Don't need no steenkin' markers

Markers are nothin' but trouble, and now we don't need no steenkin' markers,

shows a better way, almost paint by numbers.Determine the lat/long of the corners of a subtile, find those locations on a topoquad drg or other suitable map. Then capture that image. Once you have a bmp of the map image, skew it so that it becomes square, trim it just the area in question, then scale it to be 512 x 512 pixels in size. Save the bmp and make an ace. Then use the ace as your terrain texture.Piece o' cake.David Beach.

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RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., SharkNose, Jul-06-02, 08:05 AM, (1) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., flarrfan, Jul-06-02, 08:40 AM, (2) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., DRGWK36, Jul-06-02, 08:50 AM, (3) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., timken, Jul-06-02, 10:56 AM, (4) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., davidbeach, Jul-06-02, 01:52 PM, (5) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., JohnCS, Jul-06-02, 03:09 PM, (6) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., MikeSimpson, Jul-06-02, 06:58 PM, (7) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., davidbeach, Jul-06-02, 08:34 PM, (8) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., MRRextreme, Jul-07-02, 01:53 AM, (9) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., Macster, Jul-07-02, 02:50 AM, (10) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., MRRextreme, Jul-07-02, 10:59 PM, (13) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., CaptFuzzy4, Jul-08-02, 03:29 AM, (16) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., Smooz, Jul-07-02, 05:04 PM, (12) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., Macster, Jul-07-02, 11:29 PM, (14) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., Smooz, Jul-08-02, 02:53 AM, (15) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., Macster, Jul-08-02, 05:30 AM, (17) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., KeltikSylk, Jul-08-02, 09:53 AM, (18) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., bobs, Jul-08-02, 08:55 PM, (19) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., wp713, Jul-09-02, 04:02 AM, (20) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., Smooz, Jul-09-02, 11:47 AM, (21) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., KeltikSylk, Jul-11-02, 08:45 AM, (27) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., MRRextreme, Jul-09-02, 01:17 PM, (22) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., davidbeach, Jul-09-02, 03:47 PM, (23) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., DNJ, Jul-09-02, 04:12 PM, (24) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., davidbeach, Jul-10-02, 08:48 PM, (25) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., Macster, Jul-11-02, 05:19 AM, (26) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., KeltikSylk, Jul-12-02, 04:17 PM, (28) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., KeltikSylk, Jul-12-02, 04:44 PM, (29) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., JohnCS, Jul-12-02, 06:58 PM, (30) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., davidbeach, Jul-12-02, 08:32 PM, (31) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., JohnCS, Jul-12-02, 09:14 PM, (32) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., davidbeach, Jul-13-02, 00:33 AM, (33) RE: Don't need no steenkin' markers ..., KeltikSylk, Jul-15-02, 08:55 AM, (34)

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That concept has been bubbling in the back of my brain for some time now, but I couldn't figure out the details. Good work, David! I'll have to give it a shot.- Andrew

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Even simpler was my method...when I couldn't get marker files to work, I just used tree blocks to mark lat/lon locations where the tracks needed to go. I'm off in a few areas because I stuck with default curve sections rather than hassle with exact dynamic track curvature, but the effect is satisfactory for the ambience I'm striving for in my 95-mile prototype route.

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Pretty clever! That'll help with rivers, road, buildings, and everything else that shows up on a topo. I'll have to give it a try.Andy

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Hi David,
Good idea, I imagine you could also use terraserver images to help placement this way. You can switch between topo and aerial photo, back an forth there.I tried to email you this morning, with the following info you need. Got error message instead. Copied, less email, below this.The orange lines are logging lines that fed the SVRR. It would be
interesting to include some, but not really necessary . Or, they could go
short distance and disappear into the woods or hills. If I include any, it
would be either the Curry branch, south just west of Boulder Gorge, and the
lines out of Whitney going south and west. The map ends at Bates. The RR
went on another 10 miles or so to Prairie City, SW of here. That part was
abandoned in about 1933.Now if I can just convince Fozzy to build one of the ex Uintah 2-6-6-2's
that Sumpter used!SteveThe original message was received at Sat, 6 Jul 2002 07:46:26 -0700
from sun-pdt-3.oregontrail.net <66.201.128.19> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<davidbeach@,,,,,,,,>
(reason: can't create (user) output file) ----- Transcript of session follows -----
procmail: Couldn't create "/var/spool/mail/davidbeach"
550 5.0.0 <davidbeach@.......>... Can't create output

Steve T.

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-02 AT 01:53 PM (EDT)

Actually, saying "piece o' cake" may have been a slight exageration, as it is a bit of work, but some software wizard out there could turn this into something much easier. The two biggest problems are finding the exact corners of the subtiles, and then finding those exact locations on the map image.John CS, if you are reading this, in what format does the quad tree save the corners of the tiles? Are the tiles uniform enough that the subtile corners can be derived simply by subdividing the whole tiles?One thing that I forgot to do, which is also a problem with using maps to generate markers is that the map uses one datum and the terrain uses another and I didn't adjust the locations. John CS, would it be possible to have an option in DEMex that would allow the terrain to be created in NAD27, or give the equivalent NAD27 corners?Once the area is outlined on the map, and the outline will be trapezoidal, the proceedure is fairly simple, if a bit tedious.I used AutoCAD to view the image, allowing me to scale it and draw lines in known locations. I don't have PSP or Photoshop, at least not yet. Given the 512 x 512 limit of the BMP used by MakeACE, I just used a screen capture of the outlined area as the initial source BMP. I use a handy-dandy little program, Sinfo, that includes many screen capture options, including outlining the area to be captured and saving the image directly to a file. Then in windows Paint, I skewed the image to turn the trapezoid into a rectangle. Then I cropped the image to just the outlined area, in paint the easiest way seems to be use the attributes to set the size of the BMP to where the lower right corner should be, then rotate the image 180 degrees and do the same again. Then the image needs to be scaled so that it winds up being as close to 512 x 512 as you can get it, I always slightly oversized it (integer percentages only in paint, can't hit 512 exactly in most cases) and then trimmed it to 512 x 512 and rotated it back to upright.Those images started out a test1.bmp through test8.bmp and then test1.ace through test8.ace. Doing it for actually building the route, I will need to find a better naming convention so I can keep track of them. Based on the time stamps, I finished test8.ace 32 minutes after I finished processing test1.bmp. The image setup took a while, but there can be hundreds of these little cells on one map image.Anybody have any ideas how to automate this process?David Beach.

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I have no idea what format the quadtree data is saved with, DEMEX derives the tile coordinates from the tile filenames (code for this is available here in the forum archives).The biggest problem with this approach is MSTS's limit of 64 unique subpatch textures in memory at one time. Much easier to just learn how to use markers as others have been able to do IMHO.

JohnCS
dem_ex@hotmail.com
visit the DEMEX website:
http://www.demex.vcn.com

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Hi David,Have you tried TS-Tools at http://ts-tools.com ?This gives you the ability to import a .jpg of a map and to trace the railbed and contours into your route, then do the terraforming for you.It was designed for UK use as there is no free DEM data available there, but can be used anywhere with suitable maps.Mike.

Mike

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Mike,I have developed my own procedure for creating markers by tracing the quads. Found that trying to keep track of which marker was which was a pain, and then there is that marker shift problem. Yards, riverbanks, stream beds, street layouts, and the like would seem to be easier to put together working on top of the map rather than having to work with markers. Makes getting that first piece of track aligned correctly a whole lot easier than trying to align it between two markers which are too far apart.David Beach.

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I don't use route markers either. I have been using this method since last year. I make a one-sided parallelogram object the size of a world tile and texture a map to the object. And use the wireframe mode to lay track. The object has to be a parallelogram to properly line up with DEMed terrain. There are some example pics below.

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http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d27d725417b2d7f.jpg

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d27d75441da02a1.jpg

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Wanna make a tutorial to this process???? Sounds like a kick @$$ idea!It'll make my Wenatchee/Oroville and Wenatchee-Tacoma route go a hell of alot faster also, meaning, I can release sooner! Hehehe

Brian E. Bundridge
Seattle, WA USA
BN Wenatchee Oroville Route

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If I get a chance, I will. I am basically doing what David does but only I apply the map as a texture to an object. My technique would probably be better as an output of TStools

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Please do make a tutorial on this, I haven't had a bit of luck trying to get my marker files to work, hell, I can't even get MWP2MKR to even work!!
I'm doing pretty decent with the terraforming,(finally), but getting started with the rest of it is being a real bear.If you do write a tutorial, and it includes pic, screenshots, etc., please don't write it on Microsoft Word 97, I haven't been able to get any images from a single tutorial written in that.I could definitly go for something a bit "easier", it's taken me a good 2 months to get the hang of MicroDem and DEMEX. lolOh well, enough ranting, you got a good idea there, go with it!!

R.E.: Down, but not beaten

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Yesterday, I posted a response in this thread, and today it is not there. Anyone know what may have happened to it?Smooz

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Sorry, I accidently deleted, thinking I was replying to a quote. Really sorry man...

Brian E. Bundridge
Seattle, WA USA
BN Wenatchee Oroville Route

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>Sorry, I accidently deleted, thinking I was replying to a
>quote. Really sorry man... Why not immediately post what happened, instead of allowing it to go by? I would also guess, not knowing the software of course, that if you had of hit your "back" button, you could of at least recovered the text of what I said, and reposted it.Smooz

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Believe me, I tried everything, but by the time I realized what actually happened, I already logged out, I was meaning to send you a offline - private message to you directly on what had happened, but some other things came up and wasn't able to do so. Once again, truely sorry for this error.

Brian E. Bundridge
Seattle, WA USA
BN Wenatchee Oroville Route

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This is great!!!I've been wondering about this ever since I saw the draw tool in RouteBuilder (the one that always says "I won't work on compressed tiles"...Considering the hassle I'm having with trackwork this is a godsend...I'll look into it right away, I'm not crazy about getting the trackwork "sort of close"...Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company





<www.KelticSylk.com>

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Now there's an excellent idea! Good one, David! It has drawbacks like everything else, but it beats trying to aim for those silly flags!Bob Siederer
Co-author of Marias Pass 3.0

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Don't accuse me of being the voice of reason, but... The person responsible for creating the marker file program sure takes a lot of guff from everyone here. Personally, I think the marker files work great except for a few things. The year that the markers are set up for can't contour to everyone's plans for one. And when it puts the markers in water areas, that's a problem too. But with just a few fixes, the marker program could be excellent. So again, great job for creating a program out of interest, instead of greed. (Jm2cents)
(Wp713)

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Mac. Don't delete this this time!!!!As long as the DEM and DRG files you get for this process are of the same datum, the markers lay perfectly according to terrain.This is what I use. Use DEMEX to build the terrain. Use MicroDem to create a waypoint GPS file from the DRGs of the terrain. Use the utility in the file library for converting waypoints to marker files, and viola! You're done.I created markers for a 130-mile route in about 2 hours, including roughing in several yards and sidings. Not a problem. And since both the DEM and DRG files are of the same datum, the markers are correctly placed.Oh, and the entire process costs....$0.Smooz

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My first marker files were created by transcribing coordinated from Topozone maps to files, etc...Philly to Harrisburg...LONG tedious process.Then I read the tutorial on MakeMarker. Now I use the MicroDEM waypoint function. BUT...I've tried to download the MakeMarker utility several times. However, all I get in a search is the tutorial...So I've been using Excel to shuffle the waypoints around the way I need and then editing the unicode text to fix what I can't in Excel. Short tedious process.Was the utility deleted, or do I need to learn how to spell? Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company





<www.KelticSylk.com>

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I don't understand your comment at all.
<<The person responsible for creating the marker file program sure takes a lot of guff from everyone here. >>
Not one post has commented on the capability of the marker program. What people are commenting on is their ability to follow the markers once the markers are placed in the RE. Everyone knows the marker program is excellent for getting the markers into the RE. How easy it is for some to follow the markers in the RE is a completely different issue.

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And then when you start making markers for the edges of rivers, markers for streams, markers for roadways, markers for this, markers for that, even if all of the markers are labeled as to what they are it gets too confusing, too cluttered. Then the problem with marker shift if you edit one tile and then move to the next...Markers have their use, I'm sure, but rather than tracing the desired features off the map to generate markers, I think that I will work with map images for a while, though I am still doing some testing to prove to myself that I am getting the scaling and placement correct.David Beach.

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Its just a thought, but I think the markers were only intended as an approximate guide. If you look at the default routes the tracks are often way off. Thats how I would use them.

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<<The tracks are often way off.>>Yep, ain't that the truth.David Beach.

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I have been looking into this alot more now, seeing if I can do a test "route" using this idea. Since I have a week and a half to go before the M's are back in town, that leave me plenty of time to experiment.Funny thing is, the markers aren't all that useful as I first thought of, time consuming and frustrating, or at least my experience has been....

Brian E. Bundridge
Seattle, WA USA
BN Wenatchee Oroville Route

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I'm not sure if I followed the directions right, but I was able to pull pieces of the DLG's into the terrain...It's got me thinking that we could use the DLG's to texture the same terrain we get from the DEMs...What's more, if you use uncompressed textures while building the route you enable the "Draw" tool...The roadbed notes were added in RouteBuilder. Seems like this would have some cool applications. I'm still exporing the idea.As you can see the markers and the "map" don't line up yet...I'm still playing with the "scale" of each tile.Thanks for the insight!Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company





<www.KelticSylk.com>

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Once you match the tile size it works a lot better!!!You don't have to "Determine the lat/long of the corners of a subtile, find those locations on a topoquad drg or other suitable map".I pull the entire quad into Paint Shop and then crop out all the parts I don't need. I then use the deforamtions tool to skew by 16 degrees. I use 16 degrees because that appears to be the angle DEMEX is set to for this section of the country.Then I set the grid in Paint shop for 128 pixels, which matches the bigger tiles in Geometry extractor. These are the ones that divide into the four smallest 32 pixel tiles. I going to experiment with bigger tiles, might speed things up a bit....I then cut each square in Paint Shop to a seperate bitmap and convert it with MakeAce. It then becomes a texture I can insert and use.All the info is right there in Route Editor, rivers, buildings, highways...You can see it lines up well with the markers. It's probably more exact, unless you zoom way in when using "waypoint".This is an awesome tool! Thanks again for the tip.Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company





<www.KelticSylk.com>

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Umm... Can you say 64 texture limit?

JohnCS
dem_ex@hotmail.com
visit the DEMEX website:
http://www.demex.vcn.com

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John,I wouldn't ever try to have the whole route mapped at once, but even 64 textures per tile allow a quarter of a tile to be mapped at a given time (ok slightly less because you still need terrain.ace). A generally linear route probably wouldn't need more than 30 textures to lay the track across it, maybe another group at a different time to do the water courses. Lay the map textures ahead of the work zone and take them up behind the work zone. The real trick will be to use a naming convention for the map textures so that you can pick the right texture for the location, multiple times over the duration of the route building if necessary.David Beach.

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Thats fine David just as long as you actually understand what the limit is. It is not 64 textures per tile, its 64 textures in memory. RE will load the next adjoining tile before it dumps the prior one, so you're potentially looking at 5x5 (25) tiles in memory at a time.

JohnCS
dem_ex@hotmail.com
visit the DEMEX website:
http://www.demex.vcn.com

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Ok, I didn't realize exactly what the limit was, although I really see it as being less of a problem here than it would be in trying to do a really detailed route with custom textures along the track route. Thinking back on the images you posted months back with cuts and dirt roads along the track using textures, you must have run into a real bind...David Beach.

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64?I'm having enough trouble juggling the 9 that actually appear as numbered on the screen...9 textures (depending on the tile size, something I'm still playing with) is quite a bit of real estate. Ideally you would work on that small section until it was complete, scenery objects and all,, then move on 9 more tiles.I'm still working out the details, trying different tile sizes, etc...
Right now I'm still working with markers and map textures together to check the accuracy and consistancy.Frank Musick
Lehigh & Atlantic Railway, Canal Navigation Company





<www.KelticSylk.com>

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