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"HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM"

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romerails (27 posts)
Dec-10-01, 05:57 AM (EST) "HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" I have just spent over 8 hours trying to work my way around a new problem with the editor. If a couple of you could help me confirm that this bug is not just limited to my personal copy of MSTS I would appreciate it. If it can't be resolved it may have dire consequences for some future route building. Sorry for the long post.THE PROBLEM:I was creating a route from Asheville, NC to Spartanburg SC --- the Saluda Grade route. Track was almost finished and I decided to run a freight eastward from asheville. When I got to Hendersonville - about half way, all the terrain dissapeared along a tile border. BUT, the terrain does appear in the editor and works fine. I created an activity that goes westward and everything worked fine. The terrain remained along the same tile border aat Hendersonville. It is only when you cross this border going west to east that it dissapears. HOW STRANGE.I have spent 8 hours ruling out all other possible reasons for this to happen. There is no reason that I can find. If you build a piece of track that crossed this longitude, the terrain on the east side will dissapear if you try to program a west to east acitivity. But you can cross it east to west as much as you like and it works fine. What the heck is going on here?To rule out my terrain extraction, I created a brand new route that only covered this latitude, only about a 32 tile route. I found the latitude and tile border in question, built a 1 KM route going due east west across this tile border. When I made an activity going east to west, all was well. But when I made one going west to east, the terrain dissapeared along this border. The coordinates in question are 33.3321 / -82.469. I tried the above test northward and southward along this north/south tile border with the same bizzare results. Can someone else please try this to just ease my mind that I am not going insane or that this is not just my computer or msts install. BTW, I completely uninstalled and reinstalled msts just to be sure. PLEASE TRY THIS. If someone could build a small route from scratch to cover the coordinates 35.3321 / -82.4695 - and then put a few pieces of track running due east/west over the tile border at -82.4695. Then make two activites with just a light engine. One going east west and one going west to east. See if you get the same results as me. I have stopped work on the route, which was really looking fine until I get confirmation or a fix for this. I searched the message board and couldn't find a related problem. If someone has had this problem or knows a fix, please let me know ... PLEASE. If there is no fix, this means that it will be impossible to build any route which crosses this longitude. After 8 hours of trying everything to fix this, I have had it. I hate to think that two weeks work has gone to waist ... AGAIN. Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... bobs Dec-10-01 1 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... romerails Dec-11-01 2 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... Momocat Dec-11-01 3 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... romerails Dec-11-01 4 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... bobs Dec-11-01 6 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... romerails Dec-13-01 7 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... Hobart Dec-11-01 5 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... romerails Dec-13-01 8 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... Hobart Dec-14-01 11 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... romerails Dec-14-01 13 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... Hobart Dec-14-01 17 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... romerails Dec-15-01 18 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... flarrfan Dec-13-01 9 Saluda realism flarrfan Dec-13-01 10 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... romerails Dec-14-01 14 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... romerails Dec-14-01 15 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... landnrailroader Dec-14-01 12 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... romerails Dec-14-01 16 RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ... Chuck Dec-18-01 19

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bobs (268 posts)
Dec-10-01, 06:38 PM (EST) 1. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" I think you are seeing something I've seen before, recently. In the route editor, go to that tile that is causing problems. Get the camera up in the air a little and fly around the tile. At some point, you may see the scenery vanish, but it probably depends on which direction you are flying. Also, you may see some of the scenery floating, upside down, above you.If you see that, then select something on the tile, some object, any object. Move it a little bit and save the route, which forces saving of the tile. If you are lucky, the problem will have gone away. If not, then you may have a different problem than what I've seen. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
romerails (27 posts)
Dec-11-01, 03:35 PM (EST) 2. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" Thanks for the reply Bob. Question? Did this problem only occur with you in the actual sim and not in the editor? The tile in question already has been edited with a lot of track and terrain adjustments. It looks fine in the editor and fine if you start an acitivity on the tile or east of the tile, but if you start one west of it then all tiles east of the tile border dissapear. Anyway, I will give it a fly-over to see if I notice anything strange. We were within a month or running coal trains down Saluda Hill before this happened. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Momocat (18 posts)
Dec-11-01, 06:49 PM (EST) 3. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" Hi!Gerd Pinter found the same problem when you cross the latidude 50 degree nord. When you drive from north to south all is ok, but from south to north the landscape disapaers. Seems to be the same problem.momocat Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
romerails (27 posts)
Dec-11-01, 07:17 PM (EST) 4. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-01 AT 07:19 PM (EST)Thanks! I was wondering if there was more than one 'Vanishing Point" in the game. I am going to try to create some more short sections of track at other points along this latitude to see if I get the same result. The fellow working on the Clinchfield route will cross this point and he needs to do a test before he gets screwed like I did. This could have dire consequences for creating long-distance routes that need to cross these points. My problem longitude would prevent a Chicago-New York route from working among others. Thanks for the reply. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (268 posts)
Dec-11-01, 11:43 PM (EST) 6. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" Maybe I misread your first post, but after seeing the picture below, what I had was different. In my case, the tile was fine, it was some of the objects on it that disappeared. The problem was evident in both the sim and the editor, although it appeared differently. In the sim, as you approached a certain distance, objects would vanish. Usually there would be some flashing, sort of what it looks like when you take the camera through a building, as it passes through a wall or some other object. In the editor, not only would the objects vanish, but they would appear upside down in the air, moving the same direction as the camera, but at twice the speed. The thought is that somewhere in the coordinates for these objects, a sign got changed from + to -, or vice versa.What is pictured below is different.But equally weird! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
romerails (27 posts)
Dec-13-01, 04:32 PM (EST) 7. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" With my problem, only the terrain dissapears. All objects and tracks are there ... just floating in the air. You can still drive the route but you are about 3,000 feet up in the air on floating track. I tested with flat 'default' extracted tiles and got the same thing, so I know it isn't demex or some other problem. And of course it works fine going north (west across this 'line of death;). Hmmm? Yet another editor mystery. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hobart (50 posts)
Dec-11-01, 11:26 PM (EST) 5. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" Hey All,
Sounds like the same problem I've got. My route goes from LA to Barstow CA. The Eastern most 9 tiles of the route only work in one direction. No one has figured this one out that I know of. Best Regards
Hobart Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
romerails (27 posts)
Dec-13-01, 04:37 PM (EST) 8. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" Hey! That looks like my problem! Sorry to be so excited, but I thought I may be the only one. Evidently, they (the designers) did not test any other potential route locations and there are these 'lines of death' or 'vanishing points' throughout train-sim. This makes designing a potential route a real crap-shoot, as the only way to know whether you cross one of these lines is to lay track and run it in the editor. Perhaps we should begin making a list of these problem areas to warn other route desingers before they build into the Twilight Zone? I will look at my route later tonight and post the exact location of the tiles. Thanks for the reply. Now I know it isn't just my copy of the editor trying to make my life as a route designer a living hell! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hobart (50 posts)
Dec-14-01, 00:35 AM (EST) 11. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" Hey Romerails,
I thought that I was the only with the problem after a couple of posts got no meaningful replies. If you search through you'll find a few others. I made a test route around the bad area and found the flat virgin terrain has the same problem so you can eliminate DEMing or bad Gis data as the culprit. Someone suggested a corrupt world tile but that seemed to be a cure for a totally different problem. I'm thinking it's an internal MSTS bug that only they will be able to fix. But I Hope not. I ran my test train in the pic off the end of the track and with no terrain present they just keep right on falling, just like the flat earther's figured it would;)Best Regards,
Hobart
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romerails (27 posts)
Dec-14-01, 03:22 PM (EST) 13. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" Hey Hobart, I had exactly the same experience. If you derail a train while it is in this twilight zone, it falls forever. I also built a flat default terrain section across this area to rule out DEM problems. I agree that this is an internal MSTS bug and hopefully someone will read this and put it on the list of things to be fixed in a patch. After reading in a post below that Saluda Grade is closed again, I think I will complete this route anyway. I will just have to break up any SB activities to avoid the vanishing point. Keep me posted if you find any solution to your problem. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hobart (50 posts)
Dec-14-01, 09:14 PM (EST) 17. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" Hey Romerails,
I'm going to finish my route too, I just won't decorate the
last 9 tiles. I'll let you know if I find any solutions.Best Regards,
Hobart
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romerails (27 posts)
Dec-15-01, 03:03 AM (EST) 18. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" My problem is that Hendersonville, where my 'Line Of Death' occurs, is about halfway through my route, so it really screws up a long SB run. You could run the whole thing NB with no problem or just start SB runs at Hendersonville or split them into two activities. It will still be a pain, but perhaps a fix for this bug will arise and straighten things out so I guess I should finish it. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
flarrfan (476 posts)
Dec-13-01, 06:55 PM (EST) 9. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" >I was creating a route from
>Asheville, NC to Spartanburg SC
>--- the Saluda Grade route. Has everybody heard the news? NS has taken the A & S out of service between Hendersonville and some point in SC. This route is now history as far as operations on Saluda Grade are concerned, and a few years from now, if there are no major changes in W NC traffic, don't be surprised to see NS remove the rails from that 5% on the mountain. A sad day for US rail history, and another reason to hope you can get this historic route finished and posted for download. Good luck! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
flarrfan (476 posts)
Dec-13-01, 06:58 PM (EST) 10. "Saluda realism" Would be really neat if you could figure out some way to program in the timing section at the bottom of the grade, and an "Activity Ended" message to flash automatically upon climbing the runaway track at Melrose! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
romerails (27 posts)
Dec-14-01, 03:25 PM (EST) 14. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-01 AT 03:26 PM (EST)Yes, I have thought about that ... the runaway track is already installed and has been initiated with a 100 car runaway coal train. Quite a mess. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
romerails (27 posts)
Dec-14-01, 03:27 PM (EST) 15. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" Hmm? Well Hendersonville is where this vanishing point is .. perhaps somehow MSTS 'knew' it was about to be abandoned. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
landnrailroader (71 posts)
Dec-14-01, 10:04 AM (EST) 12. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" Kind of off the topic, but I read in the responses that, once again, NS has killed the Saluda line. It's happened before, and maybe this time it will be permanent.I don't exactly remember this part of my Southern Rwy. employment with fondness, for I was scared silly the night it happened, but here is my contribution to the folklore of this line.In the late 60s, Southern intended to start running the Belmont coal train down this hill without splitting it up. At that time, 3 or 4 SD-35s were used on the front-end, and 2-3 more in the slave consist, about 2/3 back in the train. D.W.Brosnan was pres. then, and so we were told to find out why the train was breaking in two, practically every night, usually within a few yards of the summit. Numerous instrumented tests were run, and the drawbar forces were never very high, but the train always broke in two, just about on the grade crossing at the summit.One night, I set up some floodlights and put a bench at the crossing, so I could observe the passing train (usually around 3-4am). I found that the change in grade was so severe, that the knuckle was literally peeled open from the top down - i.e. the force was concentraded on a small portion of the knuckle, and then when it started to go, it just went all the way.One night, when there was about 3' of snow on the ground, we were testing right ahead of the slaves with our test caboose (X-2913). The GRFE who was running the train, told us that if the speed exceeded 8mph, he would tell us to jump, and for us to do so immediately. The speed got to 10mph, he told us to jump, and I landed waiste deep in snow. Though not hurt, in any way, it was a struggle to get out of the stuff. The GRFE got it under control, and we walked down the hill a few hundred feet and got back on.One of the neat things about MSTS, or any other simulator like it, is that you can "save" these old routes, and vicariously relive some of the "fun" that they were. I have enough data on the St.Paul pass line of the old Milwaukee Rd. to consider reconstructing it, and today, I made a copy of the profiles of the Etowah, TN to Copperhill, TN segment of the CSX, Old Main line, which will soon be abandoned or sold, for this purpose. This, roughtly 45 mile segment, contains the famous, or infamous Hiwassee Loop.J. H. Sullivan, P.E. retired Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
romerails (27 posts)
Dec-14-01, 03:38 PM (EST) 16. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" >One of the neat things about
>MSTS, or any other simulator
>like it, is that you
>can "save" these old routes,
>and vicariously relive some of
>the "fun" that they were. I agree. That is what I enjoy most about MSTS and the *&$! editor. I have been collecting old topographic maps that still show now abandoned rail lines to use to recreate them. I also bought a Piedmont Division track chart for use in recreating some lines near where I grew up, Clemson, SC. I now live in Georgia and am creating the A&S from memory, the track chart and topographic maps but some areas of the line I have never visited and are a complete mystery. If I get this project near completion, would you be willing to Beta test it for any drastic inaccuracies since you have a first hand knowledge of the route? BTW, I wondered if I may have exagerated the change in grade at the top of the hill at Saluda. After reading your post, I don't think I did!
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Chuck (29 posts)
Dec-18-01, 10:41 AM (EST) 19. "RE: HUGE BUG!? PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME CONFIRM" I ran into the same problem just west of Whitefish, MT. I am trying to extend the Maris Pass route west to Sandpoint, ID. Going in east it is OK. Going west it is not. Where is Lawrence Kelli? He can figure it out. At least he has solved all my other problems.
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