MSTS Update 1.2

In case you didn't see the posts over in the General forum, MS has come out with another update which includes two locomotives, some freight cars, and Gmax. It states that the first update must be installed before 1.2 is installed. The pictures of the SD-40 cab are outstanding.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, ORColumbia Gorge Route (Blasting tunnels near Lyle, Washington)

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RE: MSTS Update 1.2, griffinmt, Oct-17-02, 03:27 PM, (1) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, troub, Oct-17-02, 03:32 PM, (2) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, griffinmt, Oct-17-02, 03:51 PM, (3) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, landnrailroader, Oct-17-02, 05:07 PM, (4) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, GMOF3A, Oct-17-02, 08:27 PM, (5) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, CharlieB, Oct-17-02, 09:07 PM, (6) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, LawrenceKellie, Oct-17-02, 09:54 PM, (7) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, CharlieB, Oct-18-02, 12:54 PM, (13) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, jkcooney, Oct-20-02, 03:32 PM, (19) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, Stooopid_person, Oct-18-02, 10:43 AM, (11) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, griffinmt, Oct-17-02, 11:54 PM, (8) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, tvrail, Oct-18-02, 09:40 AM, (9) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, GT Dan, Oct-18-02, 10:13 AM, (10) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, griffinmt, Oct-18-02, 11:48 AM, (12) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, Signalmaster, Oct-18-02, 01:08 PM, (14) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, pdaa, Oct-18-02, 06:58 PM, (15) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, jkcooney, Oct-20-02, 03:35 PM, (20) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, Stooopid_person, Oct-19-02, 03:15 AM, (16) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, roeter, Oct-20-02, 02:58 AM, (17) RE: MSTS Update 1.2, lenglel, Oct-20-02, 03:24 AM, (18)

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-02 AT 03:28 PM (EDT)

Let me see if I get this right.V1.2 consists (sorry for the pun) of two new trainsets and related activities??!!The GMAX gamepack and sample have existed for a long time and did not even require update#1 to use them.If so, compare that in about ten months to what members of this forum produce every week!Martyn T. Griffin
griffinmt@mindspring.com

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The new items in v1.2 were produced by members of this forum. Namely, TrainArtisan for one. Another 3rd party developer created a UK trainset, too, as I understand it.

troub
MSTS: Illinois Central

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Even so, I sent the following message off indicating my displeasure. I hope I have not misrepresented anyone on this forum-----------------------------------------------------------------
MSTS Version 1.2
----------------You have a lot of nerve releasing a couple of trainsets and a few activities
after 10 months and calling it a new version of MSTS!!Members of the Train-Sim web site for example turn out much more than this
and of equal or better quality every week. And when they are not doing that,
they are struggling with the ramifications of all the bugs and mistakes that
exist in the current version. As it is, most would gladly turn in the
default 6 routes in trade for a simulator that exhibits a more consistent
and reliable result, and Route editing tools that do not corrupt and destroy
weeks of hard work.Perhaps some of your product 'authors' should spend some time looking at the
daily dialogues that occur involving the struggles to overcome these
problems. That way, v1.3 (or V2.0 when it arrives) won't be met with
distrust and dismay.Yours Truly,
Martyn T. Griffin-----------------------------------------------------------------Martyn T. Griffin
griffinmt@mindspring.com

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Well put Martyn.J. H. Sullivan, P.E. (wishing for a stable product also)

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Well said Martyn..I echo your letter (if they'd only read these!)

Paul...
www.mstsgmo.com

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MS doesn't have to read letters from their customers...they're the only store in town. MS is the best argument in favor of competition and against monopoly in a capitalist economy ever assembled. In fact one of the key problems with MS-think is that they consider us customers, not clients. Charlie

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>MS doesn't have to read letters from their
>customers...they're the only store in town.
>
>MS is the best argument in favor of competition and against
>monopoly in a capitalist economy ever assembled.
>
>In fact one of the key problems with MS-think is that they
>consider us customers, not clients. From dictionary.com:Customer: One that buys goods or services. Client: The party for which professional services are rendered, as by an attorney. A customer or patron: clients of the hotel. Whereas, client does have the meaning of a "customer," I don't see the full meaning of "client" expressed in my relationship with Microsoft. I am a customer. They have not rendered any professional services. They have sold me a product.Lawrence

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-18-02 AT 12:57 PM (EDT)

That's exactly my point. They are not trying to establish a long term, professional relationship with the people to whom they market their products. As a professional engineer who provides reservoir management software to the water supply industry, I know the importance of listening to my clients and responding to their comments in a positive way. I value my clients' inputs, because they point out areas in which my product can be improved and provide an impetus for me to do so. The reputation I have in the water supply industry is what brings me the next sale. MS, on the other hand, views their relationship with the people they market their products to as similar to that of a manufacturer who is only interested in the one-time sale...who does not see the relationship between this sale and the next one. They exhibit a take-it-or-leave-it attitude..."my product is what it is and I will only improve it if no one will buy it". That works for mass-marketed products like hair brushes on a market shelf, and it works when there is no competition...when there is a monopoly. What makes this situation interesting is that MS does not truly have a monopoly on any single product, except perhaps its operating system. There are other train simulators, other word processors, etc., but MS pretty much has a lock on the OS, so they have a huge marketing advantage and can afford to treat the buyer as customer not client.Until we see an increase in the number of recreational systems running Linux with an open-source train simulator, we can count on MS to remain as unresponsive as ever. Charlie

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I had reason to hope that Lawrence's absence from this forum for several months might have tempered his arrogance and apparent impatience with those of us who consider this a hobby for pleasure rather than a forum for displaying his disdane for anyone who seems to have slightly less knowledge than he does. What a shame. My hopes have been dashed.J. Cooney, Ocala, FL

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Yeah, with all the add-ons around here, then M$ would call it v1.99! So all of us are having v1.99 in M$ point of view.-------------My favourite LUL train-------------

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-02 AT 11:56 PM (EDT)

We all have opinions about who screws who and who enjoys it the most, but we would be better off using these energies compiling a document expressing our honest (and doable) needs of the product and trying to start a dialogue with MS on the matter. There is no doubt that others have tried and failed. But it is in our own best interest to continue to try, and do it in as proffesional a manner to the extent a loosely coupled group can muster.If all are willing to take a little time and jot down what they know about problems and solutions (and IMPORTANT missing features), I will volunter to help gather the facts and 'try' to organize them. They should not be presented in abstract form, but with some sense of measurement and/or degree of impact.When we are in some sense of agreement as to content and priority, we can then work on presenting this to MS. I think I still have a few doorways available to try from before I retired, and anyone who is on this forum that is employed by MS or is well aquainted with someone that is are encouraged to assist in that direction.If I don't get any positive feed back from a representative cross-section, I'll assume that everyone is happy with what they have.

Martyn T. Griffin
griffinmt@mindspring.com

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Okay, can someone tell me where to download the package that updates trainsim.exe v1.1 into v1.2? Seemingly I either have missed it or it just does not exist.If they have not changed anything in the EXE file itself they really have the nerve to call it version 1.2! That is against all the recommended and worldwide practises in separating the versions!And I could not agree more with the letter you have sent to the MS. I have also sent a number of them, but naturally got no response.MS has been more than willing to tell us that "You should understand that these tools are for experienced computer users only and that they are not supported by M tech support".To translate that into plain English results: "The tools are not supported by MS tech support, period. Screw you."Okay. I got the point. Then who supports the tools and editors? Kuju? Unlikely.

TVRail
CEO, Parkdale Western Railroad
Member of Yonder Locomotive Works

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Martyn,You have my support in this never ending battle to improve MSTS. I'll kist some improvements I'd like to see, but first a comment.Having used Microsoft products for the past 12 years (when I foolishly made the move from the Apple ]< series), there seems to be an accepted policy used by most (not all) software manufacturers - releasing a semi-stable product and half-hearted "fixes". [P>On to my "requests"! 1) A better directory structure. I have fifteen engines and over two hundred freight cars (similar to my HO setup) and these all reside in the same directory. This makes it almost impossible to apply updates, fixes, or add new cars. I would suggest the following structure:
TRAINSET
--/ENGINES
---/GP38
---/SD40
---/COMMON.CAB
---/COMMON.SND
--/FREIGHT
---/C&O21221
---/GT599212) The ability to import a map (BMP, JPG, or whatever) into RE without having to cut it into 16 patches for each tile. I use the method of applying the map as a terrain texture for my GT route in order to position trach, structures, etc.3) With all the computing power most game players have, it seems somewhat silly to have worse graphics than MSFS. With my system (Athalon 1700+, 512mb PC2700, MSI K3 Ultra mb, ATI Radeon 8500 128mb, and 60 gb HD) I had to sverely play with the settings to get a good frame rate. In MSFS, I maxed every slider and still had 25 fps while landing at O'Hare.Thanks for the efforts,

Daniel Ward
The Good Track Railroad is coming!

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Below is a response I got via email from Teemu VehkaojaAs a suggestion, for now, please place your input onto the forum where all can see it. If the volume of input warants, we can move forward from here. I would also like, when the time comes, to use some/all of the messages 'exactly' as attachments to what would surely be a summarization document. So be honest about why a change is needed, but limit yourself from MS bashing, it does the effort a disservice.Thanks
------------------------------------------------------------------Good idea to make an organized list about missing
features in TS. I have a few:1.
There is a support for DISTANT, REPEATER and SHUNTING
signals in the signal script. However these signals
must be placed behind a NORMAL (home) signal to work.
This limitation should be removed becouse it will
crash the sim if there is no NORMAL signal.2.
The signal scripts should also be able to read signal
tokens APPROACH_4 thru APPROACH_9, and CLEAR_3 thru
CLEAR_9.3.
Activity editor should be made capable to handle
multiple train meets and events where a player train
is being taken into the hole in order to allow a
faster AI train to overtake.4.
Station announcements. Both in the passenger view and
on the platforms. In the passenger view announcement
there should be an option for creating a point on the
tracks where the in-train announcement is activated by
a train going in the specified direction. Trains
traveling in opposite direction would not get this
announcement.5.
As above, but view cab view and hotbox/defect
detectors.6.
Multiplayer option! LAN/Internet/etc.7.
Train dispatcher screen! Real world has train
dispatchers, why not including a train dispatcher in
TS. With multiplayer option it would be desired.8.
Easier ways to create and edit the routes. Try the
German Zug Simulator.9.
Better track geometry. XTracks is excellent, too bad
they never got the point.10.
Turntables, transfer tables, drawbridges, etc.11.
Possibility to use different track textures to create
heavily operated main lines, yard tracks, branch
lines, spurs, etc.12.
Railroad crossings that are actually activated by
train, meaning that the lights start to flash when the
train is close enough. Also a support for fixed
distance crossing warning which is prototypical in
Europe. Here in Finland the crossing warning starts
when the train is 1300 yards away from the crossing,
never mind if it is a slow freight of 75MPH passenger
train.13.
95% unstable editors should be made atleast 95%
stable.That's my two cents worth.Best wishes from Finland (snowballs included):
Teemu Vehkaoja aka TVRail------------------------------------------------------------------
Martyn T. Griffin
griffinmt@mindspring.com

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-18-02 AT 01:08 PM (EDT)

1.
There is a support for DISTANT, REPEATER and SHUNTING
signals in the signal script. However these signals
must be placed behind a NORMAL (home) signal to work.
This limitation should be removed becouse it will
crash the sim if there is no NORMAL signal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Actually, signals defined as 'DISTANCE' will stand alone without the presence of any NORMAL signals. I made a set of these some time ago and they were the only signals in the route. They displayed just like the NORMAL signals, but there was no consequence if you passed one or no speed control. Why would you want a set of signals like this? I had made a small switching route to be run in the explore mode only and these signals worked just fine.2.
The signal scripts should also be able to read signal
tokens APPROACH_4 thru APPROACH_9, and CLEAR_3 thru
CLEAR_9.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The work around for this is to define eight levels of set speed and use the draw_state call to change the appearance of the signal aspects. Eight speed levels defined by signals is more than enough. But a few more signal state tokens would be nice.Hank

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Whilst we're looking for things currently missing from MSTS, how about the following:-1) Being able to conditionally approach control a signal. i.e. only when the diverging route is set.2) The ability to make something happen (signal or graphic) when a train reaches a certain point3) The ability to make something happen to a signal a time after passing a certain point. (Useful for Grade Time signals on NYC subway, etc.)4) Be able to plan the power output of a traction unit, instead of just a percentage of full power. I'm thinking of EMU's etc, where the notches allow the train to accelerate normally to a certain point and then it's down to the motor characteristic.5) How about a train brake that can be proportionally taken off, instead of having it hold until it's put to release! (This may be available as the vacuum brake does this, but not the air or EP brake!)Paul

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Always good to get your input Hank. Any new scripting projects on the drawing board?
Joe Cooney, Ocala, FL

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>4.
>Station announcements. Both in the passenger view and
>on the platforms. In the passenger view announcement
>there should be an option for creating a point on the
>tracks where the in-train announcement is activated by
>a train going in the specified direction. Trains
>traveling in opposite direction would not get this
>announcement.What about a button to press, and then the announcements will go on just like the subway trains. The driver presses a button and the passengers will be able to hear the announcement(e.g. I press the button and there is a sound, "Next Station is XXX.")-------------My favourite LUL train-------------

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Hi Gents,there are a lot of nice suggestions in the posts above, many of them I fully agree with (come to that later), but what about a MSTS which doesn't crash - shouldn't that be our first priority?
The most notable (and destructive) feature of MSTS is the 'volatile' track data-base. A RE which no longer corrupts the TDB is probably only a dream, but I would settle for a tool with which I could restore a corrupt TDB. For instance, when you get the infamous 'one-end vector one-end non-vector' message, it should be possible to remove the faulty item from the TDB and correctly put 'end'-markers on the remaining tracks. Similar actions should be available for other problems. In my opinion, if a program can report an error, it can generally do something about it. Given the amount of time and effort wasted as routes have had to be abandonned because of irrepairable TDB, I think it should be top of the list.As for the other suggestions : bring on the dispatcher!! Complex activities, with a lot of shunting and many reversal points, are often beyond the capacity of MSTS and I have had quite a few occasions when I could not finish an activity because the signals would not clear. Another welcome extention would be 'reporting'-points : a point in the activity where the signals will not clear untill you report your train to be ready, for instance after shunting or at passenger stations. Such a feature would also allow AI trains to pass.
Finally, I whish the problem with uncoupling wagons from the front of the train would be solved, and 'F9' can be used properly.Good Luck, Rob Roeterdink

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I have to agree with you. I was shocked to see they hadn't
even *touched* the program itself in this so called update.
Why can't they just upload to the file library like everyone
else?

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