Using prototype profiles

I've got a full set of profiles for the Chicago to St. Paul route of the Milwaukee Road (now Canadian Pacific). I'm contemplating building a portion of this and I am curious how many others have used actual profiles (track charts, whatever you might call them) in the building of routes.What pitfalls might I expect? I recall reading something where a builder suggested not following the profile to the letter as it becomes choppy. Any advice will be appreciated.TIATodd

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Interestingly enough, I have the Milwaukee Road profiles for Harlowton, MT to Avery, ID., so mine may be similar to yours unless you have gotten some SOO line or CP revised ones.They are easy to use, at least for me, but I have been using them for many years as a professional railroad engineering employee, now retired. There some things to watch for.First, you need to generate a marker file for the approximate center-line of the r/w, note, I did not say track. You can do this by digitizing manually off of topo maps, or somewhat more automatically by digitizing GeoTiff files with MicroDem, or you can download Convert31 I believe it is called from the file library and use it to generate your centerlines. It helps though, if you refer to the topo maps anyway because convert31 sometimes is off a few meters - like maybe it puts the tracks out in the Mississippi R. a few yards and things like that. I just adjust those situations by eye.Next, the curves on the chart are generally identified in the direction of ascending mileposts. I.E. a curve marked as "L" means a left curve if you are going UP in mileposts. This curve will have one or more numbers on it to indicate the DEGREE of curvature. Usually these will be like 10-35, meaning 10 degrees 35 minutes of curvature, a fairly sharp curve. You need to convert this into meters of radius to get the curve correctly in MSTS. Note that there are no spirals or superelevation in MSTS, so the start of the curve and end of it, will vary from what the markers indicate. If it is, for example a 10 degree curve, then the radius in meters is 1746/10 or 174.6 meters. This is good enough for our needs.Sometimes, the profile will indicate actual elevation above sea level, and if it does, this is a big help - usually they don't. When you don't know the actual elevations, you must calculate/estimate them from topo maps. I look for places where the THICK contour lines cross the track, and then find out what this elevation is. I use topozone maps for this purpose (www.topozone.com). At the bottom of the map image, select the decimal degrees button. Now lets imagine that at -82.3300 37.5400 you find an elevation of 1800 feet. Convert this to meters -- 1800/3.28 = 548.7M.Using WordPad, a part of Windows, edit your marker file and put this entry into it.Marker(-82.330000 37.540000 E-548.7M 2) This will put a nice blue flag into your editor window at the coordinate location, and with the note above it "E-548.7M" or whatever you choose to indicate elevation.
Try to hit your KNOWN elevation points within +-1 meter.You will see places where there are a number of variations in gradient of the track, in a short distance. You can't do this in MSTS, so I just use the average. Likewise on compound curves, where there are several changes of curvature within the same curve.Need More?J. H. Sullivan, P.E. (retired, creator of the BR Sub. and soon to be released KP sub of CSX)

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Thanks JH. I do know how to read one, these are original Milwaukee profiles that have simply been updated, so I don't have any problems there. They should be identical in appearance to yours.I'm going to try and digest all that you have put in this post, and save it for reference. I'm sure I will come up with some more specific questions in the future.btw-Any chance of getting some scans of those Harlo-Avery profiles? That's and area I would REALLY like to do. I'm going to try my hand at the territory between Portage and Milwaukee first as this is the territory I operate over. Hopefully, my familiararity with it will be helpful.Thanks,Todd

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Todd- Visit http://trainsite.8m.com/ for the profiles of the Rocky Mountain Division and any other division of the Milwaukee Road. That's where I got the Harlow-Avery RMD profiles I'm using to model the First and Second Subs of the RMD. It's a great site and the service is just as good!Austin S.
austin_seely@yahoo.com
Milwaukee Road's Pacific Coast Extension Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/milwpaccoastextension/
Designer-
Milwaukee Road's Trans-Missouri Division
Version 0.2

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I used track charts in wide parts of my route.
It isn't possible to 100% transfer them to the RE, because of the limition of the available radii etc. What i did was to take the heights given for many points in the charts to level these points in the route, and most of the track layout was built according to the charts.
Also very helpful is the fact that you can see if a road crosses over, under, or at level.
Very often the charts help to locate points (e.g. a certain siding branching of "just after that curve" or such)Werner

--> Visit the Virtual Lehigh Valley <--
www.geocities.com/wmueller28/msts.html

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I'm building on a DEM'd route. The profiles do show elevations at ALL of the grade changes. I need to figure out how to adjust this thing so that the elevations are where I want them and the grades should come out right.Right? At least I got the Guide so I can figure out what degree a .6% grade is.....Well, of to work.Be backj in a couple days.TR Jones

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I suppose I should let everyone know what I am attempting to build.This particular section, I hope to do others, will run from Milwaukee WI to Portage WI. About 92 miles. I will be building it as it was in Milwaukee Road days, all double track. This line has a fairly up and down profile so it should be interesting to operate.Both Portage and Milwaukee will have yards. I don't know just how far I will go with Milwaukee as it was a very extensive complex up until the early '80's. The shops alone were huge, let alone the fact there were four or so yards in the Menomonie Valley alone.There are two branches of the route, both going towards Madison WI. One comes off at Watertown about halfway between the endpoints, the other leaves the main at Portage. Adding these is a decision I will make later as I am using this route as a learning tool as much as anything. (Hope to do the Rocky Mountain Division or the Coast Div. if I can figure this thing out)Well, I gotta go now. No holidays on the railroad.We're actually busier now than normal. *argh*TR Jones

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I track charts are a must if you can get em. I'm doing the old ATSF from LA to Bartstow CA and the charts show where to put signals, sidings, spurs, bridges, mileposts, station names etc. Not to mention curve and elevation data. Another good tool is MS Streets and Trips, this map gives lat,lon coords in decimal format and plots mainline railroads. Just open Streets in one window and wordpad in another and in a few hours you have markers.

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I would expect that the charts available from the mentioned source would be better than what I could scan. My sheets are photocopies of probably original sheets, but I don't really know.As for figuring grades. I find that if a grade is generally rising from point A to point B, or lowering, then just take the average of the bits and pieces in between. When you lay the track, do not immediate adjust the terrain ("y key"). It is likely that you will have to redo this grade once or twice to get it as nearly correct as you can.Once you are satisfied with the result, then use the "Y" key, but BEWARE::: Only the terrain change buffers are stored for the tile you are on. If you go to another tile, adjust, and then do a save, and later come back into the program, you may find that your earlier work was not saved. The solution is to save often. Another point, unless you actually adjust the track, it is not necessary to save the object placements, and I have less problem with corruptions if I just save the terrain, i.e. answer no to the first option. You are merely selecting the pieces to carve the terrain, you are not ACTUALLY MOVING THEM. Another point. Sometimes, if we move off of a tile, and attempt to do an adjustment, the disk thrashes for while, and we get the "send don't send" message. Again, save frequently.I plan to do the Avery to Haugan section, of the Milwaukee first, but it will be spring before I get to it. The trestles, steep grade, and curves of the west slope will be a fright. I am going to do it "as electrified" although if I include the Wallace Br. of the NP, it will also be unprototypically electrified - just one of the quirks of MSTS.J. H. Sullivan

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J.H.I have NP profiles for a portion of the route I'm working on, but cann't figure out what some of the numbers mean. The figure below is one of the curves from the profile with the known and unknown parts marked. Can you help.

CarToad Dave Wise
Camas Prairie Route
Started over, Bummer!

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http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3de6f03a3b9dce80.gif

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>J.H.
>
>I have NP profiles for a portion of the route I'm working
>on, but cann't figure out what some of the numbers mean.
>The figure below is one of the curves from the profile with
>the known and unknown parts marked. Can you help. Dave,You should have just asked.This profile reads from right to left as it is done from the "south" side of the track and mileposts increase to the "west". Directions by timetable, track itself can go in any direction, from Pullman to Joel the westbound trains ran east and the eastbound trains ran west.P.C. is point of curvature, where the tangent track ends and the curve begins.P.S. (not shown, but look two curves to the right of your example) is point of spiral, where tangent track ends and a spiral easement begins.P.C.C. (also not shown, but again two curves to the right) is the point where one curve ends and another begins. Not sure of the exact technical term and can think of more than one, but typically think of it as point of common curvature.P.T. is point of tangency, where the curve ends and the tangent begins.The P.C. is at engineering station 6529+10.7 and the P.T. is at engineering station 6534+45.7. The plus separates the hundreds from the thousands. So the curve begins 652,910.7 feet from the zero point and ends 535 feet later. In this particular case the zero point is at Marshall, Washington, where the Paluose and Lewiston branch leaves the NP mainline. This distance from the zero point has been modified by several "equations" 'tween there and here where track changes have changed the length of the track.Direction of curve is correct, as you would stand at the P.C., looking toward the P.T., the curve bends to the right.This particular curve is a 4 degree curve, and it spans 21 degrees, 24 minutes. So the radius of the curve is 50/sin(4/2) or 1432.7 feet. Based on the radius and span, the length of the curve is 535.1 feet (see my post 10. below). If the stationing and the span are correct, the curve is a 4 degree, 0 minute, 3 second curve, with a radius of 1432.4 feet. Not much of a difference for one curve, but on a route with hundreds of curves it adds up.David Beach.Palouse & LewistonRoute Building 1% Completed
Route Mapping 10% Completed
Route Photo Map 50% Completed

Standardized \global\tsection.dat file now at build00010.

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Looks simular to ATSF charts. The 4.0 degree C is degree of curvature, to approximate the radius divide 1746 by C. (1746/4 = 436.5m) The delta angle of the curve is first converted from degree,min,sec to decimal. To convert 21 degrees 24 minutes multiply the minutes by 0.016667. (24*0.016667=.4) The delta angle is 21.4. If you want to use the 21.4 delta on a section of dynamic track you need to convert it to radians. Multiply 21.4 times .017444. (21.4*0.017444=0.373)
If you read the chart left to right the curve ^ is left, if you read the chart from right to left the curve ^ is right. Can't help with the other stuff.

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I'm working off of a complete set of profiles for the NP Palouse and Lewiston (P&L). Sometimes I think that they can be as much of a curse as a blessing, perhaps because I am trying for a level of accuracy beyond what MSTS is capable of, but I find that the profiles are not as accurate as would be desired. Could well be that the profiles were close enough for the railroad, but I've extracted all of the information from the profiles and used it to plot the route in AutoCAD, overlaying that line on maps of the area. Does not work real well.One problem is that curves in degrees tend to get rounded off, listed, for example as a 3 degree curve, with an angle of 23 degees, 30 minutes. But if you use the engineering stations at both ends of the curve, it is either not 3 degrees or it does not span 23 degrees, 30 minutes, or the track is not the distance listed between the stations. I tend to take the track distance, the easiest thing to meaure in the field, to be the most accurate, followed by the included angle, with the degree of curvature being the least accurate. All in all, a bit of a pain. More than the route is likely to need, but I am also working on what will likely be a highly detailed set of maps to accompany a book that may someday get written (not by me) about the P&L, and it will be the definitive book on the P&L, but first the research has to be completed, and every new fact also produces a new question.David Beach.Palouse & LewistonRoute Building 1% Completed
Route Mapping 10% Completed
Route Photo Map 50% Completed

Standardized \global\tsection.dat file now at build00010.

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