Track Profile Charts

Hey everybody, I was wondering if anybody has some track profiles they could copy for me. I am working on the Norfolk & Western's Pocahontas District between Bluefield, WV and Williamson, WV with a heavy emphasis on the Bluestone branch and any and all mine branches. I have started already but would like to go the next mile and elevation charts and track profiles & such would definatly help. Currently I am going off printed topo maps and I want to make sure every thing is as close to the real thing as possible. NWfan, you come recomended by J H Sullivan, do you think you could lend a fellow a hand?Thanks folks.

EIN
"Running Dirty there, tail end. Clean that stack up. You know mangement don't like that crap."
http://www.trainweb.org/railmation/ronsgifs.html

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RE: Track Profile Charts, LawrenceKellie, Oct-21-02, 07:38 PM, (1) RE: Track Profile Charts, nwman, Oct-21-02, 08:05 PM, (2) RE: Track Profile Charts, LawrenceKellie, Oct-21-02, 09:54 PM, (3) RE: Track Profile Charts, landnrailroader, Oct-21-02, 10:12 PM, (4) RE: Track Profile Charts, dbclarke, Oct-23-02, 09:13 AM, (5) RE: Track Profile Charts, LawrenceKellie, Oct-23-02, 10:38 AM, (6) RE: Track Profile Charts, dbclarke, Oct-23-02, 01:04 PM, (7) RE: Track Profile Charts, calr, Oct-23-02, 01:24 PM, (8) RE: Track Profile Charts, LawrenceKellie, Oct-23-02, 01:39 PM, (9) RE: Track Profile Charts, calr, Oct-23-02, 01:59 PM, (10) RE: Track Profile Charts, LawrenceKellie, Oct-23-02, 03:24 PM, (11) RE: Track Profile Charts, Macster, Oct-23-02, 03:33 PM, (12) RE: Track Profile Charts, dbclarke, Oct-23-02, 03:42 PM, (13) RE: Track Profile Charts, LawrenceKellie, Oct-23-02, 04:09 PM, (14) RE: Track Profile Charts, dbclarke, Oct-24-02, 09:02 AM, (15) RE: Track Profile Charts, pwillard, Oct-24-02, 02:53 PM, (16) RE: Track Profile Charts, dbclarke, Oct-24-02, 09:46 PM, (17) RE: Track Profile Charts, SouthernCpl, Oct-28-02, 11:45 PM, (18)

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Here is a site where you can buy track charts: http://trainsite.8m.com//profiles_bound_photocopies.htmLawrence

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Hi just though I'd let you know I have dems down loaded and in game for that route and have charts to do that route.I have some track down but got put aside because of track.It's kinda hard to do mountain railroading with the track MSTS gave us, so I'm hopeing MSTS2 gives us more track to choose from.I'm not telling you so you want do it because if you want to it's fine with me.I have know problem If you want to do It to.I have also been working in TSM and other tinkered with some painting,so have not stuck soley on the route.I was born in williamson once I get some track down I want to make a trip up and take pictures to help with land scape.

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Use XTracks. Lawrence

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I chose not to use X-tracks and did fine with a mountain railroad.I also am not using it on the KP sub., and none of the track which some of you noticed in my upload of a few days ago is done with it.
I am leery of using anything that might corrupt the program, but personally, I hope that version (infinity perhaps) contains not only most of what is contained in X-tracks, but offers a more stable platform and precise data on how to add such stuff. Now having said that, I have great respect for those who developed X-tracks, but I just choose to do it with out-of-the box stuff.If you can get track charts, it is fairly easy to use Dynamic track to match the curves. Most track charts will state the degree of curve in degrees/minutes. Convert this to decimal degrees and divide into 1746, and it will give you the radius in meters, close enough for MSTS work. You may not be able to determine curve length, but since the indications on the track chart include spirals, which cannot be easily done in MSTS, it is better to adjust the tangets entering and leaving the curve, until you approximate the plotted (or markered) line of the track as close as possible.Caveat: Dynamic track is easy to use if you remember a hard rule. It does not relate correctly to elevation, i.e. gradient. Consequently, if it is a long curve, on a fairly steep grade, it will be apparently much steeper, and cause a bump, and probably an uncoupling if negotiated at much speed. Solution. If the gradient is greater than about .3 (as read on your screen), limit the curve to about .5 (radians I think that value is) turning angle. If necessary then put on another dynamic piece etc. until the curve is done. Some have said that it is necessary to put a small piece (10m) of tangent between Dynamic pieces. I have done them with and without, and either seems to work fine. On the InterState R.R. piece, in the KP sub., I broke this rule, because there are 12 degree LONG curves on a 3% grade, but this little piece (2 miles or so) is in there more for AI purposes than for actual use. (and you better GO REAL SLOW down that hill, and turn up retainers)Key to doing a route, because of the editor instability, is to do FREQUENT backups.I copy my root files, world, tile, and td directories to a scratch area on another drive at least once during each session, sometimes twice. I keep a numbered set of directories Kport1, kport2-----kport15, and do my backups in sequence (each backup is about 200M). After a maximum of 3 days, usually 2, I do a full backup to CD/R. Since the route is now larger than a CD (with all of the extra doo-dads that you accumulate, and which get compressed out before uploading), I leave out either the Sound & Textures, or the Sound & Shapes folders on the full backups. These don't change much from backup to backup, and can be restored from other sources if necessary.J. H. Sullivan, P.E.

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>If you can get track charts, it is fairly easy to use
>Dynamic track to match the curves. Most track charts will
>state the degree of curve in degrees/minutes. Convert this
>to decimal degrees and divide into 1746, and it will give
>you the radius in meters, close enough for MSTS work. You
>may not be able to determine curve length, but since the
>indications on the track chart include spirals, which cannot
>be easily done in MSTS, it is better to adjust the tangets
>entering and leaving the curve, until you approximate the
>plotted (or markered) line of the track as close as
>possible.
>
>Caveat: Dynamic track is easy to use if you remember a hard
>rule. It does not relate correctly to elevation, i.e.
>gradient. Consequently, if it is a long curve, on a fairly
>steep grade, it will be apparently much steeper, and cause a
>bump, and probably an uncoupling if negotiated at much
>speed. Solution. If the gradient is greater than about .3
>(as read on your screen), limit the curve to about .5
>(radians I think that value is) turning angle. If necessary
>then put on another dynamic piece etc. until the curve is
>done. Some have said that it is necessary to put a small
>piece (10m) of tangent between Dynamic pieces. I have done
>them with and without, and either seems to work fine. On
>the InterState R.R. piece, in the KP sub., I broke this
>rule, because there are 12 degree LONG curves on a 3% grade,
>but this little piece (2 miles or so) is in there more for
>AI purposes than for actual use. (and you better GO REAL
>SLOW down that hill, and turn up retainers) Let me second what Mr. Sullivan has said. I've not uploaded any of my routes yet, but I have completed a hypothetical shortline and am also working on part of the old SAL Hamlet-Atlanta mainline. In my view, dynamic track is essential to accurate track modeling. I'm a civil engineer and understand track alignment. Using dynamic track, you can get pretty close to the actual. Using D.T., spirals can even be approximated using short sections of broader curves leading into the full body of the actual curve. I don't see much advantage for MSTS in getting this close, however. Anyway, I've used D.T. extensively and have had little problem with it. I minimize the grade accuracy issue by laying curves in short sections, like a model railroad with snap track. My section size is based more on length than angle, though, as I've found that this seems to have more of an effect. I look at the overall curve and break it down into segments of about 75m. This also allows nice smooth vertical curves. I don't put tangents between the sections unless they are there in the real alignment. Also, I generally don't mix tangents and curves in an individual D.T. section. I think D.T. works best if either a curve or a tangent, but not a mix.I have not, to my recollection, used any MSTS fixed curve sections except for the turnout ends. I do use the fixed tangents whenever possible, filling in with a D.T. tangent to get to the curve beginning. In any case, use short sections when doing vertical curves to get a smooth transition. I try to keep the grade change between track sections to a maximum of 0.150, assuming a section length of 100m.Regards,
David Clarke
Clemson, SC

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I commend both of my worthy co-creators their choice to not use XTracks. However, since dynamic track is *known* to cause problems (or highly suspect), it behooves the route developer to use caution.Lawrence

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>I commend both of my worthy co-creators their choice to not
>use XTracks. However, since dynamic track is *known* to
>cause problems (or highly suspect), it behooves the route
>developer to use caution. Knock on wood, I've had no problem with the RE that I can attribute to the use of dynamic track, and I've used it almost exclusively for curves. I do follow these posts carefully, and am aware of some of the caveats. Hopefully my lucky streak won't end. I do scrupulously follow the recommendation of not adding sounds, MPs, signals, etc. until after the track and roads are in. I know violating that makes the RE crazy.As for XTracks, I have always kept up it by downloading the latest versions. However, as of yet, I haven't installed it. Mostly, it a matter of not yet needing it and not having time to study the installation requirements. However, when the need arises, provided that MSTS 2.0 hasn't arrived with improved track sections, I will install XTracks.David

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I have been using Xtracks on Columbia Gorge for about two months now. As I lay track along the banks of the Columbia River heading west, if it weren't for Xtracks, I would be using a LOT of dynamic tracks. After my track database problems of a couple weeks ago, I am very leery of using dynamic tracks.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, ORColumbia Gorge Route (TDB problems fixed, continuing to lay track westward.)

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>I have been using Xtracks on Columbia Gorge for about two
>months now. As I lay track along the banks of the Columbia
>River heading west, if it weren't for Xtracks, I would be
>using a LOT of dynamic tracks. After my track database
>problems of a couple weeks ago, I am very leery of using
>dynamic tracks. Have you found and used the 365r12d yet? Great for those places where 10d is too shallow an arc and 10d+5d is too much. Also great for when 500r is too whatever and 250r is too opposite whatever. I have found that I use it a lot.Lawrence

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I have use one or two of those but I think it is actually 865r12d. I have also used some 8000m5d, 4000m5d. Those are handy when a 500mstrt section won't work. I have one spur leading to the top of The Dalles Dam that has some 60r10d sections! Don't even think of taking any larger than a small switcher around those curves.Then, don't forget the little pieces--20mstrt, 5mstrt, 1mstrt. Okrasa, thank you!Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, ORColumbia Gorge Route (TDB problems fixed, continuing to lay track westward.)

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Yes, I think I have used about all of the non-point-type tracks. With the selection that we have, you can almost totally dispense with the dynamic track. If/When Okrasa gets the 500r1d and 500r2d finished, I believe we will be able to do most anything. Even reduce the need/use of dynamic track even more.Lawrence

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Interesting, I've been using a mix of everything just about (Xtracks, Dynamic Track, Default MSTS Tracks) and so far *so far* haven't had any problems, guess you can call me lucky, but thanks to the combained 3, I have finished Fife Yard. Next Stop, Northbound to West Siding!Brian E. Bundridge
Founder - Evergreen Tracks
Seattle, Washington

Laying Rail on The UP Main Line between Sumner, Wa and Kent/West Siding

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>Yes, I think I have used about all of the non-point-type
>tracks. With the selection that we have, you can almost
>totally dispense with the dynamic track. If/When Okrasa
>gets the 500r1d and 500r2d finished, I believe we will be
>able to do most anything. Even reduce the need/use of
>dynamic track even more. If you're really into accurate modeling of a track alignment, there's no way you can do without dynamic track. I use track charts and marker files, and, so far, I've been able to closely reproduce track alignments. Being a civil engineer, that's my thing, I guess. Like others have mentioned, dynamic track is the MSTS equivalent of flextrack. XTracks and the default track sections are snaptrack. Both types of track have their place. It's just a matter of what you want to do.David

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>If you're really into accurate modeling of a track
>alignment, there's no way you can do without dynamic track.
>I use track charts and marker files, and, so far, I've been
>able to closely reproduce track alignments. Being a civil
>engineer, that's my thing, I guess. Like others have
>mentioned, dynamic track is the MSTS equivalent of
>flextrack. XTracks and the default track sections are
>snaptrack. Both types of track have their place. It's just
>a matter of what you want to do.
>
>David I agree 100%. The question that comes to mind is how "close" is "close"? Clearly, if you want to be no more than 6" off the prototypical, you will be using a LOT of dynamic track. If 6' is okay, well, you may not.But so far, I have not heard of anyone who has measured where the track is and complained that it is not accurate. Lawrence

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>I agree 100%. The question that comes to mind is how
>"close" is "close"? Clearly, if you want to be no more than
>6" off the prototypical, you will be using a LOT of dynamic
>track. If 6' is okay, well, you may not.
>
>But so far, I have not heard of anyone who has measured
>where the track is and complained that it is not accurate.
>
>
>LawrenceTrue, true. Generally, it's a "rivet counting" kind of thing. In mountainous terrain like the CRR traverses, though, fitting the track to the DEM'ed terrain might be challenging without "flex track."I might add, getting track within 6 ft of actual location using any sort of track in MSTS would be quite an accomplishment! The level of precision for our geographic data sources (DEM, TIGER, GPS) won't get us nearly this close. But, we can, with track charts, at least make the alignment follow the prototype reasonably well.Flex or snap, whatever works for you.David

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LOLhehe... I *have* track charts... I'll be d*mned if I can read them...A Civil Engineer, I'm not. I'm stuck with using just markers...(Is there a trick to reading them?)Pete Willard

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>
>LOL
>
>hehe... I *have* track charts... I'll be d*mned if I can
>read them...
>
>A Civil Engineer, I'm not. I'm stuck with using just
>markers...
>
>(Is there a trick to reading them?) One problem might be that every RR has its own format for the charts. Some are easy to read and full of detail (NS, for example). Others are pretty sketchy and hard to follow (generally older charts). You can find the track vertical and horizontal profile on pretty much any chart, along with mileposts. The NS and UP charts I've seen are chock full of other details (bridge locations, detector and signal placement, sidings, grade crossings, etc.). They're invaluable for modeling track in MSTS.As to how to interpret them...after the semester is done, perhaps I can draw up a tutorial.David

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I know it is a rivit counting thing. It is a tragic flaw of mine. I can't help it. I try not to, I just want to do the route justice. If you've ever seen the area I'm doing up close, it is like a spider's web of rail down practically every hollow and the curves are horrendously tight. Just looking at the mine branches rusting away half buried in trees and forest now, I can hear the flanges of Y class steamers and Lc electrics screaming on the curves with loads out and empties in. I just want the route to provide the same feeling I got when I was exploring, out in the wilderness, where every turn brings a new mining complex or small town booming with coal company money. I think the closer I get to being prototypical, the more justice I do the route and anybody who's ever been afiliated with it.

EIN
"Running Dirty there, tail end. Clean that stack up. You know mangement don't like that crap."
http://www.trainweb.org/railmation/ronsgifs.html

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