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pennsyfan2 (13 posts)
Dec-07-01, 03:59 PM (EST) "Demtutorial" I've been working with Rich G's demtutorial. He appears to have the process nailed and it is simple compared to other earlier
route building efforts I've engaged in(unsuccessfully).This is the first time I've actually managed to get some terrain that looks realistic. It has not been a smooth process however.
I don't think the problem is with Rich's procedures. There is a big flat trench through the middle of the section I just finishedThe programs used are very fussy about the integrity of the dem data they work with. It seems to be a crap shoot on whether you get a good dem download, even from GISdatadepot. xyxmerge and microdem both have complained about incomplete data when working with *.tar.gz files and Peter Ruth(microdem) is right about not using winzip to decompress dems. They work in some other viewers but not in microdem. I've also been trying to work with the new microdem 5.03 but apparently I haven't hooked up to the MSTS friendly version yet.
I find nothing in the help files to suggest it is part of the
12-03 download at Prof. Guth's site.At least there is some progress and renewed hope that some day the Keystone Corridor will again see GG1's and Tuscan Red plying it's RailsPennsyfan2
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Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Demtutorial rgarber Dec-07-01 1 RE: Demtutorial LawrenceKellie Dec-07-01 2 RE: Demtutorial LawrenceKellie Dec-07-01 3 RE: Demtutorial NickF Dec-07-01 6 RE: Demtutorial LawrenceKellie Dec-07-01 7 RE: Demtutorial NickF Dec-08-01 12 RE: Demtutorial LawrenceKellie Dec-08-01 13 RE: Demtutorial NickF Dec-08-01 15 RE: Demtutorial LawrenceKellie Dec-07-01 4 RE: Demtutorial pennsyfan2 Dec-07-01 5 RE: Demtutorial LawrenceKellie Dec-08-01 8 RE: Demtutorial pennsyfan2 Dec-08-01 9 RE: Demtutorial LawrenceKellie Dec-08-01 14 RE: Demtutorial Filip Dec-08-01 10 RE: Demtutorial rgarber Dec-08-01 11 RE: Demtutorial Hawk Dec-08-01 16

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rgarber (733 posts)
Dec-07-01, 05:21 PM (EST) 1. "RE: Demtutorial" Pennsy,Glad you're seeing some results now. I can't help you on the incomplete DEM data but I may be able to help you on the trough.
We can get rid of that. Best if I do that through private email so I can make sure we're talking the same terminology. Email me at rgarber@vnet.netRich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (861 posts)
Dec-07-01, 05:52 PM (EST) 2. "RE: Demtutorial" I believe that in Rich's Guide, you will find he points to a source to get MicroDem. You MUST get it from that source. It is the only one that will work.If you are currently using a version of MicroDem that was not from that source, then you did NOT follow the instructions in the guide, and you will not get proper results.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (861 posts)
Dec-07-01, 05:53 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Demtutorial" I have never had any DEM from gisdatadepot fail integrity--and I have downloaded and used probably 300-400 DEM.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
NickF (496 posts)
Dec-07-01, 10:33 PM (EST) 6. "RE: Demtutorial" Quick question for you, Lawrence. I downloaded soem DEMS for Doloros County, Colorado, and got some errors in the new version of MicroDEM that I hadn't seen before. Three quads so far (Hermosa Peak and both Engineer Mountain tar's) generated an "incorrect digitizing datum" error, and the Glade Mountain quad produced a "too many columns" error during the merge. I hadn't seen this error in the previos version, but then I never tried to merge these quads with the old version either, so I don't kjnow if it's related. The data came from GISDepot, and was downloaded today. Any thoughts on this? Is this just bad data at the source?Thanks,Nick Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (861 posts)
Dec-07-01, 11:54 PM (EST) 7. "RE: Demtutorial" >seen before. Three quads so
>far (Hermosa Peak and both
>Engineer Mountain tar's) generated an
>"incorrect digitizing datum" error, and You mention "both" Engineer Mountain tars. But there is only one Engineer Mountain Quad. There are two Engineer Mountains, but the second one is in Handies Peak quad. Do you mean that you have a Hermosa Peak, Engineer Mountain (quad), and a Handies Peak quad?Or, when you chose the Engineer Mountain quad at gisdatadepot, you downloaded both files that were offered for Engineer Mountain? I would bet that you did the second.Do you know why there are two choices? One is 10m x 10m DEM and the other is 30m x 30m DEM. And you cannot merge 10m DEM with 30m DEM without following a very specific process.So, how do you know which is which? Under both TAR files are TXT files. Download/open that file and look about 5-15 lines from the top, for the X and Y resolution. It will say either this:X_RESOLUTION: 10
Y_RESOLUTION: 10or this:X_RESOLUTION: 30
Y_RESOLUTION: 30Since 10m x 10m DEM is not available for all locations in the US, and 30m x 30m DEM is, you should be using 30m x 30m DEM.This is the reason for this error. And, if you did not try to merge a mix in a previous version of MicroDem, you would not have seen the error. You can go to http://sd40.topcities.com for information on what you have to do to merge them correctly.>the Glade Mountain quad produced
>a "too many columns" error
>during the merge. At the time I wrote the announcement about the new version, I did insinuate that the number of DEMs that you could merge was unlimited. Since that time, I have found that to be false.MicroDEM has a limit of approximately 8000 rows and 8000 columns. When you start merging 10m x 10m DEM, you use that up very, very quickly. I have no idea how many Quads you were trying to merge, but it was too many. I have found it best to work in a squareer rectangle. Twelve quads in a squareer rectangle (3x4 columns/rows) works better than 12 quads in a straight line. In fact, the chances are very good that if you try 12 in a straight line, you will get that error.Again, if you have not been pushing the limit like it appears was happening here with the previous versions, you would not have received that error.Now, I have provided the sum total of my diagnostic ability on both of these problems. So, if you come back to me and say, "But Lawrence, I was only trying to merge 2 DEM." My response will be re-read the first sentence of this paragraph! Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
NickF (496 posts)
Dec-08-01, 02:44 PM (EST) 12. "RE: Demtutorial" Thanks for the help, Lawrence. I'd not run across a download page that had two sets of TAR files in it, so had no clue what to do. Just knowing that sometimes they put the 10 degree and the 30 degree links on the same page, but don't tell you in an obvious way which is which helps a lot. Now I know what to look for.As for the other issue, I'll try merging using fewer DEM's in the merge and see what happens. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (861 posts)
Dec-08-01, 05:15 PM (EST) 13. "RE: Demtutorial" They don't sometimes put them together. They always put them together, if they exist. In fact, I have seen 3 and 4 TAR.GZ files to select from.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
NickF (496 posts)
Dec-08-01, 05:27 PM (EST) 15. "RE: Demtutorial" As I said, this is the first time I'd seen more than one. Maybe I was just lucky with the quads I was choosing originally; they were all the same format. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (861 posts)
Dec-07-01, 06:18 PM (EST) 4. "RE: Demtutorial" If I was half with it, I would have put all three of these posts in one. But, I'm not, so I didn't.There has been no instructions from anyone to download the new version of MicroDem and start using it. You know why? Because all new procedures are going to have to be written!I now know that it was a mistake to even mention the updating that Dr. Guth had done to MicroDem until I had written the new procedures. I see that now.But just think a moment. This new version obviates the need for XYZMerge. Rich's instructions are instructions for using XYZMerge WITH MicroDem. Wouldn't it stand to reason that there may be a conflict? And there *was* a conflict, which is why you are told where to find MicroDem and to use that version. Until you get that version, you will continue to have problems.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
pennsyfan2 (13 posts)
Dec-07-01, 10:15 PM (EST) 5. "RE: Demtutorial" Lawrence, You seem to be an excitable fellow:-O, but that alright. You also unequivecolly have a better grasp of this terrain building process. But if the rest of us make mistakes and learn something in the processI did follow Rich's instructions and downloaded All the files from your site Http://SD40.topcities.com. the version options i found there were 5.12.6.4(21.5) or 5.03(33)which is the one your site points to at Fort Leanardwood. I installed the 5.1 version in the default folder as Rich said.
I already had 5.03 installed in a different directory.
Since I wasn't getting results with 5.1 , I decided to also try
5.03 just to see how it behaved with the files.As of today. I see Peter has updated to 14.11.6.2 (28mb)I have not used that in conjunction with Rich's guide. Rich has invited me to e=mail him with some specific information.
We'll see what that produces.I'm happy to have made some progress. you can be happy too.As to corrupt Dem data. It very well may be the downloading
process that causes the problems. The usual errors I was getting
was "missing data" "incorrect ???(something)"To better route building!Pennsyfan2 Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (861 posts)
Dec-08-01, 00:06 AM (EST) 8. "RE: Demtutorial" Very simply, your first post confusingly implies that you have been using the new version, which is why I wrote my first response. Your third paragraph is quite confusing about which version you were using. Since the "finicky" aspect of your experience *can* be explained by using the wrong version of MicroDem, I wanted to make sure that you were clear on which version you MUST use.My second post was in direct response to your "It seems to be a crap shoot on whether you get a good dem download" statement. As I said, I have downloaded many, many DEM files from gisdatadepot, and not a one has been problematic. And since the process that Rich explains is the one that I developed after months of terrain modeling, I would say that I probably have a good idea on what is a crap shoot or not.The third post was to clarify about the differences of the two versions of MicroDem that Dr. Guth has created.Oh, and you haven't gotten to see me anywhere *near* excited yet.I realize that this next point is clearly off the topic of this forum, but you know, I have been in communication with Dr. Guth for several weeks now, and I would *never* think of calling him Peter. I also have a personal friend who is a professor at a University. I took classes from him. He and his wife watched my son when I had to go away because of an emergency one weekend. I don't even call him by his first name. I know that Dr. Guth has worked hard to obtain the position he has. Respect for that position would be in order.And you *still* haven't seen me excited yet. Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
pennsyfan2 (13 posts)
Dec-08-01, 02:11 AM (EST) 9. "RE: Demtutorial" Lawrence,I apologize for being less than respectful to Dr Guth. I acted too familiar as you stated.As for the "crap Shoot" Poor choice of words, But the fact remains that microdem and xyzmerge were telling me the *.tar.gz files were not complete or contained bad data. What I discovered was that I was getting truncated files. Either my isp a server, or Internet Explorer's download manager was closing the downloads before I had a full data set. I'll work on resolving that problem.Anyway it's good to know you're out their pounding the turf for us newbies. I still consider myself that in that I don't have a working route(created by me) in my Route folder yet. Someday
sooner with all these new tools!Keep the rails shiny on your line!Pennsyfan2 Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (861 posts)
Dec-08-01, 05:23 PM (EST) 14. "RE: Demtutorial" If your ISP or server truncates data, then blaming MicroDem or DEM-EX is quite inappropriate, which is why I stated that out of the hundreds of files I had downloaded form gisdatadepot, I did not have one fail.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Filip (16 posts)
Dec-08-01, 03:45 AM (EST) 10. "RE: Demtutorial" Hello all,I have been using ver 5.1 Beta / 14.7.19.4 October 2001.First I merged all my dems and then export them in an XYZ to use with Microdem. I got beautiful terrain. Didn't see any abnormalities yet, however I cannot compare it with real pictures etc. Is this the way to do it with this version?Filip.
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rgarber (733 posts)
Dec-08-01, 10:02 AM (EST) 11. "RE: Demtutorial" Filip,Let me answer your question this way. There's a number of ways to add DEM to a route. The way shown in the DEM Tutorial is using LK's process. I think the results are very realistic. But the realism comes from the DEM itself not the process. Maybe the process you are using isn't converting the information the same way LK's does. My suggestion is to give the DEM Tutorial's way a shot at it and see if it works better for you.www.edmfamily.com/msts/index.htm for more information or contact me directly at rgarber@vnet.netWhat the DEM Tutorial does best is to make available a process which was largely vague and ambiguous to many folks like myself. Alot of it you will already know to do, but LK's process has some added features to it that IMO, make it the best for most of us.Hope this helps.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hawk (242 posts)
Dec-08-01, 07:03 PM (EST) 16. "RE: Demtutorial" LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-01 AT 07:04 PM (EST)I have had great (great? Poppycock! Excellent!) results with Rich's Tutorial. I highly recommened it.
He also has an excellent Activity Editor Tutorial over at Abucus. Great detail.
Hawk
"And it comes to be, that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way."
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