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rhian (5 posts)
Dec-09-01, 12:27 PM (EST) "Where to start" I just wanted to save myself a bit a time by not going back through all 6000+ posting to see if this was asked before, but just where do you start with route designing?This software is getting to be a typical Microshaft trait, include the design software with the simulation but don't support it and make things worse by giving 'help' files that are more cofusing. Ive spent weeks '(or months) learning LinksLS golf course design, flightsim and now trainsim and I"m just hoping to shortcut that bathtub curve learning process.Thanks in advance
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Where to start SD80MAC Dec-09-01 1 RE: Where to start rhian Dec-09-01 3 RE: Where to start wbgx Dec-09-01 2 RE: Where to start rhian Dec-09-01 4 RE: Where to start rgarber Dec-09-01 5 RE: Where to start Euston Dec-09-01 6 RE: Where to start LawrenceKellie Dec-09-01 7 RE: Where to start sgreene3 Dec-09-01 8 RE: Where to start rgarber Dec-09-01 9 RE: Where to start Hawk Dec-09-01 10 RE: Where to start sgreene3 Dec-09-01 11 RE: Where to start LawrenceKellie Dec-09-01 13 RE: Where to start LawrenceKellie Dec-09-01 12 RE: Where to start rhian Dec-10-01 14 Well.. maybe it was time to teach s... rgarber Dec-10-01 15 RE: Well.. maybe it was time to tea... pennsyfan2 Dec-11-01 16 RE: Well.. maybe it was time to tea... rgarber Dec-11-01 17

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SD80MAC (411 posts)
Dec-09-01, 12:55 PM (EST) 1. "RE: Where to start" Hi Rhian!The best,most comprehensive source your gonna find on Route building is at Abacus.They have a step by step Route building guide that you can download...It is well worth the money.and if you plan on working with Dem's,you need Richard Garbers Dem tutorial.www.abacuspub.com and http://www.edfamily.com-msts/index.htm as far as actuall design I can't help ya there...sorry Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rhian (5 posts)
Dec-09-01, 01:36 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Where to start" Mmm thought as much, buy a MS product and end up paying more for decent manuals. I've seen the Abacus ebook, then theres another for activities then theres... well we all know the story.As for Dems, I've seen a few threads over this but as I'm from the Netherlands it's something I won't need to complicate my life with. The country is flat, ( and mostly under sea level ) and as it is all in an area about 150km by 150km the whole country as one route may be possible, I'll just need a couple of years!!!! I'm getting to old for thisthanks
Rhian Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
wbgx (18 posts)
Dec-09-01, 01:36 PM (EST) 2. "RE: Where to start" I can tell you the method I started with. It may not be to your liking, but I works for me.I read and used the search engine on this forum for topics of interest. I bought Michael Vone's, 'Step-by Step Guide to Building Routes for Microsoft Train Simulator' and then worked with the example route in the guide. Then I started my current project but not until after more research on this forum.What type of route do you want to bulid, ie, prototype or your own'? In my case, I am attempting to model the Union Pacific from Wamsutter to Granger, Wyoming. This involves getting accurate geographic data (DEM's merged with MicroDEM) and putting them together. After putting the various DEM's together I needed to get the DEM data into the route that I previously established the route geometry extractor (with Dem-EX program). Then the fun began as I started placing track.I missed a lot of details, but take small steps and you'll learn a lot in a short period of time. In my case, I usually redo parts of my route as I learn additional methods. Most important, enjoy the experience, it's sometimes frustrating but I think worth the time spent.Boomer Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rhian (5 posts)
Dec-09-01, 01:53 PM (EST) 4. "RE: Where to start" Thanks but living in The Netherlands where the higherst point on any railtrack is about 20meters height isn't the problem, it's just putting 2 tracks on the ground joined together and getting then to look as if they are real. I've worked this bit out now I think!! Now I'm onto overhead cables, they need to be 5.5 meters for NS systems then the gantries all stand a meter to high, I'll work it all out in the end but I'm getting frustrated at wasting time on the basics intead of doing something useful. I'll just have to invest in a book I suppose.Rhian Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (770 posts)
Dec-09-01, 02:00 PM (EST) 5. "RE: Where to start" I would suggest if you're going to ask here for help, and get responses this quickly, I wouldn't begrudge every single suggestion offered to you. Folks are trying to help you with what works best. The book by Mike Vone is excellent. If that bothers you then try the 6000+ post route. When I did my route the book wasn't available. So at least you don't have to learn things the hard way. Why is that so terrible for you?Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Euston (604 posts)
Dec-09-01, 02:03 PM (EST) 6. "RE: Where to start" I just played around for a while - and now its as easy as anything.Just mess about with your blank route for a bit- you can't damage anything if you don't save (I think).
http://fly.to/trainsim Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (893 posts)
Dec-09-01, 02:41 PM (EST) 7. "RE: Where to start" If you do not like Microsoft products, then do not buy them. But please, stop your bastardizing of their name. All it does is show how little your mind is.Second, if you want to create a route and not look at resources that are available to you, then don't come here. None of us are going to hold your hand while you go pee-pee because you don't want to read the information.Third, the help file for the route geography extractor is very good. It provides step by step instructions which are easy to follow. Of course, that precludes that you know how to read. Read them, follow them.And do us a favor. Read the past posts instead of wasting OUR time.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sgreene3 (41 posts)
Dec-09-01, 07:13 PM (EST) 8. "RE: Where to start" TIME OUT!>If you do not like Microsoft
>products, then do not buy
>them. But please, stop
>your bastardizing of their name.
> All it does is
>show how little your mind
>is. And you NEVER complained about anything in your life, Yeah Right.>Second, if you want to create
>a route and not look
>at resources that are available
>to you, then don't come
>here.STUPID STATEMENT of the year award! It was my understanding that is what he came here for And had a few good replys and this meaningless jaw-jacking.
>None of us are going to hold your
>hand while you go pee-pee
>because you don't want to
>read the information. How soon we forget that someone once held our hands while we went pee-pee, because we did not know how to!>Third, the help file for the
>route geography extractor is very
>good. It provides step
>by step instructions which are
>easy to follow. Of
>course, that precludes that you
>know how to read.
>Read them, follow them. Obviously you can't, because there were a few things left out.>And do us a favor.
>Read the past posts instead
>of wasting OUR time. At least you could have pointed the person in the direction of a tread that may have helped instead of snapping there head off! This is one of the reasons I do not bother to ask questions in here any more, because of attitudes like yours.
New people are going to buy the sim, New people are going to come here and ask the same questions over and over again. And also, doing a search in these post for answers to questions is not very rewarding because there are numorous conflicting How-To's. So sit back, Pop-a-Top and puff a smoke and RELAX! Geez. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (770 posts)
Dec-09-01, 07:27 PM (EST) 9. "RE: Where to start" Sgreene... chill pill time...You wrote:"At least you could have pointed the person in the direction of a tread that may have helped instead of snapping there head off! This is one of the reasons I do not bother to ask questions in here any more, because of attitudes like yours."Maybe you need to reread the thread here bud. You may note like I did that every suggestion for the newebie was shot down by who? The newbie.Then you wrote:"New people are going to buy the sim, New people are going to come here and ask the same questions over and over again. And also, doing a search in these post for answers to questions is not very rewarding because there are numorous conflicting How-To's."Once again Sgreene, the original posters gave the newbie plenty of fantastic, excellent advice, don't you agree? And what did the newbie do? Shot it all down.My advice to you is to understand no one gets great joy in trashing someone around here. Then again, we don't like getting trashed either. Now if you like having your home trashed by folks, that's one thing. But some of us here are a little thankful for for the folks at MS in releasing MSTS. Some of us are very thankful for the help of others right here in the forum. And some of us are a little tired of folks coming in here and popping off. You wanna ask a question that's fine. But check the attitude at the door. We'll help ya for sure. But leave the chip on your shoulder out door. Sound fair enough?Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hawk (245 posts)
Dec-09-01, 07:51 PM (EST) 10. "RE: Where to start" Right-on. Well said, Rich.
Hawk
"And it comes to be, that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way."
Metallica Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sgreene3 (41 posts)
Dec-09-01, 08:34 PM (EST) 11. "RE: Where to start" Back-up, I did not come in here to pop-off, I happened to read this tread and noticed someone else was doing the trashing! Your post was very descrete, but the one I had replied to was down-right uncalled for. Rhian's post's were, yes, negitvive, but we have all been there. The way I see it, if no one want's to get trashed, then don't trash anyone else. And if your going to trash someone, it's comming back at you.I do agree with you, that attitudes should be checked at the door, but that includes all, not a select few.All I am trying to say is not everyone is not eveyone is computer savey, the poor guy sounded fed-up, and people gave him the best advice possible, thats all anyone can do. But there was no reason for Lawrence's reply, and if Lawrence is reading this I am sorry, I think it should have been said differently. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (893 posts)
Dec-09-01, 09:59 PM (EST) 13. "RE: Where to start" You are of course entitled to your opinion, as I hope you allow me the right to my opinion. But, you have already declared that I do NOT have the right to an opinion, as what you call "trashing" was my opinion on rhian's asking for information and rejecting information the information given.So please allow me the right to an opinion just as I am allowing you that right.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (893 posts)
Dec-09-01, 09:54 PM (EST) 12. "RE: Where to start" >And you NEVER complained about anything
>in your life, Yeah Right. Certainly I have complained about things. But I don't disrepectfully bastardize names of those who I complain about. I still maintain, if you don't like it so much that you feel you have to bastardize the name, then don't buy it. In fact, if you wanted to, you could say that I am complaining about your response (Complain: To express feelings of pain, dissatisfaction, or resentment. From http://www.dictionary.com.) But I have not bastardized your name in the process, and I won't. I respect you as a person, and I do not do that to people who I respect.And, I am not blind to the fact that there are problems with Train Sim. Certainly there are problems. But what software doesn't have problems? I submit to you that *every* software that has ever been produced, *someone* *somewhere* will be able to break it. Period. So just because there are problems, that gives you or anyone else the right to bastardize the name?>>Second, if you want to create
>>a route and not look
>>at resources that are available
>>to you, then don't come
>>here.
>
>STUPID STATEMENT of the year award!
> It was my understanding
>that is what he came
>here for And had a
>few good replys and this
>meaningless jaw-jacking. He came here and asked a question. He received answers, good answers, answers which would and did provide information. For example:"The best,most comprehensive source your gonna find on Route building is at Abacus." To which he replied, "buy a MS product and end up paying more for decent manuals." What did he do, he rejected the advice.Further, he is given the answer, "if you plan on working with Dem's..." Now nothing was said in the original post where the poster was from. But, the poster again didn't like the response, to which he responded flippantly, and rejected the information.Then wbgx told what he did. And rhian came back with "I'll work it all out in the end but I'm getting frustrated at wasting time on the basics intead of doing something useful. I'll just have to invest in a book I suppose." Basically telling wbgx that his response was a waste of time, and rejected the information.So, now we have two people who have responded to rhian with very sound advice. Both times, rhian was rude in response.Then Rich became involved and gave some sound advice. Rich stated that if he didn't want to take the advice of the previous two people (which, by the way, is very good advice), then read the 6000+ posts!Then to round it out, Euston gave a very basic response which couldn't possibly have any rebuttal. Start with a blank route, small, and just play around with it. Lay track, etc.Now, this person has four responses with incredible advice, but rhian has rejected two of the four. And the only reason I can't say that he rejected all four is because he has not responded.Then my response. I do not apologize for it. Especially to you. My response is very succinct and appropriate for what goes before. Rhian gives the impression that he wants his hand held in every aspect. Well that just ain't going to happen. If you read another post that I just finished writing, you will find out that if the person looking for information has already done some looking, and cannot come up with answers, then I and others here are more than happy to provide assistance. As I stated in that other post, I have spent hours responding to a person, giving very detailed information and instructions. But we will not repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat ourselves to anyone.>>None of us are going to hold your
>>hand while you go pee-pee
>>because you don't want to
>>read the information.
>
>How soon we forget that someone
>once held our hands while
>we went pee-pee, because we
>did not know how to! Sorry, in this case with MSTS, you are incorrect. My definition of "holding my hand," which I believe is clear in my previous post and in this one, is that the person is not willing to do some looking for themsleves. I created my routes by doing as much for myself as I could, and *then* asking questions. I searched the forum, I read, I did all that I could for myself. I never once stated that I wasn't going to spend the time doing my part. Rhian admitted that he didn't want to do this in his opening statement. He said, "I just wanted to save myself a bit a time by not going back through all 6000+ posting." In other words, he wanted US (that's you and me) to waste OUR time rewriting information that has already been written. He was not willing to spend HIS time to look for the information himself. Well, sorry, but that is NOT how life is (unless you are on the government teat). And in fact, that is NOT the purpose of education. The purpose of education is to learn WHERE to get the answers, not to have the answers.>>Third, the help file for the
>>route geography extractor is very
>>good. It provides step
>>by step instructions which are
>>easy to follow. Of
>>course, that precludes that you
>>know how to read.
>>Read them, follow them.
>
>Obviously you can't, because there were
>a few things left out. You are incorrect again. If you *read* and follow the Help file instructions on how to create a route, you WILL have a workable route. It is just that simple. How do I know that? Because I did it, others have done it. I also have missed instructions in the Help file and things did NOT go correctly. However, if you do read and follow precisely those instructions for creating a route, you will get one created. Surprisingly enough, the Help file *is* good. For most software, it is meaningless and useless.>>And do us a favor.
>>Read the past posts instead
>>of wasting OUR time.
>
>At least you could have pointed
>the person in the direction
>of a tread that may
>have helped instead of snapping
>there head off! This is
>one of the reasons I
>do not bother to ask
>questions in here any more,
>because of attitudes like yours. Why? He was already given adequate information to do what he wanted to do. In fact, I DID point him to more information--the Help file.Let me tell you, you are going to be answered much faster, fuller, and civiler here than you will in the Skinning forum, in which you have never posted! There, you will not only NOT get an answer, you will get a surley answer, AND there is no discussion of the material that you can search out for yourself! At least in this forum, if you are willing to get off your big backside, so to speak, you can find the answers to most of the questions that you may have. Here rhian DID get answers, which he summarily rejected. So if you are going to vent on anyone, vent on rhian as he rejected perfectly good advice.Further point on searching the forum, you made a request in http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/210.html, to which the only response you received was the search the files for a particular file. That response was no different from the responses that rhian received. But, you did not respond by rejecting that response. (In fact, you didn't respond at all!)Further, in this post http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/4588.html, you responded the same way that the three people prior to me responded, yet the person did not reject what you wrote.For most questions, they can be answered by judicious searching of this forum, including the Archived material. For the most part, it is there. So, why should I waste my time rewriting what has already been written?>New people are going to buy
>the sim, New people are
>going to come here and
>ask the same questions over
>and over again. And also,
>doing a search in these
>post for answers to questions
>is not very rewarding because
>there are numorous conflicting How-To's. Regarding new people coming. They will receive the same answer if they respond to the answers they were given the way rhian did!Regarding finding "numorous {sic} conflicting How-To's {sic}" do you really think that by asking the question in the forum you won't get conflicting information? If you do, you have been smoking too much of that wacky tobacky that you want me to smoke!By the way, the only reason doing a search "is not very rewarding" is because the person does not to spend the energy and time to do that. Instead, the person want's a fast, easy answer. As I stated above, they want their hand held while they go pee-pee.>So sit back, Pop-a-Top and puff
>a smoke and RELAX! Geez. No I won't. I don't drink, I don't smoke, and I resent you implying that you know my behaviour when you do not know the slightess bit about me.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rhian (5 posts)
Dec-10-01, 03:56 PM (EST) 14. "RE: Where to start" Hi again,I would just like to reply to some of the posts here, and clarify some things before eveyone comes to blows over this thread.I started by 'just playing around in route editor' some of the processes did seem a bit vague and there is not as far as I know even a list of keyboard shortcuts in the help file. I realise that once you know your way around the interface you know it's easy and sometimes forget that newcomers don't always follow the same logical thought processes as the designers of the software. My second course of action was to surf around the many train sim sites to see if other people were having similar startup problems, I have helped many beginners with Ms Links course design and hoped that similar self help would be available here. I have discovered a few individuals who have tuts on their sites which were a great help and wondered if there was a central repository for tuts.I was searching for interesting threads here and had checked out several hundred, lots went off thread and were not always appropriate for beginners, some were helpful but the search process is not the best way to get up and running, up and walking maybe, but I tend to get impatient with long learning curves. My original post was to help sort the wheat from the chaff, see the posts from xxx, or this is a good thread to start with, or this is a good book, and this was looking good from the first few posts, a book, an ebook and guidance to play with the thing - thanks guys.I have no gripe with the advice given and I'm glad that people feel happy enough with books to recommend them, but I do feel that I have legitamate complaints over MS, they are selling software without support or manuals and if your not carefull you end up spending more on manuals than on the original software. Several times I have rushed out to buy manuals for MS products only to be dissapointed with the content, now I always ask what others think first, I will be buying at least 1 of the recommended books following advice received here, I have not rejected the replies only commented. I am also still trying out things with the tools I have despite the flaky nature of the program made worse I'm sure by my tinkering.On a personal level, just because I find the user interface a little illogical at times, I'm sure I'm not alone here, it does not mean I'm computer illiterate, I have worked with computers for over 25 years, but if anyone would like a real reason to complain about me I'm sure the fact that I'm female is enough to fuel all the biases.Once again, thank you for the advice those who gave it, for those with childish personal attacks I'll say nothing, then you can't complain futher, (well you probaby will but it's your time youre wasting)
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rgarber (770 posts)
Dec-10-01, 04:31 PM (EST) 15. "Well.. maybe it was time to teach some old dogs new tricks" Rhian,I've come to your conclusions as well. Your original point about the 6000+ messages was well taken and I've been thinking about it since. There has got to be a better way for newer people to the sim to get a hold of information without feeling like they have to reinvent the wheel. There's alot to be said for that.Where LK and I get all rowdy is because we've been here a long time and alot is second nature to us. Further we have seen all types come and go, some are helpful some are devisive. Honestly we do get folks in here who do pop-off throwing out some things that aren't helpful.Keep in mind we are all busy, but how can we help? Unfortunately the best we can offer is what has already been proposed. The Route book by Mike is great because none of us have the time or energy to rewrite it. The book by Cybex... well... it's good if you only intend to just play the game side. But for route creation, Mike's book is very very helpful. See Mike was here in this forum and we didn't even know he was writing it. So we all learned the hard way. And so that way is natural for us.But for you new guys/gals, the book is the best way.There's something else too. The ability to do DEM radically changes the length of time it takes to do a route. And I'm on a personal crusade to see people understand that. The gist of it is the only think I can think of which could be helpful to new folks is a separate reference section where folks can just download materials that may help them.Do you have any other ideas?Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
pennsyfan2 (14 posts)
Dec-11-01, 01:32 AM (EST) 16. "RE: Well.. maybe it was time to teach some old dogs new tricks" LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-01 AT 01:33 AM (EST)"There's something else too. The ability to do DEM radically changes the length of time it takes to do a route. And I'm on a personal crusade to see people understand that. The gist of it is the only think I can think of which could be helpful to new folks is a separate reference section where folks can just download materials that may help them."rgarberRich, I'm with you on the separate section. At least a separate topic
on this forum devoted to "terrain modeliing for MSTS" is my suggestion. Also a separate section in the file library where files and links to the programs and files used in the terrain modeling process would be stored. Is that up to Nels?Pennsyfan2 Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (770 posts)
Dec-11-01, 08:22 AM (EST) 17. "RE: Well.. maybe it was time to teach some old dogs new tricks" I thought about reposting my earlier tutorials at my site which I think could be of help but their exposure would be limited to those who came to the site.It would have to be a Nels thing yes. I would recommend a section whether it was freeware or payware that it would be displayed. Keep it limited to manageable number of references. Even a site like one guy had where he put up pictures how he did things would be a benefit.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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