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rgarber (1314 posts)
Feb-28-02, 04:05 PM (EST) "Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" The development name for the route, Bodiddly is no longer necessary. The release name, Ohio & West Virginia Railroading is because the route represents two railroads. New route names are also replacing the previous railroad names too. The WV&O replaces Ohio Valley Central because the route will be extending east rather than west. And to expedite the release of the route and to not incur any delays or legal situations, the W&LE was dropped and Jason Roberts (former W&LE engineer) offered the Ohio River & Northern RR as a replacement name.The website has been changed to reflect the new changes. The maps are down to be replaced soon. The pic pages will be replaced with pics displaying contributing authors objects. Pic pages will be added once engines are skinned to reflect the roadnames. The Progress Link page is alive and well displaying two of the three meets that took place during testing.Contributing authors please note: Please check the Oh&WV page for the listing of your name. This page is still being updated and I would like this page to represent as accuately as it can, your efforts.For y'all asking questions like can the route handle a long train, please see the current pics. I chose these test trains just for you! www.edmfamily.com/msts/index.htmOh yeah, this route was DEM'd using the method described in the DEM Tutorial (since the question has been asked by email a few times).Rich Garber Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... LawrenceKellie Feb-28-02 1 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... rgarber Feb-28-02 2 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... LawrenceKellie Feb-28-02 3 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... rgarber Feb-28-02 4 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... QueenHeartles Mar-01-02 5 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... rgarber Mar-01-02 7 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... LawrenceKellie Mar-01-02 8 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... LawrenceKellie Mar-01-02 6 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... rgarber Mar-01-02 9 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... LawrenceKellie Mar-01-02 10 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... rgarber Mar-01-02 11 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... LawrenceKellie Mar-01-02 12 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... rgarber Mar-01-02 13 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... LawrenceKellie Mar-01-02 14 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... rgarber Mar-01-02 15 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... LawrenceKellie Mar-01-02 16 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... rgarber Mar-01-02 17 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... LawrenceKellie Mar-01-02 18 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... rgarber Mar-01-02 19 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... lnghairedwizard Mar-01-02 20 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... JohnCS Mar-01-02 21 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... LawrenceKellie Mar-01-02 23 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... LawrenceKellie Mar-01-02 22 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... rgarber Mar-01-02 24 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... Motley24Crue2 Mar-01-02 26 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... QueenHeartles Mar-01-02 25 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... Boweavel Mar-02-02 27 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... 1802ta Mar-02-02 28 RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR... QueenHeartles Mar-03-02 29

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LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Feb-28-02, 07:49 PM (EST) 1. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Wow! That's quite a list of people how have helped you. How did you remember them all.Oh, chemical is spelled wrong on that page after Paul's name.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (1314 posts)
Feb-28-02, 08:15 PM (EST) 2. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" That's correct Lawrence. Alot of people have offered their help in various ways. Some of whom which have uploaded objects like Bjorn Centergran, whose bridge is so gorgeous I still marvel at when I see it, and it makes my route neat to drive, at least for me. Other folks have offered their creative help. And others have provided through their own research, links or have talked to me by phone how railroads interface with industry. Other folks like Jason Roberts, a former W&LE engineer have offered their expertise to make sure while the route isn't real, it still resembles a prototype. All in all, there have been a great many contributions to this effort for which I am thankful and grateful and this is one way I wish to show that.
Richard Garber
Thanks for pointing out the spelling error. BTW, you spelled who wrong. You also left off the question mark after the end of your last sentence. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Feb-28-02, 08:57 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Some even spent an entire day helping you, didn't they?(Happy? The question mark is there! )Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (1314 posts)
Feb-28-02, 09:39 PM (EST) 4. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Quit with the coy crap. To whom does this 'some' (i.e. plural of folks) are you referring to that spent a whole day helping me that I avoided giving credit to? The names please or is this another one of your deceits you are trying to pull again.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
QueenHeartles (30 posts)
Mar-01-02, 04:30 AM (EST) 5. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Rich you do such a fine and wonderful job there will aways be at least one person who can't stand to bask in your greatness!good work!Queen Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (1314 posts)
Mar-01-02, 08:18 AM (EST) 7. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Thanks Queenie! I really do love the route building stuff. I do think its the 'extras' folks offer that will give the routes diversity and eventually the unique look I think we all would like to see from all the routes. I'm ready to be done building this one though (til the expansion anyway). I eventually want to do of my own objects and repopulate the route with them to give more the era look I'm shooting for.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Mar-01-02, 08:25 AM (EST) 8. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Sorry, but that is not what I am doing. I agree, Rich does a wonderful job of route creation.I have no idea how long you have been reading, but there have been cyber wars fought because people did not give proper credit. Rich has gone out of his way to make sure that every person who has helped on Bodiddly has been given proper credit. This is admirable. I am certain that any ommissions are strictly accidental, and he would want to take the responsibility, as he always does, to give proper credit to the person(s) that he missed. Rich is a very moral person. He lives by a much higher standard than many--and that is good.He has also made a point to point out the unique attributes of the above upcoming route. And some of those unique attributes were based on the assistance of others.Rich also knows that since he started this thread, anyone who responds to it, regardless of the response, is Rich's responsibility. He has maintained that point of view for some time; and therefore is someone is not happy because of what Rich wrote, I know that Rich will take the responsibility to make sure the person is happy.So, its not a point of not standing to "bask in his greatness." He is great. He does good work. And he has made great contributions--have you seen the number of tutorials/guides he has written. Incredible.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Mar-01-02, 08:17 AM (EST) 6. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Well, Good Morning.Coy? No. Not being coy.Plural? There is a device used in writing or speaking that has been given the name "editorial we" or "royal we." This is where a person who should have used a singular pronoun uses a plural one. We see it more and more today with the movement towards "he" not being allowed as a generic pronoun. Therefore, "they" is used instead--whether referring to one person or two.So then, let me give you some hints. DEM. MicroDem. DEMEX. XYZMerge. Start of BodiddlyAny idea yet????Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (1314 posts)
Mar-01-02, 08:41 AM (EST) 9. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" nope Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Mar-01-02, 09:16 AM (EST) 10. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Well, just give it some thought. Think about the person who sent you e-mail after e-mail containing instructions on how to use DEMEX, MicroDem, XYZMerge. Think about how the instructions included graphics showing the screens and what to do. Think about how the person even downloaded the same DEM, built a mock Bodiddly, so that you and that person would be doing the exact same thing at the exact same geographical point. Think about how you had been hand modeling the terrain until that time, but after all those e-mail you had DEM modeled terrain. Think how you wrote, in the vein of Scotty in the Star Trek IV movie, There be mountains (hills) there! Think how hard you thought DEM terrain modeling was until all those e-mail; then you realized how easy it was.So, if you don't have any idea after thinking on these points, well, I guess that goes to prove how mad you really are at that person and that out of spite you are not giving that person due credit, as is the practice in the Train-Sim community.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (1314 posts)
Mar-01-02, 10:32 AM (EST) 11. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" You are in error.First, the website is a listing of those who contributed directly to the route through their own research, or their own personal experience, or if I used their property. This was not something they asked me to do nor am I required to do, this I did out of gratitude.Second, that which you refer, was something you did for your own behalf. At the time, you were doing your own DEM tutorial which you later dropped. What you did was done for your own convienence in instruction and not to further the Bodiddly project. The latter happened by coincidence. Your own words were to the effect, you needed me to have an understanding of the process before you thought I could understand what you had written. I applied the DEM I downloaded to the tiles. None of which you say you did was incorporated into the route.Third, to that which you did contribute was unabashedly given due and proper credit in the pages of the DEM Tutorial I wrote. Furthermore, the proper and due credit for what you did was annotated on my site in its proper place. And, in posts here within this forum on more than one occaision, proper credit and praise was more than amply given for that which you did do.Lawrence, if you looking for the praise of men, may I suggest you promote what you did do (like the DEM Tutorial), and not so much the efforts of others?
Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Mar-01-02, 10:42 AM (EST) 12. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Boy, am I glad I was corrected. I was losing sleep over this.Well, Rich, you and I both know the truth of the matter. Until I worked with you on how to use DEMEX, XYZMerge, MicroDem, sending lots of e-mails back and forth, explaining the nuances, if it hadn't of been for that, you would not have DEM modeled the terrain for Bodiddly at that time, maybe ever. At that time, you were modeling by hand. You did not understand the process. I spent many hours helping you directly working on Bodiddly. If that is not a "contribution," then no one else contributed to it.This further shows your lack of living up to that high standard of responsibility that you so aptly condemned me about not living up to.Again, you and I both know the truth in this matter.After being married to the same woman for over 25 years, I still forget that she is often able to see things for what they are better than I am. Last night she stated, "Tell him that he isn't worth it, and don't bother with him."You have a masterful way of twisting every issue for which you need to take responsibility into someone else's responsibility.Credit is due where credit is earned, and you have earned the right to be named the great responsibility dodger.Good luck in your future non-responsible endeavers.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (1314 posts)
Mar-01-02, 11:17 AM (EST) 13. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" No, I have no need to lie to you or anybody else on this matter Lawrence. If I was in such a need to create this air of deception, it would be just as easy for me to go in and rework the DEM Tutorial site and take your name off of it. That hasn't happened and you are more than welcome to look.As I stated before, your acknowledgement of the process has been fully documented in the tutorial, on the site, and within this forum. If what you say were to be true, I should be listing everyone here at train-sim as well. After all, some of their help was just as beneficial to me if not more so than the DEMs.
DEMs is just one aspect of the route. I enjoy the DEMs, and they are neat. But my fascination has always been with signaling and my interest in doing DEM is for an end, not a means.And have you forgotten both your apologies for your treatment of people here at this forum and your deceptive email trick where you misled me into thinking I was responding to a email from Fozzybear? Let's not forget those before you start pontificating this masquerade of yours. If you like, I'll post the emails where you tell all.Lawrence, I know what is going on here. This is merely a continuation of the fight in private you wish to take public. You know, it's the one where the last email I sent to you I said you was a jerk. That still fits you by the way. Your real goal of this is to continue the fight while you hide behind this claim of neglect.Fight is over Lawrence, let it go.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Mar-01-02, 11:25 AM (EST) 14. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Interesting isn't it how when you use certain phrases and words in a message to me, I apologize. When I use the same words in a message to you, you call me a jerk.Interesting isn't it that when I made that apology (which both the messages and the apology were in public) you refused to accept or even acknowledge that apology.Interesting isn't it that when you write something to which people object it is there responsibility; but when I write something to which people object, it is my responsibility.Again, you have the masterful ability to twist everything to it being someone else's responsibility.So the question comes to this, Do you deny that I provided invaluable help, which if not provided may well have meant that Bodiddly would have had all hand-modeled terrain? Do you deny that?Come on. Time to take some responsibility for a change.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (1314 posts)
Mar-01-02, 12:40 PM (EST) 15. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" !!!!!Train-sim newsflash!!!!!Reporter: We interrupt this thread to break in on this new development in the Kellie vs. Garber courtroom drama case.Courtroom horror erupted as the defendant was hauled in before Judge Jim Ward (alias: the hangman's best friend) on charges of fraud, embezzlement, and willfully denying Kellie's place of fame at the All Aboard train site hosted by the defendant. *camera pans into the stunned packed train-sim courtroom* Captured live and in progress (those with slower modems may miss a word or two by keep trying to listen by pressing F5).Perry Longyhairwizard Mason approaches the bench while the scouring glaring prosecuting attorney steps back from the defendant after asking the incriminating question to the defendant.Perry Longyhairwizard Mason: Your honor, my client was not read his rights before his sorry carcass was dragged in here, we would like a....Judge Jim Ward: *yelling* SORRY BUTT is right! Worthless EMRR route wouldn't exist if it wasn't for my PO&N route. *turns to defendant crying on the stand* ANSWER THE QUESTION YOU SCOUNDREL!!! *flashes girlfriend picture in defendant's face* Remember her?? *mischievous snort**raucus laughter from the courtroom**slamming of the gavel* QUIET in the court room!! QUIIIIEETTTT!!!!! *members of train-sim community sit in hushed silence as the profusely sweating defendant nervously answers*Your honor. Honorable host. Members of the galley and courtroom. And honorable jerky prosecutor. *met with glowering glaring firery stare from the prosecuter*I catagorically state that with or without DEMs, the Bodiddly would have progressed to a completed state!*shouting and storming the stand as jerky counsel leaps before the judge screaming* YOU HONOR!!! THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT ANSWER!!!! HE CAN'T DO THAT!! HE'S TWISTING AGAIN!!!! I DEMAND JUSTICE!!!*guards holding back the stampede, women feinting, Thomas the Tank engine crying, Perry Longyhairwizard Mason shaking his head back n' forth*Judge Jim Ward: *chuckling to the baliff* We'll have him hanging from a tree before lunch at this rate. *baliff chuckles*Defendant: If I may continue. The question puts to me means I should also include my third grade teacher because without her invaluable help, I wouldn't know how to write to the plaintiff. I mean it's so stupid. Nobody likes him here anyway. *nod of approval from watchers* What he saying is all of us will have to acknowledge his input into all our routes just because we read his posts. That's totatlly absurd. So my answer is the plaintiff is a mental case if there ever was. So I deny that Kellie was an invaluable help to the Bodiddly *feinting in the galley*. I deny that his so called 'input' made the work any less mine than it is now *screaming and mass hysteria erupting from galley*. And I will continue to deny through the annals of history, a place for his name ON THAT PAGE!!! His name stays where it is, on the DEM TUTORIAL page! *bands playing, crowds cheering, tickertape parades galore, galley parades off with the defendant asking him questions about the new route*Baliff: Well judge, looks like you won't get that hanging.Judge Jim Ward: *frowning* Well, all's not lost. There's always PO&N 6, Revisions Are Us. I'll get his scraggily butt then.*gavel pounds* Case dismissed.reporter: And that's live from train-sim com... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Mar-01-02, 01:49 PM (EST) 16. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Thank you for clarifying the question.Again, you make absurd gratuitous assumptions."I catagorically state that with or without DEMs, the Bodiddly would have progressed to a completed state!" I never said it would not have progressed to a completed state. What you *know* is that without that help you would not have had DEM modeled terrain (at that time), though you may have had later. On your Web page are the words "is a collective effort of the many who frequent and participate." I am stating what you know. And your attempt at parody will not deny the fact. I provided, using your words, "effort" in assisting you with your understanding and working ability of DEMEX, MicroDem, XYZMerge, and the DEM to terrain process in general."jerky counsel leaps" Interesting in all this, where you are acting the part of the responsible party, that is, one who takes responsibility for your actions, that you insist on name calling."...include my third grade teacher because without her invaluable help, I wouldn't know how to write to the plaintiff." I never said you should include your third grade teacher. Another gratuitous assumption and absurd statement."What he saying is all of us will have to acknowledge his input into all our routes just because we read his posts." And another one. I am not saying that. You started this thread--remember when I started a thread and you declared that whoever responsed in whatever fashion was my responsibility?--by stating "Contributing authors please note: Please check the Oh&WV page for the listing of your name. This page is still being updated and I would like this page to represent as accuately as it can, your efforts." I contributed *directly*. And since you are mad at me, even to calling me names, you feel that you do not have to take responsibility for the fact that I *did* contribute. Then if that wasn't enough, you added, "this route was DEM'd using the method described in the DEM Tutorial." Who helped you understand the process so you could create the DEMed terrain which Bodiddly had?"I deny that his so called 'input' made the work any less mine than it is." Another absurd assumption. I never stated that the work was "any less mine {Rich's} than it is." There have been many cyber wars (if you please) here over people who have provided tangible input into a product and then not being given credit for their "efforts," to use your word. Just as a skinner giving credit to the work of those who proceeded him, all I am asking is that credit be given for the "effort" that I put in.And another, "Nobody likes him here anyway. *nod of approval from watchers*" A rather broad allness statement to make about over 6000 people who are members of this forum. Again, a misrepresentation of the facts, one which you need to take responsibility for, as you have demanded of me. But, we already know that you don't have to live up to what you expect of others, don't we.So, your response was cute, I grant you that. Though hardly a parody masterpiece.Further, of the questions I asked in the previous post, "Do you deny that I provided invaluable help, which if not provided may well have meant that Bodiddly would have had all hand-modeled terrain? Do you deny that?" you only answered one part.Now, I am providing you with your words, found on the Dem Tutorial page, "My current route in development, the Boddidly RR, I thought would have DEM data too but like most others, the thought of including DEM data was intimidating. However, thanks to DEM guru Lawrence Kellie help in showing me how to incorporate DEM data into the Bodiddly RR, but it was easier than I would have ever thought!"You *now* deny, you will be denying your own words, that I provided help? You may disagree with the word "invaluable," but you cannot NOT deny that I provided you help. Your own words state that fact. Your words, Rich. Your words. So, how would you characterize the point that you were "intimidat{ed}" by including DEM data, but after I "help{ed}," by showing you "how to incorporate DEM data into the Bodiddly RR" that you found it "easier than I {Rich} would have ever thought"? How would you characterize that?You denied that I was invaluable help, which your above words seems to contradict. But not the part about it meaning that it "may well have meant that Bodiddly would have had all hand-modeled terrain."I find it hard to believe, Rich, that your dislike of me is so intense that you will resort to outright lies about the help I provided. I spent a considerable amount of time in e-mail exchanges with you. I rewrote messages so you could understand what was happening. How excited you were when you finally got DEM-modeled terrain. And now, since you dislike me so, you twist the facts into nonsense.Well, as in any court case, the two sides are saying opposite things, and it is up to the "jury" to decide who is telling the truth.Your non-answers just prove that you do not live up to the standard that you expect of others.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (1314 posts)
Mar-01-02, 02:39 PM (EST) 17. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" You seem to be under the assumption had it not been for you, there would be no DEMs in the route. That is and may not be the case. If you will look back in the archives I posted Kern Pegg's DEM tutorial long before I started the Bodiddly project. I had that tutorial available for the purposes of learning DEMs when the time came. Learning DEMs was not a high priority at the time. As it has been noted, the route was 1/3rd completed when you asked me to proof your own tutorial work. It was only out of courtesy for having proof read my works prior that I reluctantly agreed. There are many things at the time I did not tell you. I was already knee deep in projects; the Metro's. I didn't want to learn DEMs with a route already started. But, I thought it would be in bad form to say no to you so I agreed to proof the tutorial you wrote. If you must know, at the time I thought you were a real drag asking me to proof something while I was working on the route. Soon thereafter when the tutorial proofing wasn't going good and you wanted me to get a hands on approach with DEMs, I was very apprenhensive knowing I could lose the whole route because of it. And I did. I had to start all over again. When I start a route, my goal is to get it done, not to become a guinea pig for who does what. I had no guarantee at the time that you weren't wasting my time. Like I said, you were given full credit for what you did. You're not happy with that, that's just something you'll have to live with. Say all you want, make all the accusations you want, get as legalistic as you want, the bottom line is you helped me to learn the process of adding DEMs to a route. I took that information myself and applied it and even added my own enhancements to it. And there you go right there. Your technique didn't include the tic tac toe part. Because it still wasn't clear enough. Just like I answer questions on the forum here, just because I do, doesn't make it always clear enough that someone doesn't do likewise. I adapted your process so it would work for me. And there's alot your leaving out. For instance, much of the process was not fine tuned til you learned many of the pitfalls that could befall someone doing different DEMs. So if you think about it, you are trying to take full credit for which was a joint effort. And if I'm not mistaken, I sort of remember you sending an email to JohnCS and Dr. Guth some questions you had. Here's a true story. I helped my son do a project a couple of years back. I walked him through it every step of the way even pushed a few things here and there. I didn't tell him to go to school and tell the teacher that his father did it. He went to school taking full credit. According to you, I should've.Now for some constructive advice. Since you are so upset by my actions. Like you said, you got the DEMS, you do your own Bodiddly! And then you can take full credit, yell it as far as anyone will listen, and then your success will overshadow mine, and this will be long forgotten.
Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Mar-01-02, 03:31 PM (EST) 18. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Thank you for the cogent remarks. Much more understanding and communication took place in your last post, then in the previous attempt at parody. Thank you.You are correct in that I certainly do not know everything that is and was happening in your life. That is a given, just as you don't know everything that is and was happening in my life.Thank you for also admitting the following, "the bottom line is you helped me to learn the process of adding DEMs to a route." Your admission of a clear fact, one which you yourself wrote about, elevates you in my mind's eye. I appreciate that. Thank you.Here again, unfortunately, is a misstatement of facts: "So if you think about it, you are trying to take full credit for which was a joint effort." I have never stated that I want full credit. I have used the words "help," "assist," I even used "invaluable help." None of those words imply or state that I am trying to take "full credit" for that which was a "joint effort." I never stated that I wanted all those names removed and my name only to appear there. Again, you misrepresent the facts.However, on your Web page, you state that Bodiddly was a "collective effort." You also state in your last post, "the bottom line is you helped me to learn the process of adding DEMs to a route." So the question remains, if Bodiddly was a collective effort and you are listing those who made that effort, and the bottom line, as you state, is that I "helped" you to learn the process which allowed you to present Bodiddly in its present and future state, just as Mark Ratledge, Nick Fitzsimmons (Nickf), Richard Lamp, Mike Rector, etc. helped you, why, except for the fact that you are so mad at me, is my name not included?You see Rich, you have a very serious deficiency: You refuse to take responsibility for the errors you make, and you insist that others must take responsibility for not only their errors but for other people's errors. You also, when an apology is presented, refuse to acknowledge or accept it. Why is that, Rich?You, interestingly enough, used the word "legalistic" regarding my actions. And yet you are under such a rigid structure of pride and arrogance that you cannot admit that you made a mistake, nor can you accept an apology when one is offered.However, I do thank you for resuming the discussion with a more mature tone. As I stated above, your admission of a clear fact, "the bottom line is you helped me to learn the process of adding DEMs to a route," elevated you in my mind's eye.Thank you.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (1314 posts)
Mar-01-02, 04:12 PM (EST) 19. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Lawrence,I'm tired of this little game you are playing. I didn't admit to anything. I've been saying the same thing all along. But I do concede you have raised an issue that needs to be addressed.I take it you are dissatisfied because you feel I have not acknowledged your work in regards to the developmental project Bodiddly on my site. I liken your claim as if a locomotive person feels his work has been uploaded without his permission. So I am hereby removing the Bodiddly from public dispersal until this matter of copyright is rectified. The WV&O project is now canceled. I will not release the route until I am satisified all parties are happy with the situation.I ask that the community speak to this situation after carefully reviewing the conversation in this thread.I will place a post in the forum where the community can voice its opinion. It's not my place to arbitrate whether you have a claim to copyright. I will make my statement there.You think you can just launch into people when you please. You attack people, you make up these lies, you cause them heartaches and all to soothe your sick ego. And then you think with a little more legalism you think you can make it go away. Well sir, I'm not so easily pacified with your lame response. I am so sick of the way you do things around here. We'll let the community decide what's right and wrong on this one. I hope by the end of it, you are gone. Mr. Kellie or I am for I have nothing but utter disdain and contempt for you. As far as I'm concerned you are an embarrassment to this community. I will not have my posts or my website, or my route a continued bullseye for you to troll to make trouble.Now you deal with this tone. Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
lnghairedwizard (740 posts)
Mar-01-02, 05:13 PM (EST) 20. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" RE: Rich Garber to Lawrence Kellie: "You attack people, you make up these lies, you cause them heartaches and all to soothe your sick ego. And then you think with a little more legalism you think you can make it go away. Well sir, I'm not so easily pacified with your lame response. I am so sick of the way you do things around here. We'll let the community decide what's right and wrong on this one. I hope by the end of it, you are gone. Mr. Kellie or I am for I have nothing but utter disdain and contempt for you. As far as I'm concerned you are an embarrassment to this community. I will not have my posts or my website, or my route a continued bullseye for you to troll to make trouble."Perry Longhairedwizard Mason to Courtroom: "Yes folks it looks as if Lawrence Kellie could be the Devil himself and I intend to prove just that, that he is, indeed, the Devil!PerryLonghairdwizard Mason motions to Bailiff: "The people would like to enter into court evidence at this time, Exhibit A." A picture is worth a thousand words.....Your honour?.....I rest my case!!!
LHW Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
JohnCS (319 posts)
Mar-01-02, 05:29 PM (EST) 21. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" LOL!!!-JohnCS
DEMEX
http://www.demex.vcn.com Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Mar-01-02, 05:32 PM (EST) 23. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Thanks for the chuckle. I never noticed that before. Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (1456 posts)
Mar-01-02, 05:31 PM (EST) 22. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Again, you misrepresent the facts. But first, let's look at the story about your son in your previous post. Let's add some facts to that story which will put it closer to what is happening here.Let's say that your son, on his own volition, decided to list those who contributed to the project. Let's also say that he didn't list you. Would that be right? *That* my friend is putting the story of your son as this situation is.Regarding admitting. Sorry, but you are again stretching the facts. Making the statement "the bottom line is you helped me to learn the process of adding DEMs to a route" when before you had been saying or implying that what my help via those e-mail was not "help" certainly is admitting!Also, you state, "I've been saying the same thing all along." Again, no you haven't. You have denied, in your attempt at parody, that I provided invaluable help. Then with the bottom line statement, you say I did help. Now whether you want to characterize that help as invaluable or not, using your own words, it did help you in "adding DEMS to a route."I want you to understand something very clearly. Your choice to suspend Bodiddly was your choice. It was your choice, Rich. I did not force you, coerce you, manipulate you, threaten you, or any other form of force, into you making that decision. During this entire discussion (thread), you have had the choice to continue (by responding) or not (by not responding). This time, your little tricks of making someone else responsible for your decisions will not work.Remember when I started a thread and you told me that everything that was written in response to that thread was *my* responsibility--as if I had forced those people to write what they did. Well, this is the very same thing. So, why don't *you* take responsibility for your actions. Instead of foisting the decision off on the community, take responsibility for once. And now, instead of taking responsibility for this thread, you start another one that you will refuse to take responsibility for.And again, a misstatement of the facts. "It's not my place to arbitrate whether you have a claim to copyright. I will make my statement there." Do a search on the page of this thread. *YOU* are the only one who has used the "c" word (except for my quoting it above). I have never stated that I have a claim to the "c" word. Again, you missrepresent the facts. You play around with words, putting words in other people's mouths (fingers to write with). I did not say that.Your statement, "I have nothing but utter disdain and contempt for you," is quite clear, and has been for several weeks, since the initial attack you made in the following thread: http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID6/3684.htmlYou have tried everything you can to make me mad. But, Rich, I am not mad. I have not attacked. You have. You have attacked with misrepresentations of the facts, name calling, refusal to accept apology, and more. Over what? Over the fact, as is shown in the thread I reference above, over the fact that YOU claimed I had made certain statements which I had not. And when I pointed it out to you, you then, with rudeness, condescension, and name calling, rejected any thing that I said--even to the point of not even acknowledging that I had apologized.Then, in private e-mail, after I used the same words on you that you used on me in that thread, you again started with your name calling.You have again and again written to me in e-mail about responsibility. Yet, this is a case where the pot is calling the kettle black. You refuse to take responsibility, you refuse to admit that you may have made a mistake.Well, again, you have made your decision of what you are going to do. I do NOT take responsibility for that as it was a decision that you did NOT need to make. I never made claims of "c" word, I never stated that Bodiddly would not have progressed to a completed state, I never said anything about your third grade teacher, I never said that you must acknowledge me because of posts here in the forum. You are the one who brought this up by posting that you had listed the names of those who had put an "effort" into Bodiddly. What I *am* saying is if that is your criteria, then certainly the amount of time I spent with you so that you could have DEM modeled terrain on Bodiddly should certainly be considered as "effort." After all, that "effort" is viewable every inch of the way!You say that you know what I am doing. Sorry, again, that is a misrepresentation of the facts. I am not attacking you. None of this need to have happened if after the first time that you realized who I was writing about (see above), you had of said, "Oh you know, you're right. You did put an 'effort' in it." I wouldn't have even cared if you listed my name or not.But instead of doing that, you continued on with the anger you have had at me because of the thread that I listed above.I have not attacked. In fact, in all of this, I have been quite calm. On the other hand, you have called me jerk, you have declared your contempt for me, you have misrepresented the facts--even to the point of saying, "Nobody likes him here anyway. *nod of approval from watchers*." So, who is living up to that level of responsibility that you so pointed wrote about to me?But at this point, it would certainly take a lot of "crow eating" to admit you are/were wrong. I realize that, and so will many who reads this. But Rich, each and every paragraph, word, sentence, character that you typed in writing those misrepresentations was *your* decision and *your* responsibility.And now, instead of taking responsibility, you foist it off on the community, deploying a degree of blackmail/extortion to get your way.Why not just take responsibility? Wouldn't that be easier than declaring that if we don't play the way *you* want us to, then you will take your toys and go home!Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (1314 posts)
Mar-01-02, 06:44 PM (EST) 24. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Lawrence,I've been busy working on the route but I saw you added another post, so let me restate briefly:First, your name is still not on that page. Go ahead and look.Second, I still think you are a jerk.Third, no I didn't read your last remarks it would take too long.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Motley24Crue2 (392 posts)
Mar-01-02, 07:37 PM (EST) 26. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" nice file size... 666 hmmmm .... any Connection? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
QueenHeartles (30 posts)
Mar-01-02, 07:33 PM (EST) 25. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Being new here,maybe I can put this is a new perspective.Mr. Kellie – I can understand the frustration you are going through regarding “acknowledgment” of what you perceive to be your contribution to the BoDiddly route that Mr. Garber has constructed. I can also understand the fact that you believe this omission is rather intentional, because of the fact that you and Mr. Garber have had “flamewars” in the past. Mr. Garber – I can understand and appreciate the creative effort you and others have put into your routes, objects, activities and such. Being an artist myself, I know it’s like giving “birth,” and when someone confronts you about something that they believe is wrong, you will defend “that child” until the bitter end.Mr. Kellie, you have already stated that Mr. Garber has given you some credit for your knowledge and help with DEM (among other things) on his web site and on the forum. He gave you credit for helping him learn the process thru many emails and a tutorial on his web page as you have stated. I am sure the he is most appreciative of the time and effort you took to write the emails that allowed him to do such marvelous work and to enhance everyone enjoyment of the MSTS program.HOWEVER, I have noticed some things with your Tapiola Route that has puzzled me. I do not know if you have a web site from which you also announce your creative properties and give credit where credit is due, but the .txt files in your route only make some vague reference to “the many people who assisted me in some for or another*.” Also, I have read your copyright statement** and that also makes no mention of others “intellectual property” contained in your route. Unless I am mistaken, I’m sure you did not model every 3D object in that route. Please correct me if I am wrong. Mr. Garber’s web space is a PERSONAL web page, and there for he has total and exclusive control to put anything he wants on it. I have read the web page and I have noticed that he gives you credit in several instances. Look.. here’s the URL http://www.edmfamily.com/msts/demtut.htm and your name is mentioned no less than 2 times in a very small page. He has given you the credit that you are due (no doubt it is also somewhere in the file that Mr. Garber sends out). He HAS shown his appreciation for you knowledge and effort in helping him understand the DEM concept, as I am sure he has given you thanks for your understanding of MicroDem, DEMEX and XYZMerge. I do not think you can take partial credit for the start of the “BoDiddly” route because, as mentioned before, Mr. Garber was one third done with said route by the time you offered your expert advice on the matters discussed here.As a matter of opinion, this entire argument could be construed by some people as a “copyright” issue. You are in effect claiming the route is partially your “intellectual property” by stating you were there at the conception. Mr. Garber is unfortunately doing the one thing that he MUST do in order to protect HIS “intellectual” interests in this route by not releasing it until the matter is concluded. This is not blackmail or extortion of any type or by any means. Mr. Garber is doing what, most likely, any lawyer would advice his client to do in this situation. Yes, it hurts the MSTS community as a whole, but it protects the copyright of any and all that contributed, and if that in FACT includes you, your interests are being protected by this move. Yes, it is his decision to not release the route, but it is for all contributors’ protection.IF IN FACT Mr. Garber’s expertise is solely because of your help and guidance, I am almost positive that he would give you credit where credit is due. He has acknowledged your expertise in the aforementioned platforms. He has given you the proper credit on his web site for that expertise. I see no reason for you to “demand” that your name be put on the creation of the BoDiddly route. The knowledge you gave him helped him create the route but the intellectual property known as “The BoDiddly Route” is not yours. I have stated previously that I have read the web page with the acknowledgements on it and you are the only person who has made mention of the omission of their name. I see no reason that you should be included in the “credits” any more so than you already have. When I paint a portrait I do not give credit the company that made the paints or the brushes. They are merely tools I use in which to create. I do not give outward and public credit to my wonderful art teacher because she laid the basic framework that enabled me to paint the portrait, because the work is truly my own.You have contributed to the knowledge of the aforementioned platforms, and that credit has been given. The “BoDiddly” route is Mr. Garber’s intellectual property because the work is truly his own and he has given credit to those who contributed to his original thought.Queen
* Lawrence Kellie’s file ID.DIZ for the route known as Tapiola -
Tapiola--A Finnish Dream is a fictious line
based on historical data from the 1800's and
current rail operations in the area.
Version 1 of Tapiola--A Finnish Dream.
You need all 7 files before unzipping.
This is file 1 of 7.
Thanks to the many people who assisted in
one form or another. Requires 250 degree
tracks to be installed at 241, 242, and 243.
Lawrence Kellie (lawrence@calacreek.com)**Lawrence Kellie’s Copyright and Distribution Statement for route known as Tapiola
Copyright and Distribution
This route is released as Freeware. Copyright (C) 2002 Lawrence Kellie. As freeware you are permitted to distribute this archive subject to the following conditions. Please respect this wish
- The archive must be distributed without modification to the contents of the archive. Redistributing this archive with any files added, removed or modified is prohibited.
- The inclusion of any individual file from this archive in another archive without the prior permission of the author is prohibited.
- No charge may be made for this archive other than that to cover the cost of its distribution. If a fee is charged it must be made clear to the purchaser that the archive is freeware and that the fee is to cover the distributor's costs of providing the archive.
- The authors' rights and wishes concerning this archive must be respected.
- Finally, enjoy. Distribute it wherever you want.
Lawrence Kellie Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Boweavel (1508 posts)
Mar-02-02, 04:23 PM (EST) 27. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" WOW..... Go away for a day or 2 and look what happens .. Queen heartless pretty much said what i wanted too but a lot better than i ever could have Rich.. Dont let dear Bodiddly sit and gather dust over one Lawrence..I mean its obvious he helped.. but yeah.. Bottom line is the Bodiddly would of been finished regardless of lawrences help or not... get a grip is about all i can add....
Catchya Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
1802ta (238 posts)
Mar-02-02, 09:13 PM (EST) 28. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Gotta agree with Bow. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
QueenHeartles (30 posts)
Mar-03-02, 03:42 AM (EST) 29. "RE: Bodiddly RR update: Bodiddly RR is replaced by Oh&WV" Thank you very much! "And the meandering of the queen continues for another day..." Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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