GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read

LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-03 AT 09:06 PM (EDT) by Macster (moderator)

I have something to share with you all. I have neglected to share this..and there are some here who already know about this...but for those who do not..I will share.Hank (Signalmaster), who I consider one of my mentors, made me realize, I am not helping anyone here by holding on to this information. Please experts..I value all your hard work, and I know you'll have comment, (at least I hope you will) be gentle..and... here it goes:I have been cheating the system...the MSTS engine, just as others have here. I have passed all safetys to do what I do..I've
played every senario I can think of ...and it still works.
(I'm sure there is much much more I will be testing though)How many times have you exceeded the object count in a tile and lost everything without a back up?How many times do you want to add more scenery or objects..but the 'ol MSTS engine and restrictions won't let you?I want to tell you..I have back to back world files with well over 1.5 MB of data in them.I have upwards to 5000 objects in some of these tiles.
(thus the detail you see in my screen shots)Yes..the FPS take a hit..but the new GF FX video system coming out and a KT-4 MB will walk away with this route.NOW...the experts are cringing saying "your asking for trouble"
Yes and no.Here's what I've found (which I know some of you already know).You can stack a tile in a world file without it crashing and loosing your data...I'm saying bypass the object limit...quantity and quality.You can virtually add as many objects as you want to a tile (to an extent) The key is how much memory you have..it's true!. Example:
I have 512 MB of memory on a 1/3rd full 72 spin HD. I can save object counts up to what that 512 memory chip will allow in it's memory. anything above that on my system..and it won't save right. It may even kick out something in an adjacent world file (the flakey part).I cannot tell you how many times I've had to go into the world file backups just to find a file data line and replace one in a route world file because my ram and MB could not hold and process all the data I had crammed into it. The good news is, it so far only does this in the RE..not in the sim. There is not as much memory needed in the actual simulations as there is needed in the RE. RE loads all resources to build your route, when running the simulation, it only loads what it needs to make what you've programmed in the RE to work.How do I get all those objects into my route without crashing or messing up...that's a very tricky part..for those of you not willing to loose a file and crash the sim 100 times a day until you learn this...don't attemp it. I write this for the free and the brave...(or for me..the ___________..you fill in the blank but be nice!..LOLWhile placing objects, you will hit the max, and the sim will "send, dont send"..this usually means you have hit your limit of something...well no more!BEFORE you save...here's what to do:Open your world folder and find the w.w file for the world file your in adding objects. Not the backup, nor the sound source file..but the actual ".w" file for that area. Open it with "Wordpad". "select all" and "cut"....then save the empty file.NOW...go back to RE and "save". It will save all you added, but not what you just cut.Open the world file back up...now look at it...see all those new entries?Go to the very top of what is saved...remove all the Tr_Worldfile line and lines below:SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0w0t______Tr_Worldfile (
VDbIdCount ( 8 )
ViewDbSphere (
VDbId ( 0 )
Position ( -300.298 183.187 -24.4615 )
Radius ( 1048.46 )
)It's not needed for addons in this file, as far as I can see...the file adjusts itself. (You'll be adding back in the original lines when you past the old file data back in)All your worldfile data should show at the top of the file is this example: )
Static (
UiD ( 11196 )
FileName ( BarFence50m.s )
StaticFlags ( 00040180 )
Position ( -964.866 178.469 -963.512 )
QDirection ( -0.00947503 -0.304177 0.00110528 0.952568 )
VDbId ( 4294967293 )
)
Tr_Watermark ( 10 )
Static (
UiD ( 4715 )
FileName ( LgWpine.s )
StaticFlags ( 00042000 )
Position ( -937.526 167.935 -599.289 )
QDirection ( 0 0 0 1 )
VDbId ( 4294967293 )
)
) (the above is an example only)Now just above the ")" above the very top "Static (" in the opened file, click and paste in your old world file in. Now it looks like this:
)
Static (
UiD ( 10630 )
FileName ( ABSWire1.s )
StaticFlags ( 00040000 )
Position ( -815.884 186.362 -307.116 )
QDirection ( 0.00118469 -0.262929 0.0128136 0.964729 )
VDbId ( 4294967293 )
)
)
)
Static (
UiD ( 11196 )
FileName ( BarFence50m.s )
StaticFlags ( 00040180 )
Position ( -964.866 178.469 -963.512 )
QDirection ( -0.00947503 -0.304177 0.00110528
0.952568 )
VDbId ( 4294967293 )
)
)
OK..now...in the middle of those 2 files is a big bad problem. One syntex error and your out! You must edit the in between the files part to look like this: )
Static (
UiD ( 10630 )
FileName ( ABSWire1.s )
StaticFlags ( 00040000 )
Position ( -815.884 186.362 -307.116 )
QDirection ( 0.00118469 -0.262929 0.0128136 0.964729 )
VDbId ( 4294967293 )
)
Static (
UiD ( 11196 )
FileName ( BarFence50m.s )
StaticFlags ( 00040180 )
Position ( -964.866 178.469 -963.512 )
QDirection ( -0.00947503 -0.304177 0.00110528
0.952568 )
VDbId ( 4294967293 )
)
)(bottom of file, example above for looks only)The 2 offset ")" dictate the end of the file, the closing line if you will. That must be removed from the midle of the file..........VDbId ( 4294967293 )
)
) -equals the end (close) of the file..this must be at the end.
Dynamic track files will look like this: )
Dyntrack (
UiD ( 10100 )
TrackSections (
TrackSection (
SectionCurve ( 0 ) 530 7 0
)
TrackSection (
SectionCurve ( 1 ) 532 -0.1 292
)
TrackSection (
SectionCurve ( 0 ) 534 2 0
)
TrackSection (
SectionCurve ( 1 ) 4294967295 0 0
)
TrackSection (
SectionCurve ( 0 ) 4294967295 0 0
)
)
SectionIdx ( 302 )
Elevation ( -0.00261799 )
CollideFlags ( 551 )
StaticFlags ( 00100000 )
Position ( -951.814 177.467 -545.247 )
QDirection ( -0.00127721 -0.219053 0.000286731 0.975712 )
VDbId ( 4294967294 )
StaticDetailLevel ( 0 )
)
)Close and save this file back to itself (but only after making a backup file of the original file BEFORE you save to it!!! Now close out your RE and go back into it..and MAKE SURE IT'S ALL THERE and no errors then BACK THAT BABY UP!!!(I always keep a backup folder on my desktop to drag and drop-copy the GOOD saved files into, so if I crash one..I can go get it back from that backup)MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL!!!
Get to know your file structure, look at a world file...see how it's laid out? Route builders...create a new one tile big test track and section and add files galore..and play with it, edit it..(you know..by adding staic flags numbers above 10000, you can keep your objects from "blinking" out)...learn it..then go back to your big route and apply what you've learned....You'll be so much happier with your route..AND..it takes on a whole new look. Detail is what makes a route!...Now you CAN make a real looking route.You CAN edit and add to your files.To add more to a tile, do this all the time after your world files get full.
It's the only way to add after the limit is reached.
Don't worry about your frame rates...it takes at least 800KB of raw data in the world file (per se) on average to start a real drop in framerates with a GF3TI500 512mb ram and 1.6 gig processor. (of course your FPS changes are subject to the object files and their sizes..not how big the world file is.) You can place alot of low poly items and still pass the file size and count limit...if you do..do this technique of editing the world file..and you'll still get all you want into the tile..plus your FPS on lo-poly objects won't take such a hit.NOW..the down side:This can become very fustrating, indeed! In fact..I almost quit route building because of the hassels to do this...but once I learned the quirks (and still learning) I know what to expect now...I can almost read my route and tell you what it's gonna do next.ALSO..you run the risk (if you get too many object files on one tile and or if you have limited memory) of losing some of the objects, not only in the file your working on, but even in the world files around the one being worked on. RE is a strange monster when your twisting it's tail like this! BACK UP, BACK UP, BACK UP.I have found this....the better the Mother Board, and the more ram, (more than 512 MB) also the less programs running in the background while in RE..the better you'll have it..RE is MORE of a resourse hog than the actual simulation while running a train.Remember to have plenty of ram, a good video card, a good motherboard, (all graphics optimized)
and you'll pull this off, and create a dandy route...full of exciting suprises with every turn of the camera.Now..folks..you can cut me down..tell me I'm over doing it...even tell me it's old news..but it works..and for those who feel compelled to take on the challenge..HANG ON! Your in for a rough take off..but the flight is great!This is how I build the GM&O route. These things are what I have found. These things are what happens to me. I am not making this up...at all, (for those who doubt) I've been building this route this way for 6 months now, and it still runs..ask Kelley Ellison, in my worst spot on the GM&O ROUTE..Kelley's getting no less than 10 FPS and averaging 18 FPS.Thank you for putting up with my ranting and raving with such a long message..but I felt obligated to you all..many of you are my friends here..and I wanted you all to know so you can build your routes the way YOU want without having to "over limit" your route just to make it work. There's hope..and with the new systems coming out...My memory hog of a route will just be a feather in the breeze. That's it..until someone else posts..I know I've opened the door to all sorts of things..so..I'm ready I hope (sheepishly)..P.

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, rjdiii, Jan-28-03, 05:42 PM, (1) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, xlspecial261, Jan-28-03, 05:52 PM, (2) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, GMOF3A, Jan-28-03, 06:34 PM, (5) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, GMOF3A, Jan-30-03, 03:58 PM, (30) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, smmille1, Jan-28-03, 06:01 PM, (3) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, xlspecial261, Jan-28-03, 06:14 PM, (4) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, smmille1, Jan-28-03, 08:32 PM, (7) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, xlspecial261, Jan-28-03, 08:37 PM, (8) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, GMOF3A, Jan-28-03, 08:40 PM, (9) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, smmille1, Jan-28-03, 08:48 PM, (10) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, xlspecial261, Jan-28-03, 08:53 PM, (11) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, mark_blum, Jan-28-03, 08:30 PM, (6) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, DKlemm, Jan-28-03, 08:53 PM, (12) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, KeltikSylk, Jan-28-03, 09:08 PM, (13) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, GMOF3A, Jan-29-03, 11:43 AM, (14) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, griffinmt, Jan-29-03, 12:02 PM, (15) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, GMOF3A, Jan-29-03, 01:09 PM, (17) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, Coonskin, Jan-29-03, 01:17 PM, (18) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, Coonskin, Jan-29-03, 12:12 PM, (16) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, GMOF3A, Jan-29-03, 01:28 PM, (19) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, lfriddle, Jan-29-03, 02:04 PM, (20) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, GMOF3A, Jan-29-03, 02:21 PM, (21) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, enocell, Jan-29-03, 03:17 PM, (22) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, KeltikSylk, Jan-29-03, 03:20 PM, (23) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, Railfan727, Feb-16-03, 08:50 PM, (33) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, griffinmt, Jan-29-03, 03:34 PM, (24) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, GMOF3A, Jan-29-03, 04:13 PM, (25) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, smmille1, Jan-29-03, 07:30 PM, (26) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, smmille1, Jan-29-03, 07:31 PM, (27) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, timken, Jan-30-03, 11:21 AM, (28) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, GMOF3A, Jan-30-03, 02:13 PM, (29) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, MikeSimpson, Jan-31-03, 00:44 AM, (31) RE: GM&O ROUTE, ROUTE BUILDERS please read, GMOF3A, Jan-31-03, 00:54 AM, (32)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

This sounds good. Sounds like there's and arbitrary limit in the editor save code. Probably put there to keep the minimum systems requirements down.All I might add here is that this is a great possibility for adding static objects I would be very weary of selecting, deleting, changing or adding track, roads, signals or other track objects to a "jumbo" .w file. This is because the world files are used to create the .tbd, .rdb, .tit, and .rit databases and if the RE grumps for some reason when trying to do a save it could corrupt one or more of these databases and I have no clue how you would go about resynching them without potentially many hours of work.Paul, do you have any experiences doing the above?Ricahrd

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Interesting stuff. I may have to use this method when I start to add buildings and scenery to Milwaukee as I already have 900 objects in one tile. ALL track.786 ram has been helpful so far though. Route hasn't crashed yet even after going for a couple hours without a save. (Accidentally. Got engrossed in what I was dong. )Todd

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-03 AT 06:39 PM (EST)

Yes Richard...the TDB and RDB is also another story I have not got into yet. You cannot delete a road or track piece from the world file. It can only be deleted from the RE "on screen" unless you canb edit the TDB manually..which is very tricky and time consumingat best..it's just easier this way. If any deletions or changes are to be made...one must locate that file listing in the W file and move it to the upper portion of the whole file..and cut about 2/3rds of the world file and save in the RE..then add your .W file data back in. This way the TDB and RDB objects will be set up as they are supposed to in the databases. Also, if you do not locate the object (any object) in the world file, and either delete it and reset it in the RE, then save again..you will end up with 2 of the same objects in that same place...in which you would simply locate the position of that object in the World file (I use the "Y" position and reference "X and Z"), and search that position, confirming it with the shape file in the world file listing..and deleting it out of the world file, exit RE, and open it back up...it will be gone. BE CAREFUL..as there are other things that may well be placed with the same "Y" position...so always check the whole file data listing before you delete it.Scott...build me a program to do just that!!! (nice trade for some old MR's) Reasons being...I want to get the distance levels back in sync. You see...I have a flat land railroad..so distance levels are not that important to me..but it would be nice to see the Illinois Capitol from a tile away, which I cannot do right now.Todd...I do the same thing!..hehehe..I once placed over 300 objects and forgot to save..and hit a bad piece of track.."send don't send"! ARGGGG! lol.

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hey Richard..I just thought I'd chime in on one more thing...Make back-ups of your RDB, TDB, and Tsection.dat files every time you save a good file. This way..if there is any corruption, you can go back and add the original data bases back in, but keep in mind..that you'll need to replace the world file too, with the backed up file (if corruption occurs) because you will throw the sim into a tizzy, if it's trying to find a piece of track or road section that is not there in the databases.Back ups are the key to success, to all this. You will need them sooner or later doing it this way...that's a drawback worth the trouble.

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

The only real problem I see with this method is that you're either incorrectly listing or completely removing the detail level settings. I believe the Tr_Watermark(x) entries were determined to exist to tell the sim that all objects above that point have a distance level of x or higher (or maybe higher than x - I can't remember which). By doing this, you're getting them out of order. A sensible action would be to have a program that you can run to handle the removing/reinserting process, such that it could even re-sort all of the objects to sit above the proper watermark. This would also make the whole process easier.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

>The only real problem I see with this method is that you're
>either incorrectly listing or completely removing the detail
>level settings. I believe the Tr_Watermark(x) entries were
>determined to exist to tell the sim that all objects above
>that point have a distance level of x or higher (or maybe
>higher than x - I can't remember which). By doing this,
>you're getting them out of order. A sensible action would
>be to have a program that you can run to handle the
>removing/reinserting process, such that it could even
>re-sort all of the objects to sit above the proper
>watermark. This would also make the whole process easier.
So, going off this it sounds like it may be possible to move forest objects to a different location in the w file to change their distance level?That would be a big help as those forests popping in are annoying.Todd

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-03 AT 08:45 PM (EST)

Eek. I wish I'd proofed that message. I started properly with detail level, but then said distance level, which is incorrect. The .w files have nothing to do with the distance level, only the detail level. So you can set when they appear in terms of the world detail slider, but nothing relative to at what distance they appear.Edit: stolen from an email to Paul, here's what I had to say about detail levels:
Note: detail level != distance level. Detail levels are those things that determine if an object ever shows up depending on the world detail slider. I assume you leave yours maxxed at 10, as I do, but I think it’s an extremely useful tool to set things up for the user with the crappy computer. Too bad setting it up is a pain. If the route builder would take the time to assign the values to objects (think of it as an importance level – you’d want the state capitol set at 10, while stupid stuff like lamp posts and random stuff could be set very low), then the user can still see at least a modicum of the route builder’s master plan. Detail levels, by default, are specified in the .sd file for any given object, but can be changed in the RE in the objects properties. I realize it’s probably too late for you, young Skywalker, since you’re so far into this that it’d be insane to go back and try to assign them, but I’d like to build in the functionality to at least keep things in order in the .w file. It’s possible (with some extra work) to automatically open each .sd file and reassemble that way with all of the default values, to where if you really wanted to change something, you could do it in the .sd file for that particular object and then re-run the sort.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Thought it sounded to good to be true.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Thanks for posting Mr. Blum. Always good to hear from you!...
Yep Scott...I understand...what I think has a significant effect on whether or not distant objects appear 2 tiles over all stems from how much virtual memory one has in the 'ol PC..now I know some will dis-agree..but I've noticed that the tiles I have much in often won't show distant objects, but when I'm tooling down through a tile with little in it...the objects in the next tile over seem to load right up...so it looks to be, the 'ol MSTS engine is geared to using all the ram it can get it's little hands on..it seems (to a degree that is) and as usual..I'm open for debate..P.

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Geez, you people reply too fast. I just edited my previous message if you haven't noticed. Paul, there's nothing you haven't seen before, however. That oughta clear it up for anyone else that happens onto it.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

hehhe I leave this on in the background while I work on the route. Check in here every now and then. Thanks again for the info.Todd

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Interesting....I saw a post from you in the forum the other day, Paul - I think you posted at about 3:00AM. Now I know why you're up so late! No choice other than to bookmark this for the tile I have yet to reach - that's when I'll get my advanced degree in route building and put this to good use. The standard keeps marching ahead!Mark
A Southern Railway Fan
The NE Georgia/SC Route

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Paul;You sly old devil. I have two areas, Clinton and Decatur that are missing things because of the limit. Clinton can now have trees and not look like someone used agent orange there! Great finding and I will now have to tinker on my second PC with this.Thanks for the tip.LaterDavid

David Klemm
Illinos & St Louis Divisions
IC Version 1.0 uploaded

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

And Zo, Ve zee you haav been holding back zis from us...Vat odder zecrets are you hiding, Hmmm?Ve haav vays to make you speak this truth!Ever try to type a corny gestapo accent?...Anyways, This will come in very handy on the "Agony Eastern". I appreciate you sharing this mastery of virtual worlds with us.By the way, I took one look at those tail cars and thought, "Dear God, Paul was being over kind!" A full revision is underway. If Monsieur Kelley hasn't done the lighting yet, he may miss the chance.Would you be kinf enough to send me the file GMO2509.dst and any related textures. Me thinks the bug could use some work, and I no longer have a copy of the source file. I need some of those handrails and steps to use on Abe and Ann.Forging on to Pittsburg armed with these new techniques...

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hmmmm. I guess the rest of the builders here read this and will take advantage of it...I kind of thought there would be more discussion on it....it will be interesting and exciting though...to see the different routes pop up with all sorts of new goodies added...

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

For personal route building, I think these things are fine. Bit if they get distrubuted this way, your going to get a flood of 'wassup?' questions when those tweakers start opening it up in RE without knowing.Martyn T. Griffin
griffinmt@mindspring.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Yup Martyn..I agree..and did agree with that before I even opened this can of worms...but if the hobby cannot advance..then what good is all this...BTW..(I've changed my name..and I no longer live in Hack-N-Sack..)lol

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Paulist said:"...but if the hobby cannot advance..then what good is all this..."Possible answer:Ummm... maybe for fun? My simple mind has simple ways.Andre

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Paul:Definitely an interesting and provocative thread.Alas, it is way over my head at this point... but I'm struggling to grasp it.My hope is that I will not have to restort to this.Maybe I'm too conservative... but I'm hoping to keep object count and poly count to managable levels on the two joe-piddly routes I'm working on, and thus not have to wade through such deep doo doo.As for details: Seems to me the poly count is the biggest culprit. Total objects doesn't appear to be as tough on my FPS as the poly's in the objects.I have seen some objects that take 1 or more FPS per item. I'm more concerned about that, than total object count. Case in point, I still have two areas on the SC&N in which you can watch the FPS take a huge hit just by panning the camera toward the area with a high poly count. (The object count here is less than 500.) On my "to do" list is going back into those areas and try to find the culprit(s) causing such a hit. (FPS is around 11 there... and I'm nowhere near finished with object placement.)Guess a bottom line is: I'm not a "leading edge" route maker. Seeing as I have a mid-range or lower computer, I tend to lean toward catering to that type of machine. My defacto test for my routes I'm building is what my machine does with its 1024 res, all sliders maxed but no shadows or wires: Anything above 12-14 FPS is (reluctantly) acceptable... anything consistantly below that... that area has got to be fixed. I like fluidity. Aside from screen shots, a detail MAY be seen once as you pass by it in a train. Thus, I see fluid movement and realistic flow as more important than having small details that are passed by. Of course, this too, comes from my "operators" mentality. (My philosophy towards MSTS being one of "operator". That is, I'm in/on the train nearly 100% of the time.) If MSTS was more of a "railfan" experience to me (i.e. using a lot of exterior views and watching the train instead of running/switching, and/or taking "pics")... then perhaps my preferences would be different.This route building sure is a juggling game... FPS vs detail.I don't think it ever ends.Andre Ming

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

One nice thing Andre...the new systems coming out can handle something as intense as what I've described...Yes..more money...new systems..etc..but for those who like detail and a workable FPS...there is hope on the horizon.

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

OK, my 2 cents.
It's great that you discovered this. I will file that tidbit away for future possible use. However, I will be very reluctant to do this in any route I do.I was telling Coonskin yesterday that in urban areas (read high object count area) I already get a frame rate of only 3 to 5 FPS. I am sure I'm not the only person around stuck with a low end system. I think the built in limits are a protection for us. I would hate to see a frame rate of less than 3. Might as well look at stills!
If someone doesn't mind limiting their audience to those with machines fast enough to handle it, I see no problem. Just be prepared for the flood of "why won't it work" questions as was already mentioned in the thread. People never read the fine print, or hardly ever read documentation at all. One only has to read the questions already posted to this forum to prove that!
Larry

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-03 AT 02:53 PM (EST)

Hi ya Larry!!Yep..I understand completely. It took me just over 5 months to decide to even post this information, you can ask Andre..I was not willing to release any of this until I knew for sure it could benifit some route projects....and as I said in the original post..this is not for low end machines, nor the faint at heart.I am in no way recomending anyone try this, unless they really know what they have....hey..I don't even know all about it, except it worked for me.But as I said before..I feel I owe my friends and peers what I've discovered..whether they like what the see here or not.(it would have been so much easier if KUJU had released the "safety" from this RE, then I would have never posted this.)BTW...I, like the rest of you here, discovered something (this) by trial and error...now it's yours to do with what you want. I really see no reason to hide these facts...there is no reason I can see.(edit) I'm trying to watch this post pretty close in hopes to head off confusion over all this and try to answer any questions that may arise from it.

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

If RE was made by some other person than Kuju/MS, it might have correct protection like Traxx, MonsterTruck madness track editor.(http://drive.to/traxx) MTM2 has limit of 512 objects/track, and Traxx doesn't let you put any objects, it shows a message which will tell the limit. I found only one minor bug from it, and I used it for years!
It's 1000x better than this always changing limit which causes the S/DS.One way to add more objects(but it works only for a couple of objects) is not to move the camera. I have changed the start tile and camera position and RE let me put some objects in. If it loads anything while you are using it, it will crash. So don't move the camera.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

As soon as I'm finished wading through it, I'll discuss and cuss to your hearts content. Take a while to absorb and try this stuff out.At his point the Agony Eastern is only terrain for the most part. I get to use this from the ground up, but I have a long ways to go.I've been in contact with that large Pennsylvania road that provides AllEast with connections to Harrisburg and beyond. Seems as how something can be worked out for through traffic. Wonder if anybody's building through Ohio? I know there's an Indiana route for Conrail. I'll have to check whether that's part of "Lines West", as it's called in Pennsy terms.If this keeps up the big "P" will reach all the way to Chicago. Not sure how the boys coming down from New York are doing, but have you seen the NEC V4? Yousa!If all the work starts to look like the WP Feather River crossing in the Streamliner thread this is going to get nuts.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

The Conrail Indy route is actually a former New York Central line.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

If you were going to 'enable' this appoach with the help of some programming, just how/what would you do to make it somewhat idiot proof.Also, when you strip the .w file, do you leave in all the trackobj and dyntrack entries. I would think moving them out 'for a while' is tempting fate just a little.Martyn T. Griffin
griffinmt@mindspring.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

The programming part is up to someone with more upstairs than I. (As for dynamic track..or anything in the world file for that fact, if you are only adding new objects to get around the limit...you can still "cut" the original file, then save the RE, then paste it back in and save. If you have a road or track section new..it will just save in the tsection and TDB/RDB as normal..as all the other TDB/RDB entries are still in their respected files. The world file is only to reference objects (in this respect). If you want to delete anything out of a world file that is full..you'll need to simply find that entry and remove it..UNLESS..it's a track or road section. Then you'll need to locate that section, and cut and paste it towards the top of the world file, and cut the rest of the file and save what's left in the file, (while RE is opened) then go and delete that section off the tile your working on in RE..then "save" in the RE, re-open the world file, and paste the file back in (what you cut out of it manually that is) and save. I will say..if your world file is under 400KB big, you can save without fear of crashing normally..you can go bigger..but I would not advise it...anything over 400KB in a world file..and I'd be cutting it to save my recent work in RE, and re-paste the cut part back after the RE save, editing the part in between what is saved and the part pasted back in..as I stated in the first post.The best I can tell is the RE has it's own way of logging track and road sections in the TDB and RDB. I say this, because if you remove an entry for a section of track from the world file, you'll still have the TDB lines..but no track object visible for that location, thus...the world file is only the mini lybrary reference (if you will) for MSTS to see, locate, and where to place files onto a tile.
(You can also manually edit the position of an object in the world file).

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Here's my thought process on it:
User loads up RE, futzes around adding objects to a tile. When it comes time to save, the user needs to run "the program", select the tile to alter, and hits the start button. The program should then do this:
clear any backups for the selected .w file made previously by the program (optional)
make a backup of the .w file
parse the .w file, and remove everything except roads/track objects
inform the user that it's time to save in the RE
The user then saves in the RE, and returns to the program, and hits the continue button, at which point the program should
make a backup of the new .w file
parse the new .w file
check for duplicate objects not including roads/track objects and remove them
check for differences in the roads/track objects from before and after the save, and warn the user if there is a difference, and keep the new entries if there is

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Here's my thought process on it:
User loads up RE, futzes around adding objects to a tile. When it comes time to save, the user needs to run "the program", select the tile to alter, and hits the start button. The program should then do this:
clear any backups for the selected .w file made previously by the program (optional)
make a backup of the .w file
parse the .w file, and remove everything except roads/track objects
inform the user that it's time to save in the RE
The user then saves in the RE, and returns to the program, and hits the continue button, at which point the program should
make a backup of the new .w file
parse the new .w file
check for duplicate objects not including roads/track objects and remove them
check for differences in the roads/track objects from before and after the save, and warn the user if there is a difference, and keep the new entries if there is

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Seems to me that low end machines and frame rates just require careful handling when placing huge numbers of objects! If you plan ahead, and set your detail levels carefully in all objects you use, then many of the extra objects won't be forced to appear on lesser machines. Yes it would take some planning to reset everything not really needed to 7 or 8, and all the eye candy to 9 (let's try to leave 10 for invisible objects!).Invisible objects? I use invisible cars to get my automobile traffic down to realistic rural dirt road levels of a car a minute or so. Tim Muir's AI log engine for the high lead logging runs on invisible tracks up the hill.

Steve T.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I wanted to add another bit of info on static flags in the world file.On the subject of adding large amounts of items to a world file:You will need to ensure that all static items are set as terrian items.
This will set the static flags to a level that will keep your added items from "blinking" or "flashing" out of the cam's view while moving around. Trust me on this...when you add alot to a tile/world file, and you do not set those add-on items as terrain items, (which allow no static flag enties to the world file for that object when placed) you run the risk of it dis-appearing in certain camera angles. Maybe this can also be addressed in the program to check world file data, by adding static flags suitable for each object placed.

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hi Paul,I may be wrong on this, but it appears to me that the StaticFlag settings appear only on models where LOD is set up in the model. Thus showing its priority in the scheme of things.If you make a static model a 'Terrain item', its priority is automatically increased (so that bridges etc do not disappear). However surely if you add StaticFlags to every model by making them Terrain Items, then you are back to where you would be if no models were given LOD settings, i.e. everything would have the same priority and it would kill your FPS ?I run my MSTS with the /scaledlevs:250 flag thus increasing the distance levels by 2.5 times in any case, so this possibly has the same effect.

Mike

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Worth a shot Mike...I am afraid though..that there may be a visual problem with items not set to static flags.Yes..it does cause decrease in frame rates..but I'm banking on the new systems coming out to handle that...and much more...Hey..if you can find a way to lessen the load by not setting everything asa terrain item..let me know..that would be great.I can tell you this much...right now..with so many objects in the world file..anything I place and save without setting them as terrain items will flash out when I go back into RE, and it's a real pain to even get them to select to find out where it's located in the world file.Let me know if you find a better way...P.

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

Alert | IP

[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | File Library ] Copyright © 2002 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.