Route Rating

In the MSTS forum, a post was anchored stating that they plan to promote a route rating system. The rating system would only apply to routes. The proponents of this plan say this is to encourage and motivate route designers to produce a better route. And then they released a poll which floats below it.It is my intention of this post to voice my objection and why.The Route Building community has always been a community where ideas, knowledge and vision has propelled us to create utilities and routes in and for an unfriendly environment, MSTS. While other members of the train community are able to escape the bonds of MSTS, we pretty much are stuck with a finicky and at times, an unstable system to create routes. We all know that route building is perilous and that a simple moment can ruin months worth of work.In the early days, folks clammored for routes even if they were undone. So routes have been uploaded incomplete. And we all know that a route is never really complete anyway. While we can say that at times it is reasonably done, the book is never really closed.Our fellow brethern is asking for a route rating system overseen by 10 people with at least two months experience of route building. Can anyone seriously understand the complexities of building a route and understand the frustration of route distribution with so little experience? I for one wouldn't want to be a part of an evaluation team even with my own experience. While to many I may seem to have some finesse with route building, many times I depend on the experise of others to help me create what I do. Just the other day I posted several pictures of Build 10 where I credit a number of people and their efforts without recognition to myself. www.edmfamily.com/msts/bo5a.htm To me, route building is a team experience. I need folks to help me whom are totally indispensible, and some of them create their own routes too.To me, ratings mean judging. By what standards is a route to be judge? Bill Burnett and Jim Ward have created routes completely unlike mine. Would I be happy if a panel of judges favorable to a Sea View route based their opinion of my route based on their personal bias? I know I wouldn't appreciate that. And if they are to dispense constructive criticism, wouldn't that also lend itself to lean towards a personal bias? What if the new routes are compared to my routes? I would not like that at all. My routes were uploaded share my work. It is not my desire to have my routes pitted or compared against others. I want others to make their decision for themselves if they prefer my route. Frankly, I'm happy if they are just like my route period.Many folks from overseas help me out. You'd be surprise to find out how international the development people are to Ohio Rail. Yet these same international folks don't have the same availability to very useful tools like DEM, like we do. Would their efforts be less rewarded or more greatly because of this lacking? There's just no means I can see that an equitable means of rating a route can be decided.Finally, I really don't understand why such a decision was made without us, the Route Designers, input. Why does the post and poll show in a forum where we may frequent, but why not here? I believe it was with poor planning, with poor thinking that an idea was haphardly hatched and borne to be implemented without much consideration to the people it would affect. And do I want my route to be judge by the same people who showed this little sensitivity and a desire for mine or your input?I have asked Nels that if this idea be continued that my routes be removed from the file library. This is not a grab my toys and go home sentiment. Rather, when I uploaded my routes there was no mention of such a plan to rate routes. It was never my intention to have my route rated by any rating system. My only reason for uploading a route is to share the route. And then if folks in the community want to create a post of what they like or don't like, that's fine. But establishing a criteria of judging when there isn't one, and then put a rating to it, I'd much prefer my emailers who really care enough about what I have done to write to begin with, take it up with me personally.Thank you for your indulgence.Rich Garber
Ohio Rail
East Metro
Number 11

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: Route Rating, sniper297, Aug-06-02, 00:26 AM, (1) RE: Route Rating, MikeSimpson, Aug-06-02, 00:38 AM, (2) RE: Route Rating, sniper297, Aug-06-02, 01:06 AM, (3) RE: Route Rating, Hobart, Aug-06-02, 01:07 AM, (4) RE: Route Rating, sniper297, Aug-06-02, 01:34 AM, (5) RE: Route Rating, rgarber, Aug-06-02, 01:39 AM, (6) RE: Route Rating, cdntrains, Aug-06-02, 01:51 AM, (8) RE: Route Rating, zhivago47, Aug-06-02, 01:55 AM, (9) RE: Route Rating, davidbeach, Aug-06-02, 01:42 AM, (7) RE: Route Rating, jleslie, Aug-06-02, 07:43 AM, (11) RE: Route Rating, patm41, Aug-06-02, 07:10 AM, (10) RE: Route Rating, rgarber, Aug-06-02, 09:32 AM, (12) RE: Route Rating, Tree Frog, Aug-06-02, 11:12 AM, (13) RE: Route Rating, sniper297, Aug-06-02, 11:34 AM, (14) RE: Route Rating, rgarber, Aug-06-02, 12:16 PM, (17) RE: Route Rating, ronzuk, Aug-06-02, 11:52 AM, (15) RE: Route Rating, tulloch, Aug-06-02, 12:14 PM, (16) RE: Route Rating, DKlemm, Aug-06-02, 01:58 PM, (18) RE: Route Rating, rgarber, Aug-06-02, 02:30 PM, (19) RE: Route Rating, DKlemm, Aug-06-02, 03:15 PM, (21) RE: Route Rating, woodbrdge, Aug-06-02, 02:34 PM, (20) RE: Route Rating, LawrenceKellie, Aug-06-02, 03:56 PM, (22) RE: Route Rating, sniper297, Aug-06-02, 05:04 PM, (23) RE: Route Rating, jfroth1, Aug-06-02, 07:29 PM, (24)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

Well, I'm starting my own rating system, for most idiotic ideas. I give this one a 10, it makes the most hair brained schemes I ever came up with look positively brilliant in comparison. I think he'd have more success measuring exactly how high is "up".

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hi Rich and Jim,As the two people who would appear in the top 3 or 4 of my favorite route builders, I could not agree with you more. I have been working on a steam route ever since MSTS was released, it will never be finished, it will never be released, and I would never consider trying to judge other peoples routes.There can be no real criteria for comparing various routes, some people only like accurate representations of real routes, some like routes based on real routes but modified to allow greater scope for activities and others like fantasy routes like Seaview.As for your query, Jim, How high is up? It is the same as the length of a piece of string.

Mike

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Great, all he needs is that piece of string and he'll be all set. And waddya mean, "top 3 or 4"?! PO&N is #1, Ohio Rails is #2! Takes care of THAT rating system, who needs a panel, I'm "De Judge" around here!
Seriously, "will never be released", that's one of the problems with comparing one route with another for that elusive "quality" rating, guys like you don't think your routes will "measure up" to the others available, so you never post them. Somebody somewhere in the world has tastes similar to yours, and would be absolutely THRILLED with your route and think it was the greatest thing ever. But if you never upload it, he'll never get to see it. Ands you never know, could be hundreds looking for a route like yours, warts and all. I'll have to hunt back in some previous threads, Bill Burnett took a lot of convincing to finally upload Seaview, and was absolutely astounded at how popular it turned out to be. He actually hadn't considered uploading it cuz he figured nobody would want a route like that! I have a lot of fun on it, altho it's not my number one favorite route (PO&N is, obviously, since that's made according to MY personal tastes), but it is my son's favorite, so I'm glad we talked him into uploading it.
I've downloaded every route in the file library and tried them out so far. Finished or not, clumsy or skillful, I've found at least something on every single route that made it interesting and different from all the other routes. Smorgasbord!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

What a Lame idea. I say deep six it along with the little voting polls that have popped up lately

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-02 AT 01:35 AM (EDT)

I think he took your suggestion, Hobart, maybe there's hope for this kid!
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/11247.html

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Yep, they dropped the idea. All's forgotten. Thanks once again for you'alls indulgence.Rich Garber

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Thanks for your kind words their sniper and others.Last time I checked, I wasn't a kid!? but feel free to have your own opinion as always. (I don't really see why this has to be made personal? Sure you can have your own opinions but is that warranted? Have I in any way made it personal towards you or others? I feel I've been very cordial with all you guys and have respected your opinions..)This was just my opinion, my proposal, and NOT macster or Nels so DON'T ask them about it..I'd just like to let you know that I was acting in good faith and with good intentions with this idea and NOT looking to boycott or put down the route designers out there!! (it's too bad it was perceived in that way..)Now moving on to better things.. cdntrains "must be trains in the blood"
gifs by Chris Denbow, who was not associated in any way with this proposal

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hi Jim,A bunch of us on the forum convinced him this was not the way to go.......I think his heart was in the right place but head wasn't........Ratings suck, period........you can't rate something like a route, a reskins, a model, whatever........the tastes are too diverse..........I even hate the ratings given in shareware download sites because I have found some very nice programs given a three rating at Tucows and some lousy ones given a five........Everyone is different..........I have just about every route in the downloads section and there are parts in all of them that I like and some I don't but I couldn't possibly say this is better than that........Depends on what you like to do in MSTS........Seaview is awesome, but I don't use it because I am into reality more than what this delivers........but it is incredible and very well done........
This would only cause all kinds of flaming and criticism and cause more people to not upload their routes.......People like Robert Reedy, who wasn't even going to upload his anyway until others convinced him too........Hell, I love his route.......with the rating thing he probably never would have uploaded it........
Nope, what we need is a better method to describe what each route contains, whether it is fictional or not, whether it is for passenger service or Freight hauling, whether it is for fun or work......etc. etc......that would be of much more use to us all.......
Anyway, my two cents worth...........No ratings of anything! Just stirs a controversy and we don't need any more of that........PS.........Ohio Rail - 1, PO & N - 2.............Just kidding!!!!
Rich paid me to do that.........no, kidding again......lolTim
The Spur Line
http://tahunter.net/thespurline
Appalachia RR - Midwest & Rocky Mountain RR - ADFRR Route

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Best thing to do Rich, is never visit that forum. The signal to noise ratio has been so low each time I have checked, that this is the principal forum for me, plus keeping up with the traction, cab, and sound forums.Rate a route, heck I've been dabbling for a year now and finally think that I am underway with mine. How the heck you and some others have had time to get to release 10 on a route is way beyond me. If mine ever gets to the point that I am satisfied with it I will release it. Anybody that trys to tell me what I should have done differently will be ignored, except perhaps to point out to them that they can modify it to their heart's content - and those will be the type of people who ain't got a clue how to do the modifications. On the other hand, the people who show up with a better grain elevator, lumber mill, brick factory, WSU campus, Clearwater River bridge, Potlatch Creek bridge, NP standard station as modified for use at ..., or other such useful items will be welcomed with open arms and a prominent (though appropriate) spot on the route.Nobody who is qualified to begin to pass judgement on anybody else's routes would have any interest in doing so. So it will either collapse for not finding anybody to do the ratings, or the ratings will be totally meaningless. In either case it is not likely to have much sticking power.Those who can build routes, those who can't gripe about the lack of the route they want to run and try to place orders for custom routes, to be delivered next week, " 'cause I'm tired of running what's there and I can't get the RE to work (only tried once and that was enough)."David Beach.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

My sentiments exactly. The "other" forum kinda reminds me of the card table you set up for the kids out in the living room when you have freinds over for dinner, with this forum being the adult table. Not to say that everyone in here always acts like adults tho...Jeff Leslie

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I agree with you on this ,, As my own route (The Casino Express) is fictional ,, how could it be rated?? With Transrapid trains that are above street level, running across the desert... I dought one person in this forum has even seen the real train!..Patm41

Maglev Route Designer
Casino Express

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Not to beat this dead horse but I need to clarify that I reacted to the rating route idea because it came across that it was endorsed and sanctioned by Nels. The thread was anchored to the top of the forum and had Nels and Macsters name included as principal parties to the idea. It was the thread being anchored that gave me to think this was 'offical.' The fella cdntrains, told me aftewards that Nels had nothing to do with it. And apparently from what I learned later, the thread itself was just a suggestion, so I'm clueless why it was even anchored. Certainly folks are allowed to express an idea and I have no problem with that but like I said, using Nels, Macsters name and anchoring the thread made it look offical to me.Rich Garber

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-02 AT 11:13 AM (EDT)

Just relieved that this well intentioned, really bad idea has bit the dust. Bill Burnett

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Well, I'll add to this a couple good suggestions that came out of this:From lespom:
"Sorry to jump in so late on this one, as a newbie here I might be out of order but maybe if we change "Rating" for "Classification" there might be something in it. Having access to a broadband connection allows me to download at will, but I feel for the guys on dial up who download a route and find it's not what they want even though it's well put together. Rather than rate the route lets classify it.The sort of things I'm thinking of are:Location
Era/Genre
Type (mainline, switching etc)
Level of detail (signals, MP's, scenery etc)Perhaps include some information on what minimum spec platform is needed to get a certain frame rate, sounds a bit vague I know, but as a user with a PIII 500 some routes tend to "chug" (my fault, should buy a faster machine)."
Even better, from CSX_Jim:
"If you want to help route developers, put together a beta group that is willing to work out all the bugs prior to the route being uploaded to the file library.Or if your intent was to help the members as a whole, put together a group that finds all those files that are needed for activities and aren't included with them. Put them on a page where users can go and download them without having to search through the file library. You could also do this for all the 'additional' files that are needed for some of the routes and which aren't included."The first part of that bears repeating, "put together a beta group that is willing to work out all the bugs prior to the route being uploaded to the file library". Most route developers work alone, have only so much time to test, and only one system to test it on. A group of SERIOUS beta testers, dedicated bug hunters with good computer skills and a working knowledge of the route folder structure, could go a long way toward removing mis\*.*takes from new routes before the huddled masses yearning to breath free even download them. Lespom's idea could be incorporated into this, additions to the description on the downloads page that the author might otherwise forget, including whether or not it requires Xtracks. You wouldn't need a rating on how difficult/easy it is to install since some of the computer savvy people involved could hammer the kinks out of that before it was uploaded, so all routes would be easy to install.Something to think about.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

The first idea from lespom is good. Nothing wrong with that as long as someone doesn't try to slip in a 'backdoor' rating down the road.The second idea... it's good and all... but I have to say that alot of folks volenteered to beta build 8 who never gave back any feedback. In fact, I still haven't heard from some of them. I think beta to some folks means 'early give me.' If you could find folks who are really serious and understand that beta is for testing and not just running, that would be great. I'd also think it would have to be a pretty determined group since they could easily get backlogged. Doesn't hurt to try though.========================I'm still wondering if the impetus behind the route rating had something to do with bandwidth. I can't help it but there is still this nagging idea that you put enough routes up there the size that a route can become, how long are routes to be kept that are no longer downloaded? Surely this has got to becoming an issue. Keep in mind I have no idea how much a server is alloted to store files, and as many routes that there could be, and not run into storage capacity problems.What I do is ask Nels for my older versions be removed. I figure this is helpful for Nels and helps me because older version of routes I don't want to have to support.=========================Call me paranoid but I am still curious as to the reasoning behind this idea popping up in another forum, being anchored, and then tossed out out the blue like it was without seemingly any route developer knowing anything about it. It just makes me (yes I'm being paranoid here... and loving it... ), wonder if there is a problem we are not being made aware of. I say this because in a recent email exchange with someone critical to all of this, the words 'largest downloads' was used.Just thinkin' out loud is all *points to smoke* Rich Garber

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I second all.... Happy to see it died.. 'Nuff said from me.. Ron ZukoskiDeland, FL

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-02 AT 12:14 PM (EDT)

A route rating idea...."some strange person comes into bowl, it is a route rating ball. Bounces, the batsman hits it, it is a big hit, SIXXXXX, and out of the ground. That was a crappy peice of bowling by the bowler...."How can you rate a route which might be 15km of track with no detail at all? Thats what I'm planning on doing (I'll do better versions when I can) it is a line in Sydney on the Main Southern Line (c.k.a. Main South) between Glenfield and Campbelltown. The reason it doesn't have detail is, I'm new to the route building game, and don't have any modeling programs. I plan to ask people to see if they want to help, and I have track plans to work from.If you wish to work on it contact me at tulloch_cars@hotmail.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I'm late on this as I was gone all weekend and I figure after my comment I'll be getting a phone call from Rich!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : )As a long term route builder, I started with the IC route currently out July 27th, 2001 and the first attempt prior to being able to put DEM in was in June of 2001. Thank you again JohnCs! So I feel I can state my opinion.I'm not totally against this, if it is for rating how easy it is to install. Mine may be the most difficult and I know that. I think letting a newbie know how much he is biting off when installing a route is ok. Of course I don't like to be criticized anymore than the next guy and while I have some reservations about being judged, certain things would be nice. For example;1. how easy to install
2. prototype or freelance route
3. time period of route
4. number of miles
5. sceniced percetage.I can't believe Rich, Sniper or anyone would have a problem with these. Except for number 1, they are not subjective and even number one could be made objective with some rules. I.e. has an install bat or not.My .02 cents here.

David Klemm
Illinos & St Louis Divisions
IC Version .8 uploaded

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LOL!!! BTW.. David... what' that phone# again???Here's your homework David, lots of reading to do:http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=11237&forum=DCForumID3&omm=0http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/11247.htmlThose items you listed, I think some of them were already proposed elsewhere and there has been no objection thus far.I would modify 1 to be 'what type of installer' rather than ease of use. Alot depends on the person doing the install.Rich Garber

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Rich;You mean I'm not on speed dial! I glanced through most of the threads, though not reading every word, so I'm glad to see other people think like me! : )I like your working on install method.

David Klemm
Illinos & St Louis Divisions
IC Version .8 uploaded

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

If this site goes to a route rating system, then I will simply not upload my route for scrutiny. I am creating the Erie Railroad for my own personal knowledge and satisfaction. The route is accurate in some areas, and in others I have taken a few liberties to enhance operations. Since this is my first MSTS route it also has mistakes that I have made as I learn how to use the RE. Why should I go through all this trouble to have someone who has spent absolutely zero time in creating or contributing to my work trash it with a low rating because it is not accurate or perfect enough for them?This is a poor idea and should be shelved. I will simply make my routes available through my magazine and website, bypassing the route rating all together. Any other route builders who would like to have their routes distributed in this fashion, please contact me at the web site link below. My magazine will not judge or rate the routes it highlights. The magazine will be distributed on CD-ROM, solving the problem of huge downloads.BTW, over on Auran's site (Trainz), they use a rating system for their routes. I have found that some routes are over rated and some are very under rated. That in itself demonstrates the subjectivity of a rating system. We all have different standards of what we are looking for in a route. However, the rating affects the downloads of the routes. It also probably turns off beginning route builders who receive negative ratings for their first routes. That results in no more routes being uploaded to the site. How unfortunate for the train sim community. Currently they only have about 75 layouts or routes available for download. That's pretty low, especially for a program that has an easy to use route editor.--Woodbrdge
Train Simulation Modeler Magazine
http://www.trainsimmodeler.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

An interesting thread(s).Regarding Auran's (Trainz) rating system, it is a user rating, rating the item from 1-5. The rating is then averaged, and the average is shown when a person examines the item in preparation for downloading. I must agree with Woodbridge that it is less than motivating. I created a building, which I thought was pretty good (or course), and it received dismal ratings; probably because of its absolutely unique look, and nothing to do with the model itself. The rating is mostly done, I would suspect, based on the picture of the item, not on the actual use of the item.On the other points in this thread, I must agree with the others here. There are some objective indicators which would be good to have, as has been listed above, but this is different than a "subjective" rating.I wonder how the locomotive creators would like a similar system for locomotives? ::thought just in passing::Fortunately for route creators, this idea was halted. But I do think that some of that objective information could be included in the description that you see in the file library. That would be quite helpful for the person downloading. Of course that would be up to each and every route developer to include that information. But I think that if it is included, so that the potential user can read some of that objective information before downloading, this sort of idea may never come up again. Lawrence

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Hee-hee, I know what you mean, Rich, when you hosted the signal beta from PO&N5 for me I never got any feedback on the signals at all. I dunno if that meant nobody who downloaded it found any problems, or nobody downloaded it to try it! That's why I specified SERIOUS bug hunting beta testers. Theoretically they take every file that's uploaded, scan it for viruses, and test the extraction to make sure it unzips without any "corrupted file" errors, but that's as far as they go. The installation is never tested, so there's no guarantee it will even work at all. I can take only 9.5 megs at a time in my mailbox, but I have had some route developers send me their routes in chunks so I could put together an install batch for them that worked correctly, and made a quick test run in wintersnow, night, and spring to make sure there were no missing files. (Didn't do that for Seaview, obviously, since it's only supposed to be run in the summer sunshine!)
I know freeware is as is, no guarantees, use at own risk, Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here, but since computers come pre-assembled/set up/configured for internet access these days, a lot of people downloading don't understand the concept. So even having somebody to test the little beggars and kick them back if they don't work ("Route Buddy" is an infamous example cluttering up the utilities section) would be nice, even if they couldn't spare the time to help the uploader with fixing them.LK, the loco designers don't need a rating system, the number one loco of all time has already been established.

It just depends on who's doing the rating!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

As just another sidewalk superintendant who develops neither routes nor models nor repaints, I must first state my minimal contribution to the forums, save to encourage all the very creative individuals here, and occasionally provide data or photos to assist those more skillfully creative than yours truly.(I will, however, occasionally serve up a snide aside for the deserving dolts )That said, I believe my timing was remarkably 'impeccable' as to be one of the initial respondants to the infamous cdntrains' (don't know his real name; his profile indicates his moniker is two periods??) post regarding this rather toasty subject:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/11237.html#3I did not take the time to itemize each and every objective item in the above post; the purpose was to respond quickly to what I thought was an idea totally stuffed with guano and suggest an alternate and useful course. A few other individuals handily expanded on the database theme (cybersky, lespom, csxjim, perhaps others), as noted by Jim above. It surely should be expanded and implemented.It's my opinion that the effort expended by those of you who build the routes deserve a dedicated link on train-sim to a descriptive narrative, database, and LOTS of screenshots to *Showcase* your efforts. This would be a viable, useful, and unbiased tool for all to peruse.And before my soapbox collapses, I salute you all - Thank you! Your creative ability continues to amaze me. Thanks for sharing your work with all of us. I sure appreciate it.Besides which, I truly enjoy your humor, camaraderie and unique personalities evidenced in your posts Now if only I could build MSTS stuff using Word, Excel, etc...John Roth

Alert | IP

[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | File Library ] Copyright © 2002 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.