Really annoying terrain spillovers

I've been working to rehab the CTSRR after its unfortunate troubles with the track database, and am in the process of going down the line and removing terrain spillovers and roadbed undercuts. These appear along the sharp cuts and fills that give the route its character, and are caused by the relatively coarse terrain grid MSTS uses. I'd really like to see some variable grid that would be much finer along the roadway, but.....Anyway, there is one place in particular that I've had to fix several times. The route at one point runs almost directly along the boundary between two tiles. The "natural" terrain along this boundary slopes down across the boundary, with the side of the mountain running parallel to the boundary. When I make the cut/fill in this location (using the "Y" key), I get a nice clean cut. However, there have been several times when I go back to run the route in the game when the terrain has popped back up to cover the track, for a length of about 50 meters and a depth of about 10 meters. I've gone back to the RE, reset the cut/embankment parameters (75 deg, 10m as the first try; 65 deg, 12 m as a second try), and I still get this spillover. I've reset the error bias to zero several times. Sometimes it pops back to 1, other times it's still at zero, but the spillover remains. I've also used the terrain button and set the elevation manually at each grid point, again with the result that the program reset the terrain to what IT wanted to see. At one point in here I rebuilt the track database, which may have reset the terrain for some reason, but that was not done every time.Does anyone out there know what causes the RE to ignore saved changes? It seems to me that this has some relation to the location along the tile boundaries, but once the terrain has been formed, why does the program spontaneously decide to change it? Is there some incantation that is needed to make sure that "Save" means "Save"? As always, help is much appreciated.Andy

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RE: Really annoying terrain spillovers, tvrail, Oct-15-02, 08:28 AM, (1) RE: Really annoying terrain spillovers, calr, Oct-15-02, 11:19 AM, (2) RE: Really annoying terrain spillovers, DRGWK36, Oct-15-02, 12:18 PM, (4) RE: Really annoying terrain spillovers, charlie, Oct-15-02, 12:14 PM, (3) RE: Really annoying terrain spillovers, calr, Oct-15-02, 12:34 PM, (5) RE: Really annoying terrain spillovers, Emu Farmer, Oct-15-02, 03:25 PM, (6) RE: Really annoying terrain spillovers, Kip, Oct-15-02, 04:11 PM, (7) RE: Really annoying terrain spillovers, LawrenceKellie, Oct-15-02, 04:23 PM, (8) RE: Really annoying terrain spillovers, DRGWK36, Oct-15-02, 07:37 PM, (9) RE: Really annoying terrain spillovers, JohnCS, Oct-16-02, 10:39 PM, (10)

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Hmm...One solution might be this: when editing the terrain, make sure that you choose "Always draw all terrain polygons". I remember this was done in the Terrain Altering Mode by right-clicking on the grid but it can be another mode. It's been a long time since I've used it.Most of the time this has been working fine with me, and I have got rid of those spillovers. It is the best way to make embankments, underpasses, etc. becouse the terrain detail actually will be the at the peak.In some cases the RE may overwrite the setting, in which case you will have to redo it.I know I did not made myself clear...

TVRail
CEO, Parkdale Western Railroad
Member of Yonder Locomotive Works

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There are a couple more things you can do.1. Go into the Route Geometry Extractor and select your route and load the quad tree. In the file menu (I think--haven't looked for awhile) is a selection that allows you to set the grid size. I set it for 0.2. Save quad tree and exit.2. In RE hit F7 to display the tile and patch grid. Select a patch (outline turns red) and right click. Click on change error bias. Change the value to 0.0. This has to be done for each square or patch.The combination of these two will give you very fine control in the area where the cursor is pointing. In some cases, too fine!.Hope this helps.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, ORColumbia Gorge Route (Blasting tunnels near Lyle, Washington)

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Cal - thanks. That should help a lot in other places, but I'm having a devil of a time figuring out why I make changes, even manually using the terrain tool, but they still return to their unedited configuration after I've saved them.I've changed every tile's error bias at least once and probably more, since they, too, tend to revert to 1 if there have been any changes. Some of them are worse than others, and I haven't figured out the details on that either. I usually place the camera on top of the area I'm changing, select a patch, change the error bias to 0, click on the sky, and save. I then move to the next patch and repeat. A long, tedious process, and one that I have to repeat periodically because save doesn't always mean save. There's probably a reason for why it's the way it is, but there definitely are times when I'd like to get my hands around the throat of the guy who designed that particular part of the program.... OK, I'm back to being calm again. Thanks for the tips.Andy

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LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-02 AT 12:17 PM (EDT)

Andy,I agree, very frustrating that no matter how many times you edit something out, it pops back. Many times the terrain error bias will revert to the default 1.0 simply when you select the terrain editing tool, without having actually touched anything.I have at least a dozen places on the Silverton Branch that have the condition that I believe you are describing. The condition is always associated with a blue tile boundary; many times in wireframe mode this condition will be evidenced by a vertical displacement (either positive or negative) just at the terrain nodes along the boundary. Hand edit this out, save & everything looks OK; the next time you are in the editor, it's back. As you know, you can do this till you're blue in the face.I have been able to get some of these locations to remain stable after hand editing. Luckily for me, all of my troublesome blue boundaries are at locations where the track crosses the boundary at some angle, so that the area affected is limited in length. The way that I have been successful is to make changes not only right at the blue boundary, but at additional terrain nodes at least 16 meters on either side of the boundary. These changes should be substantive, that is to say at least 1 to 2 meters in elevation. Some experimentation may be required... regards,
charlie(edit: Just noticed that I owe you an e-mail, will do.)

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One thing that I think happens. I seen this several time when laying down terrain texture. If you do a terrain edit and then move out of the tile without saving, sometimes the changes get lost. I try to keep the habit of saving immediately after each change. Sometimes I get lazy and it bites me in the butt!Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, ORColumbia Gorge Route (Blasting tunnels near Lyle, Washington)

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Hi Try clicking a 10 mtr track section and drag it around your terrain and put it a bit below the surface with your H key and mouse and then hit Y,I get rid of all my bad bits like that, as I think what you see is not what is alway there and I close a lot of my seams like this, Frank

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I had the same exact problem myself of terrain spilling over after repeatedly fixing and fixing with no avail. As Calr said, sometimes if you save after making the adjustments...then...move on over to another tile the terrain will not change. I have gone back into Hoodoo Pass several times after I have done terrain changes when laying track to find that all the work I did was reversed...after saving...but, it seemed to be isolated within the tiles' boundry because the other tiles weren't affected when saved together. So, when I adjust terrain I save before I move on and use F7 to see where the tile boundries are to keep track. I tested this theory once and it seems that was the case. Adjust terrain bias did work in some cases, but not all. It's a pain when you have to re-do alot of things, but you gotta adapt I guess.Kip
3DTS Route Developer
3dtrainstuff.com
The Priest River Railroad "...it's so fictional, it's almost real"
PRRR Wesite Coming this fall: PRRR's Hoodoo Pass Route

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See http://www.railpage.org.au/steam4me/trainsim/tutorials/cutting.html bottom of page.When I get home, I'll look at some archived material I have for some more information.Lawrence

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Thanks, Lawrence. And thanks to everyone else for the ideas as well. I'll try 'em out and see what happens. I'm hoping I can post the updated route as soon as I'm done, although we've had some problems with our net connection this week, and "technical difficulties" may hinder the upload.I'd post a couple of screenshots of the problem area, but again, connectivity difficulties are getting in the way.Andy

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Charlie pretty much nailed it. At certain tile boundaries the sim overwrites the terrain with the lower resolution (mipped) data in the _e.raw file. You do have to hand edit out to the next adjacent terrain point in those places.One proposed solution (I haven't tested) is after hand editing the saved location try deleting the _e.raw files for those tiles, then let the sim rebuild, which might grab the more accurate settings.

JohnCS
dem_ex@hotmail.com
visit the DEMEX website:
http://www.dem-ex.com

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