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trainrcool (27 posts)
Dec-09-01, 03:02 PM (EST) "dem just asking" hi
i know i ask this befor i am trying to start my route but i can't get any info on my route so i'm thinking if i get the dem wold it help me like wold it know where you put the track and building and hill or do i have to do that myself. just asking.
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: dem just asking LawrenceKellie Dec-09-01 1 RE: dem just asking TAfan Dec-09-01 2 RE: dem just asking LawrenceKellie Dec-09-01 3 RE: dem just asking TAfan Dec-09-01 4 RE: dem just asking LawrenceKellie Dec-09-01 5 RE: dem just asking TAfan Dec-09-01 6 RE: dem just asking LawrenceKellie Dec-09-01 9 RE: dem just asking TAfan Dec-09-01 10 RE: dem just asking sgreene3 Dec-09-01 11 RE: dem just asking rgarber Dec-09-01 12 RE: dem just asking TAfan Dec-09-01 13 RE: dem just asking rgarber Dec-09-01 16 RE: dem just asking LawrenceKellie Dec-09-01 14 RE: dem just asking TAfan Dec-09-01 15 RE: dem just asking LawrenceKellie Dec-09-01 17 RE: dem just asking TAfan Dec-10-01 19 RE: dem just asking davidbeach Dec-10-01 18 RE: dem just asking trainrcool Dec-09-01 7 RE: dem just asking LawrenceKellie Dec-09-01 8 RE: dem just asking wdperson Dec-10-01 20

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LawrenceKellie (886 posts)
Dec-09-01, 03:24 PM (EST) 1. "RE: dem just asking" So what are you asking?Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TAfan (72 posts)
Dec-09-01, 04:33 PM (EST) 2. "RE: dem just asking" Well, he's asking if getting DEM data for the area he's planning on recreating will show him where to lay the tracks, place buildings, rivers, other features, etc., or whether he will still have to research all this separately. What else would it mean?You seem to be something of an expert on DEM - for the uninitiated (including me) what exactly does DEM data consist of?Cheers,
TAfan Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (886 posts)
Dec-09-01, 04:41 PM (EST) 3. "RE: dem just asking" Thank you.No. DEM *only* provides the elevational points within a geographical area.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TAfan (72 posts)
Dec-09-01, 05:09 PM (EST) 4. "RE: dem just asking" A-ha. So am I right in thinking that this raw DEM data is converted into square tiles that MSTS can use by that MicroDEM programme you wrote about? And only from then on you can arrange them and populate them with stuff in the MSTS route editor?And two more quick questions, if you don't mind
- what does DEM stand for (I'd never heard of it until I came across TrainSim)?
- do you know why it is apparently only available for the U.S.? Is the raw DEM data government controlled or something like that?Cheers,
TAfan Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (886 posts)
Dec-09-01, 05:24 PM (EST) 5. "RE: dem just asking" >A-ha. So am I right in
>thinking that this raw DEM
>data is converted into square
>tiles that MSTS can use
>by that MicroDEM programme you
>wrote about? No. The raw DEM is processed into an ASCII XYZ UTM file, which is then used by DEM-EX to write to the MSTS tile files. If you want to go further with this, you really need to obtain the DEM guide that is available at http://www.edmfamily.com/msts/demtut.htm. It would be a good investment, primarily because I will not answer questions that are in that guide. I have no need to repeat myself ad nauseum.>then on you can arrange
>them and populate them with
>stuff in the MSTS route
>editor? No. You can do all of this by hand or not at all. It is up to you whether you want to have hills, etc., in your route. You can place shapes on your route at any time.>And two more quick questions, if
>you don't mind Do I have a choice? You posted the questions without waiting for my answer.>- what does DEM stand for
>(I'd never heard of it
>until I came across TrainSim)? Digital Elevation Model. There is a very good site to find meanings of words or acronyms--http://www.dictionary.com. Try it some time.>- do you know why it
>is apparently only available for
>the U.S.? Is the raw
>DEM data government controlled or
>something like that? Strictly speaking, Digital Elevation Model is available for any part of the world, as "Digital Elevation Models (or DEMs) are digital files consisting of points of elevations, sampled systematically at equally spaced intervals." Therefore, any digital file consisting of points of elevations would technically be DEMs.However, there are different formats, resolutions of DEMs. The format and resolution of DEMs that work best with DEM-EX (which is the controlling factor here) is only found for United States areas.Is it government controlled? No. It is *produced* by an agency/department(s) of the US government, but it is not controlled by the government. Anyone can produce DEMs--if they have the equipment. However, I would think that the time and money needed to produce a sufficient quantity for commercial use would be very resource consuming, i.e., take a lot of time and a lot of money. The government as many, many uses for such data, so if they produce it, they know that they have it.
>
>Cheers,
>TAfan
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TAfan (72 posts)
Dec-09-01, 05:38 PM (EST) 6. "RE: dem just asking" > If you want to
>go further with this, you
>really need to obtain the
>DEM guide that is available
>at http://www.edmfamily.com/msts/demtut.htm. It would
>be a good investment, primarily
>because I will not answer
>questions that are in that
>guide. I have no
>need to repeat myself ad
>nauseum. Cheers for the info - I don't want to get into real nitty gritty details about DEM, I was generally just curious about the way MSTS worlds are built and the processes involved.>Do I have a choice?
>You posted the questions without
>waiting for my answer. Well, yeah - you didn't have to answer! It is appreciated though...>>- what does DEM stand for
>>(I'd never heard of it
>>until I came across TrainSim)?
>
>Digital Elevation Model. There is
>a very good site to
>find meanings of words or
>acronyms--http://www.dictionary.com. Try it some
>time. Well sorry for asking!Thanks for the info though - these things might seem second nature to yourself and others, but to someone with no knowledge or experience of 3d modelling & terrain recreation it's a great help in trying to get one's head around things.Cheers,
TAfan Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (886 posts)
Dec-09-01, 07:54 PM (EST) 9. "RE: dem just asking" >>Digital Elevation Model. There is
>>a very good site to
>>find meanings of words or
>>acronyms--http://www.dictionary.com. Try it some
>>time.
>
>Well sorry for asking! I'm a firm advocate of teaching about resources that a person can use to find the answer for themself, which is why I pointed you to http://www.dictionary.com. Now, if you don't want to learn how to find answers for yourself, then that's fine. Just don't expect any free lunches from me or from many others here. There are lots of resources available on the Web, and just asking expecting me or anyone else to do the work for you is absolute foolishness.For example, I went to Yahoo.com and entered "DEM" as the search term. The very top response was "Dem (Digital Elevation Models) - DEM (Digital Elevation Model) from INTEC Americas." Clearly, you can learn what the meaning of the acronym of DEM is just by a very simple search at the number one search resource on the Web. Therefore, instead of wasting your time waiting, my time typing, and Train-sim's resources to answer the question, you could have found it out by a very simple search.I have spent literally hours answering a person who has asked a question for which there is no answer in the archives of this forum, and I do not begrudge that fact. However, answering questions from people who will not take the initiative to find the answer, sorry, but I won't do it. I will point you to the sources, but I will not do it for you. And, that is the attitude of many here. We are more than happy to help you, but when you ask for something that can be found by you expending a little effort on your own, why should *I* expend that effort just because you are lazy? Further, many people have created very good "tutorials" that are packed full of very good information. Obtaining those tutorials are paramount to understanding what is going on.>Thanks for the info though -
>these things might seem second
>nature to yourself and others,
>but to someone with no
>knowledge or experience of 3d
>modelling & terrain recreation it's
>a great help in trying
>to get one's head around
>things. Whether things are second nature or not is not the point. Each of us in this forum who have been here for any length of time and who respond to questions have been where you are now. What is the point is that we will not repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat ourselves because someone is not willing to put out the effort to search for themselves.The best "help for trying to get one's head around things," is to start searching this forum for messages dealing with the information that you need to know. Now, quite honestly, using such a broad term as "this" as your search term will not yield anything useful. Even narrowing it down to "DEM" would give you a lot of information. However, let's say that you did use "DEM" as your search term and you then found that you needed to narrow it down, and in the search you even found what term to use to narrow it down, then do another search with the multiple terms. Oh, and don't forget to put a checkmark in the Archives checkbox.So my response to your childish, "Well sorry for asking!" is simply, here are the resources, use them, then if you don't understand something, ask.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TAfan (72 posts)
Dec-09-01, 08:34 PM (EST) 10. "RE: dem just asking" LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-01 AT 08:37 PM (EST)LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-01 AT 08:35 PM (EST)>>>Digital Elevation Model. There is
>>>a very good site to
>>>find meanings of words or
>>>acronyms--http://www.dictionary.com. Try it some
>>>time.
>>
>>Well sorry for asking!
>
>I'm a firm advocate of teaching
>about resources that a person
>can use to find the
>answer for themself, which is
>why I pointed you to
>http://www.dictionary.com. Now, if you Erm, I wasn't complaining about being informed of the URL. In fact, I appreciate that. It was the sarcastic nature of it which I found annoying and unnecessary.>Whether things are second nature or
>not is not the point. Well that's debatable...>So my response to your childish,
>"Well sorry for asking!" is
>simply, here are the resources,
>use them, then if you
>don't understand something, ask. True, and in this case I know I directly asked you because I've seen your posts in the past about the complex world of DEMs. But when new people arrive on this forum everyday, I don't think it's safe to assume that they all know about forum etiquette, what is and isn't the done thing, and what resources are available to them at this site. You complain that you have spent hours and hours answering the same questions, and I understand your frustrations, but you are choosing to reply to their queries aren't you? It's commendable to help people in the way that you have (including me - for which I have already expressed my gratitude a number of times), but less so if you're going to complain about it.But as for calling my comment childish, well if that's what I get by responding in a light-hearted way to a sarcastic answer to a legitimate question that many people could be wondering, may I return your favour of providing links...I took your advice, but used a different search engine.
Perhaps you would care to take a look at this:http://www.loveclicks.com/friends.htmHere's my tip to add to it: try not to insult people so often.Yours,
TAfan.PS Just read in another post someone complaining about the attitude of some of the more experienced contributors to this forum, and how he doesn't bother posting questions here anymore. I've got to say I know exactly how he feels. I ask an innocent and genuine question, and what do I get? Sarcasm and criticism. x) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sgreene3 (41 posts)
Dec-09-01, 09:07 PM (EST) 11. "RE: dem just asking" >PS Just read in another post
>someone complaining about the attitude
>of some of the more
>experienced contributors to this forum,
>and how he doesn't bother
>posting questions here anymore. I've
>got to say I know
>exactly how he feels. I
>ask an innocent and genuine
>question, and what do I
>get? Sarcasm and criticism. x)
>
Thank You!
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rgarber (765 posts)
Dec-09-01, 09:32 PM (EST) 12. "RE: dem just asking" Do people like you make a profession of this? Do I need to point you back to our little go-round in the MSTS forum? You may fool some people some of the time, but not all the people all the time. http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/4386.htmlThe sad fact is we have a few here who do nothing but complain. The same today as it was back then, you voice your opinion, cause a little trouble and then move on. You don't do anything. Your attempts at the route building were futile. Why do you even ask? It's this kind of insincerity and your attacks on the 'old timers' that has the good ones leaving this place.And I'll tell ya... you folks just about succeed too. And then what are you gonna do? You gonna answer all these newbie questions yourself? You've contributed absolutely nothing except your opinions. So give us a break and find an opinionated forum to dish out your nonsense. The point of this forum is route building. Let me say this again... RRRROOOUTTEEEE BBBUUUIILLDDINGGG... maybe that wasn't clear enough... RROOUTTEEE BUILLLLLDDDIINNGGGG.. you gave up on it a long time ago... RREEEEMMMEEEMMMBBEERRRRR...shhesh!Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TAfan (72 posts)
Dec-09-01, 10:02 PM (EST) 13. "RE: dem just asking" <sigh> here we go again...>Do people like you make a
>profession of this? Do I No but I wish I did - it's not what I came here to do but when people get hostile and offensive to me for no apparent reason I'm going to return the favor. No, nor do you need to remind me of our little debate a while back. I'm quite aware of your feelings for me. <sniff sniff>>The sad fact is we have
>a few here who do
>nothing but complain. The same Please show me a post of mine in this thread before being insulted by Lawrence Kellie where I complained about anything.>today as it was back
>then, you voice your opinion,
>cause a little trouble and
>then move on. You don't I moved on because I won that argument. When everyone opposing me had to resort to common insults (if they had a reasoned and credible argument, why didn't they use it?) I'm happy to say to myself that I've won.>do anything. Your attempts at
>the route building were futile. What evidence do you have to back this up? Please show me a post where I have declared that I am attempting to build a route.>Why do you even ask? I'd guess it's because I'm prepared to learn. We all have to at some point in this game, in case you'd forgotten.>It's this kind of insincerity
>and your attacks on the
>'old timers' that has the
>good ones leaving this place. No, it's the constant shooting down of newbies who don't know what's going on, and this kind of stuff that I reply to. >do? You gonna answer all
>these newbie questions yourself? You've Nope. Not at all. But when I do I'm going to do so without complaining. And without sarcasm and criticism.>contributed absolutely nothing except your
>opinions. So give us a Well, since in the past you were so keen to point out that you'd read all my posts, to the extent that I wondered if you wanted a medal for it, you might like to check again. I think you'll find that as I've learnt more about the game, I am able to help others more as well.>break and find an opinionated
>forum to dish out your
>nonsense. The point of this I've found one haven't I? I mean, I only need to mention the word that begins with T and ends in Z to provoke a whole torrent of abuse from you.>forum is route building. Let
>me say this again... RRRROOOUTTEEEE
>BBBUUUIILLDDINGGG... maybe that wasn't clear
>enough... RROOUTTEEE BUILLLLLDDDIINNGGGG.. you gave Hmm, quite. So why are you using the very same forum for an unrelated and unprovoked attack on me? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (765 posts)
Dec-09-01, 11:14 PM (EST) 16. "RE: dem just asking" LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-01 AT 11:35 PM (EST)This is the same nonsense from the previous post, so see my responses to you in the link I provided previously.And I guess you win again too because I just rather waste my time doing something that benefits this community than spending any more time with you.You're just a waste of my time.Richard Garber
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LawrenceKellie (886 posts)
Dec-09-01, 10:21 PM (EST) 14. "RE: dem just asking" >them at this site. You
>complain that you have spent
>hours and hours answering the
>same questions, and I understand
>your frustrations, but you are
>choosing to reply to their Contrary to what you think, I am not complaining.>But as for calling my comment
>childish, well if that's what
>I get by responding in
>a light-hearted way to a
>sarcastic answer to a legitimate This is quite interesting. You state that you responded in a "light-hearted" way to a "sarcastic" answer. Well you know what? I considered my answer, to which you considered it as sarcastic, as light hearted. And I considered you answer, to which you considered it is light hearted, as sarcastic. Go figure!
>I took your advice, but used
>a different search engine.
>Perhaps you would care to take
>a look at this:
>
>http://www.loveclicks.com/friends.htm Nope. I don't need any help with my love life. But if you do, by all means, visit it.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TAfan (72 posts)
Dec-09-01, 10:38 PM (EST) 15. "RE: dem just asking" >Contrary to what you think, I
>am not complaining. Okay - that's fine. I interpreted it that you were, which had me a bit puzzled.>This is quite interesting. You
>state that you responded in
>a "light-hearted" way to a
>"sarcastic" answer. Well you
>know what? I considered
>my answer, to which you
>considered it as sarcastic, as
>light hearted. And I
>considered you answer, to which
>you considered it is light
>hearted, as sarcastic. Go
>figure! Well if you're saying that your comment about using the dictionary wasn't intended to be sarcastic, then I apologise for my reactions and comments. Is this whole thing just us misunderstanding each other?>>http://www.loveclicks.com/friends.htm
>
>Nope. I don't need any
>help with my love life.
> But if you do,
>by all means, visit it. Actually it was about making friends. But please consider this and other arguments retracted until the above point is clarified.Cheers,
TAfan
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LawrenceKellie (886 posts)
Dec-09-01, 11:28 PM (EST) 17. "RE: dem just asking" I think that I have already made myself clear on whether the dictionary comment was sarcastic or not.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TAfan (72 posts)
Dec-10-01, 04:33 PM (EST) 19. "RE: dem just asking" Okay - then please accept my apologies for the things I said earlier. I'd go back and cut it all if I could, but it's well over an hour since I posted it Yours,
TAfan. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
davidbeach (77 posts)
Dec-10-01, 03:39 PM (EST) 18. "RE: dem just asking" Lawrence,One minor nit, your statement that DEMs of the format & resolution that work best with DEM-EX are found only for the United States is strictly only true with regard to free DEM data. As I understand it from other, long ago posts (you're welcome to search for them, turn on the search archives option ) Non-US DEM information is available for paying customers. As I recall, the DEM for a decent sized Canadian route was going to cost $600+/-, so that individual gave up on that project.David. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
trainrcool (27 posts)
Dec-09-01, 07:28 PM (EST) 7. "RE: dem just asking" ok so the dem will not show me where the track and building go but wold it make the terrain like hill or not. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (886 posts)
Dec-09-01, 07:40 PM (EST) 8. "RE: dem just asking" Go to this site, http://www.edmfamily.com/msts/demtut.htm, and get the DEM Guide. It will answer your questions plus show you how to do it.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
wdperson (8 posts)
Dec-10-01, 07:19 PM (EST) 20. "RE: dem just asking" Trainrcool,You are correct. Using DEM data (from sites like gisdatadepot.com) help you with the terrain, the hills, valleys, etc. You download the DEM data from the site. Then use XYZ Merge then finish with DEM-EX to finialize the terrain. This is the short version of it. If you download XYZ Merge and DEM-EX they will provide all the neccessary information that you need. If you don't have DEM data in your area then TSTF3 is the way to go. I don't use it, but it sounds like a very good program also. Also, I use Street Atlas USA and MakeMarker v3 to help with placing my tracks, roads, etc. MakeMarker is a valuable tool that is a small download (1.8meg approx) and is free. I import my data from Street Atlas USA and then use MakeMarker to put down the locations of roads, tracks, etc. Mike Riley
Erie Lackawanna, Mahoning Division, First Sub Division
18 miles done, 37 to go. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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