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Routes vs Activities

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Member since Aug-1-02 · 2311 posts

Figuring I wanted to learn Activity creating eventually... I thought it would be neat to take a short break from route building and put together a quick activity w/AI traffic for Marias Pass 3. Figured this would acquaint me with the AE portion of the MSTS experience.As a route builder, if you have NOT got a working experience with AE, I highly suggest you do so. You are in for a rude awakening about what will/will-not work with AI trains/etc. To wit: 1. Some prototypical track arrangements will NOT work with AI traffic. Quickest example is the typical "ladder" arrangement that the prototype uses to fan out into a series of tracks. Reason that won't work is because the AI path will follow the straight side of the switch REGARDLESS. Anywhere the route logic requires the path to negotiate the diverging route to rejoin the main, and the AI path will not reconnect. The AI path MUST be "forced" to rejoin the main by a trailing point switches. This ONE item alone means extensive rework for my currently shelved KC&G route.2. Absolute signals MUST be used at critical points. The AI will cruise right on through a permisive with gay abandon. True, head on collisions are fun to watch... but get old when trying to set up an activity.3. The pass track switches must be automatics. In fact, you actually need automatic switches at each important trackage situation where AI traffic is intended. The AI dispatcher will NOT throw a manual switch, thus resulting in stalemates and other "interesting" experiences, to say nothing of how an unwary player can foul the AI traffic paths with an inadervant throw of a switch. Though non-prototypical, for successful AI traffic, the switching areas need to be OFF the mainline and thus OUT of the AI traffic paths.In all, it's been a harsh lesson. BUT, it's been a very enlightening lesson. Eventually, I want my mainline-oriented routes to handle AI traffic, because frankly, a good activity w/AI brings a mainline theme to life.For those of us that love route building, this brings with it a set of circumstances that we will absolutely, positively face and MUST decide: Should I lay the track with prototype fidelity or activity friendliness in mind? I think I will choose the later.This means that my own KC&G is going to have to have some HEAVY revisions. So much so, that it may be in dire straights. What a shame.That's why this post. If you're in the beginning stages of building a route in which you envision AI traffic running up and down the line for the player train to contend with... you'd better learn what that's going to take from the GROUND UP and save yourself some anguish.I should have done this VERY early on in my MSTS experience.Andre "Ever Learning" Ming

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RE: Routes vs Activities, kevarc, May-30-03, 11:04 AM, (1) RE: Routes vs Activities, Coonskin, May-30-03, 05:19 PM, (2) RE: Routes vs Activities, kevarc, May-30-03, 05:23 PM, (3) RE: Routes vs Activities, Coonskin, May-30-03, 05:50 PM, (4) RE: Routes vs Activities, kevarc, Jun-01-03, 10:54 AM, (5) RE: Routes vs Activities, ATF1224, Jun-01-03, 01:49 PM, (6) RE: Routes vs Activities, Coonskin, Jun-01-03, 04:17 PM, (7) RE: Routes vs Activities, robertreedy, Jun-01-03, 04:41 PM, (8)

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Charter Member · 4573 posts

RE: Routes vs Activities

1. Some prototypical track arrangements will NOT work with AI traffic. Quickest example is the typical "ladder" arrangement that the prototype uses to fan out into a series of tracks. Reason that won't work is because the AI path will follow the straight side of the switch REGARDLESS. Anywhere the route logic requires the path to negotiate the diverging route to rejoin the main, and the AI path will not reconnect. The AI path MUST be "forced" to rejoin the main by a trailing point switches. This ONE item alone means extensive rework for my currently shelved KC&G route.This can be overcome with carefull path construction. It is not that big a deal2. Absolute signals MUST be used at critical points. The AI will cruise right on through a permisive with gay abandon. True, head on collisions are fun to watch... but get old when trying to set up an activity.This is a big deal. I have looked at a few routes and dicarded them because of screwed up signalling. This is one thing the playback in the AE can be good for. Also TO MANY signals can casue tons of greif. These need lots of reverse points to be used to work sidings and such. I have started and deleted quite a few activities because of this. You need to ask, is this signal really needed?3. The pass track switches must be automatics. In fact, you actually need automatic switches at each important trackage situation where AI traffic is intended. The AI dispatcher will NOT throw a manual switch, thus resulting in stalemates and other "interesting" experiences, to say nothing of how an unwary player can foul the AI traffic paths with an inadervant throw of a switch. Though non-prototypical, for successful AI traffic, the switching areas need to be OFF the mainline and thus OUT of the AI traffic paths.Not really. Again with carefull path construction and the correct use of passing paths this can be easily over come.Andre - do you have a screenshot from the AE of your route? One with signals? If so email it to me and I'll try to get a look at it over the weekend and maybe come up with a comment or two.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Lone Wolf Activities Forum on www.3DTrains.comRoutes vs Activities – image 1

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Member since Aug-1-02 · 2311 posts

RE: Routes vs Activities

LAST EDITED ON May-30-03 AT 05:21 PM (EDT)

Kevarc:Appreciate the kind offer. Alas, signals haven't been placed on my largest, diesel oriented "mainline" route as yet. It uses XTracks, and for now, I've shelved all my XTracks equipped projects and removed the Standardized tsection.dat, and am building routes using only default track and default tsection.dat. I will continue to do so until we all know what MSTS2 is going to do to routes w/add-ons. Thus, no signals to be added to the KC&G/etc.The route I'm learning the "fun" of activity creation is Marias Pass V3. What's aggrevating, is that I HAD a nice traffic flow, making some meets on single track... things looking good. I was poised to top the pass and head east... then I kept on "fixing it" (tweaking meet times/etc) until I broke it... and now I guess I start over. Or at least have some significant path rebuilding to do.My hat it tipped to all successful Activity creators. The AE tools are more fickle and fragile than RE ever thought about being. I'm now of the opinion, that in my learning curve, I should have chosen to learn Activities BEFORE route construction. I now think that only AFTER a route builder truly understands what is needed in AE, can he/she set out to build a nice route with a long hard drive life span. Otherwise, we're setting ourselves up for some AE "gotcha's".Andre

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Charter Member · 4573 posts

RE: Routes vs Activities

Here is an idea. Put signals in, but alpha then so they are invisable. Granted that would force ppl to use the track monitor, but you would get the feel of a dark route.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Lone Wolf Activities Forum on www.3DTrains.comRoutes vs Activities – image 2

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Member since Aug-1-02 · 2311 posts

RE: Routes vs Activities

Alpha's, eh? Novel idea.I've heard of burying them, too.Apparently, there are workarounds to simulate a dark railroad.Well... off to Marias Pass for some more hilarious adventure.Andre

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Charter Member · 4573 posts

RE: Routes vs Activities

One thing I thought of. Do not use cars as scenery objects on tracks that can be used. It sucks to set up an activity only to find you cannot use the tracks.Kevin Arceneaux
DEFAULT IS FOR DUMMIES
Lone Wolf Activities Forum on www.3DTrains.comRoutes vs Activities – image 3

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Member since Aug-1-02 · 2311 posts

RE: Routes vs Activities

You mean "static" i.e. non-operative cars? Or "eye candy" loose consists?As for "static" cars, I do not like the idea of using them on any of my routes, period. I want any/all tracks to be available for use unless temporarily "Out Of Service" within an activity on account of maintenance/repair/etc.Like I've said, it has been quite a learning experience seeing what it takes for successful activity creation. No wonder few do it!!BTW, since my last post, I've discovered yet another way of crashing/corrupting the AE!!Andre

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Charter Member · 827 posts

RE: Routes vs Activities

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kevarc, I solved that problem for one place. I used a 1meter track to lay it all, then took that one track out. It's almost not noticeable except in the AE there is the typical black circle letting a person know.

RobertR .. ADF-M&RM at http://www.adfrr.com

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