon Evans
Glen Allen, Virginia
Activities are what makes MSTS run.

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Sharon,here's a question for you.Why will the east signal at Banff not go green for an AI after the player has entered the siding.The start of this is the player train arrives Banff and the opposing passenger train arrives 12mins. later ....stops at station then continues on but the east signal won't give it a clear it stays RED.Just Rollin Down The Tracks Dale

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Dale, In my workings with the the AE, I have found that this problem is usually caused by the order of the start/end circles on the route itself. My memory is fuzy, but I think that the end point of the east bound AI train must by further from the east end of the route then the start point of the player train. Sorry or could be the other way around. I always have to play with this to get it right. This is one place that the VCR comes in handy. Play with the positioning of these start/end circle, then run the VCR to see what works.

Sharon Evans
Glen Allen, Virginia
Activities are what makes MSTS run.

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Hi Sharon,I left the KHPass activity alone for awhile like standing in the corner when you've been bad.
I have the player starting from before the end point and just before the first signal and the AI path ends at end of line behind me.From what I see the AI "via East" has the east signal at Banff and the two signals ahead of it they show proceed but the east sig is stuck on RED.Just Rollin Down The Tracks Dale

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I have read every posting in this forum and still cannot program my activity to avoid standoffs. I am trying to experiment by changing my selections of passing paths, but I can never get the "remove passing path" command to become active; it is always grayed out. How do I activate the remove command? Where on the path do I need to click?

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That is something I would love to know also, I think it is a prgramming bug that needs to be fixed. I just usually change the endpoint getting rid of them and then change it back and redo the path. It takes time.Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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Jeepers Kevin,
Look at the history on this topic - we've been at this for about 2 1/2 months and are still kicking the ball back-and-forth without a touchdown. Obviously, this is something the KooJoos are going to have to look into. How much do you want to bet there's no change on MSTS2?

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.

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A little documentation would have been nice. Kevin Arceneaux
It is time for Amtrak to become a fallen flag!

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And a little consistancy on how the program responds to the input would be nice also. I have had the experience of something working just fine one time, but then, without changing anything, I butt heads the next time. AARRGH!

JOhn
Oldrailfan
Railfan means anything on rails! Trains Trolleys Rollercoasters - you name it.

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I'm at least glad to see that I am not the only one struggling with this program.You previously mentioned MSTS2....is it due to be out soon? It certainly can't be any more frustrating than version 1.

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