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wdperson (10 posts)
Dec-03-01, 01:09 PM (EST) "Laying Track questions." Ok. I am trying to replicate the Erie Lackawanna route from Leavittsburg, Ohio (near Warren, Youngstown, Ohio) all the way to the Ore Docks in Cleveland, Ohio. I have been very successful reading other forum messages to figure out what I am doing wrong and correct the problem. However, I have a few questions that couldn't be answered by doing a search of the forum. What I have done so far is this: imported a terrain using data from gisdatadepot.com, used XYZ merge then the DEM-EX utility and got a nice terrain for my route. I plotted my markers using MakeMarker v3...nice utility except, question 1 is the flags are huge! They are monster size. When I lay the track it is about 1/10 the size of the flag. Any ideas on how to just have the flag without the part on the ground? Secondly, when I lay track it puts it down facing north, no matter what direction I am looking. I have to rotate it to get it the right direction (in this case east). My concern is lining up the tracks correctly. Is there a "hotkey" to rotate the track 90 degrees? I did see the hotkeys "T" and "Y." Which is my next question. Using the Y key that has been documented in the forum here, how do you get this to work? I read about it, but couldn't get it to work. Don't know what I am doing wrong. Do you lay your track and then press the Y key to get the land to raise to the track? If anyone can point me in the right direction, documentation or forum discussions that would be great. I did get the techdocs off the CD. I may not be looking in the right places. I can't imagine what is going to happen when I try to do switches and signals....Mike Riley Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Laying Track questions. NickF Dec-03-01 1 RE: Laying Track questions. wdperson Dec-03-01 2 RE: Laying Track questions. NickF Dec-03-01 3 RE: Laying Track questions. wdperson Dec-03-01 4 RE: Laying Track questions. Hawk Dec-04-01 5 RE: Laying Track questions. wdperson Dec-04-01 6 RE: Laying Track questions. Hawk Dec-04-01 7 RE: Laying Track questions. wdperson Dec-04-01 8 RE: Laying Track questions. NickF Dec-05-01 9 RE: Laying Track questions. LawrenceKellie Dec-05-01 10 RE: Laying Track questions. wdperson Dec-05-01 11 RE: Laying Track questions. LawrenceKellie Dec-05-01 12 RE: Laying Track questions. wdperson Dec-05-01 13 RE: Laying Track questions. Hawk Dec-05-01 14 RE: Laying Track questions. steam4me Dec-10-01 15 RE: Laying Track questions. wdperson Dec-10-01 16 RE: Laying Track questions. steam4me Dec-10-01 17 RE: Laying Track questions. JohnCS Dec-10-01 18

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NickF (497 posts)
Dec-03-01, 01:43 PM (EST) 1. "RE: Laying Track questions." If this is your first attempt at building a route, I have a couple of suggestions, and some help.Suggestions:
Read the thread that Lawrence Kelly started a few days back on advice for new route builders. The quick summary of that thread is to create a single tile route and experiment with it, rather than jumping in at the deep end with a large prototype route. Read the whole thread, though.Spend $15 and get the route builders guide from the Abacus site (www.trainsimulatorworld.com.) It will save you worlds of aggrevation. I've been working on one since MSTS was released, and know a lot of the information already, but I still find it useful.Help:
You can change the size of your track markers by editing the marker file with WordPad. You should see entries that look like
Marker(-104.624496 38.269405 RAIL 2)
The last number is the marker type. The 2 here is a flag which won't obscure the track you're laying.Any piece of track (or road) you put down will always align north/south. You can rotate the track by selectiong the trach piece, then clicking on the Rotate button in the Mode window. Then use the left and right arrow keys on the numeric key pad to rotate the track. Any succeeding pieces, if placed close to the end of an existing piece, will automatically attach to the nearest free end of the existing track.Place your track right on the existing terrain. The Rotate mode will also let you use the numeric up and down arrows to incline the track. Once your track is in place press the Y key while the track is still selected, and the terrain wil conform the the track.Good luck!Nick
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wdperson (10 posts)
Dec-03-01, 07:23 PM (EST) 2. "RE: Laying Track questions." Nick, This is my first major attempt. I have played around with it before, without success. This is the best I have done thus far. I figure that I am going to be learning and this is just a test. I have an original version of my terrain backed up so I am just playing around now. I did read Lawrence's thread. I plan on purchasing the book you mention, just have to do it. I will check my .mkr file to see what the deal is there. Thanks for the information on the north/south thing. I do know you can rotate, I was just worried that if you don't line them up exactly, then you could have some problems. Finally, thanks for the information on the "Y" key thing. Didn't know the exact steps. Thanks.
Mike Riley Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
NickF (497 posts)
Dec-03-01, 09:23 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Laying Track questions." The important thing is to have fun. I'm currently busy learning both TS Modeler and PSP 7 so that I can build some of the objects I need for the prototype. My problem is that now I want to recreate ALL of the prototype objects along the whole route, and I don't think I'll live long enough!Oh well... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
wdperson (10 posts)
Dec-03-01, 10:34 PM (EST) 4. "RE: Laying Track questions." I definately is all about having fun. I tried everything you discussed and can now lay major track. The "Y" key when placing track is awesome. Helps out tremendously. I agree about designing the prototype objects along the way. You can go crazy thinking/designing/developing those objects. If you want to create the route as realistically as possible, then that is important. The route I am doing doesn't go through any major towns for the first 1/2 of the trip then it gets into the Cleveland area. That is going to take some major work in terms of off track objects. I am not sure what I will do. I have video and photos from looking at the line. That will help tremendously with what to do. Designing the route should be a lot of fun. Like you said may never be done, always can improve it.Mike Riley Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hawk (245 posts)
Dec-04-01, 05:43 AM (EST) 5. "RE: Laying Track questions." OK! Here's a dumb question.
Mike, Nick, you refer to markers.
What are they?
It sounds like something I could use on my new "Real World Terrain" route. My first DEMing project.
I'm going to try to replicate the CSX line from Atlanta, Ga. to Chattanooga, Tenn.
Hawk"And it comes to be, that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way."
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wdperson (10 posts)
Dec-04-01, 07:47 AM (EST) 6. "RE: Laying Track questions." Hawk, Markers are used in the Route Editor to help you designate points for important items (track, roads, rivers, etc.). To get the markers in your program you must make a marker file. The marker file ends in a .mkr extension. You can create a marker file manually or by using a utility on Train-Sim. To make a marker file manually see the techdocs on the first MS Train Sim CD. They explain how to do it manually. The utility I use to make my markers is the program MakeMarker V3. It can be found in the file library here on Train-Sim.com. It is a very good program. A few notes and tricks that I use to maximize using the program. 1) I use Street Atlas USA, turn on the Lat/Long grid (this is important to make sure you get accurate representation of your markers on your route). Then I do a screen capture of my map. Import it into MakeMarker and specify the lat/long intersections of my map for my reference points with MakeMarker. Using this technique has helped get the tracks to nearly exact for where they should be. 2) When you enter the lat/long of your 2 points in MakeMarker (when you use this program you will know what I mean). Make sure you are using the correct East/West and North/South points or they won't show up. I made this mistake. Just be sure what your lat/long are and put them in correctly. 3)finally, MakeMarker outputs your file. Rename it the same name as the directory of your route and put it in the main route folder. For example, your route would be called CSX, lets say. Rename the file csx.mkr. Read the documentation that comes with MakeMarker. This program does help. Saves time and helps you replicate your track accurately. If you have more questions post it here, be more than happy to help. I like the thought of the CSX line you are doing. They have a nice CSX SD70MAC in the file library just waiting to be run on your track....Mike Riley Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hawk (245 posts)
Dec-04-01, 06:39 PM (EST) 7. "RE: Laying Track questions." Hey Mike---
Thanks for your reply. I think this is what I'm looking for.
I've been going back and forth between the Route Editor and TopoZone. I've found enough identifiable terrain to start laying track (I even found the hill my house sits on, I think).
It seems the lat. and lon. numbers vary from TopoZone and the Route Editor. This confused me for a bit, but I think I've narrowed down the difference to about 2 or 3 hundred feet. Does that jive?
The terrain in this area can be a little confusing, without any landmarks. Allatoona Lake was a big help, as was the track bed, itself. In conjunction with the pre-40's track bed, I was able to figure out where I was.
Does the MakeMarkerV3 compensate for the variance?
I'd like to make this route as real as possible.
I greatly appreciate your suggestions.
Well, I'm off, again, for more downloads.
Again, Thanks,
Hawk "And it comes to be, that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way."
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wdperson (10 posts)
Dec-04-01, 08:30 PM (EST) 8. "RE: Laying Track questions." Hawk, What I would do is if you can do a screen capture of the TopoZone map that you are looking at and then import it into MakeMarker. After you import it document the 2 lat/long points that it asks for in MakeMarker. This should give you near exact points to lay the track. I tried it and it came up very darn close for me going back and checking the lat/long in my Street Atlas program. Wow. I just checked out that TopoZone site. That is a very good resource to use. I like that fact that you can move your mouse over the map and it tells you the lat/long. Make sure you are using the DD.DDDD format. That is what the route editor uses. Also, go to a setting of 1:25,000 that is the smallest setting you can get. That will help get it to be as exact as possible. Not sure why there are differences in the terrain, TopoZone to Route Editor. If both (TopoZone and Route Editor) are correct, then they should line up correctly. I am beginning to wonder if maybe the DEM data I imported is correct. I imported my terrain to my route and looked at my home town (my route goes through my hometown) and it over exagerates the hills, etc of the area. Makes it look like a mountain. I am going to have to smooth that out. MakeMarker really helps on marking a map up by placing dots on the map and then it converts it into a file that these "dots" become flags in your route editor. You can then determine how to lay your track accurately, quickly and easily. I can see myself laying about 20 to 30 miles of track with the program and doing it accurately as long as you set up your map correctly with accurate lat/long. If you are trying to go for the most accuracy then I would use it. I think that the first time doing this compared to the next route versus the next route you will see major improvements in your own development. I am sure I will see improvement in mine. There will always be things to make it look better.... Check out the program, you will be happy. Mike Riley Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
NickF (497 posts)
Dec-05-01, 00:50 AM (EST) 9. "RE: Laying Track questions." As I recall (my memory gets worse as I get older) JohnCS has several archived threads back in the early days of this forum that discuss the reasons for the differences between what the RGE produces and what the real world is like. You might do a search for those threads. As I best remeber it was finally decided that it's an "undocumented feature" in the RGE, and that nothing could be done about it. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (888 posts)
Dec-05-01, 07:19 AM (EST) 10. "RE: Laying Track questions." The problems you are experiencing of items being off by 200-300 feet, is a known issue in the world of geography and geographical studies. For the most part, the errors are north/south related rather than east/west related.The above information comes from an associate professor of geology, with over 20 years experience, who also programs geography-related software for the manipulation of DEM and other data. For the most part, there is no solution, it has to do with the data.Lawrence
http://sd40.topcities.com
Great things on the horizon!
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wdperson (10 posts)
Dec-05-01, 08:10 AM (EST) 11. "RE: Laying Track questions." If there is a known issue of being off by 200-300 feet, should designers in MSTS account for this by adjusting their design? How much distance does 200-300 feet account for in lat/long. In other words is it .0001 off or .001? How much should you offset it or don't worry about it? Finally, I am coming up with some interesting things in designing my terrain. I got DEM data from gisdatadepot, used XYZ Merge and DEM-EX (all from your site Lawrence, thanks). Got a very nice rolling terrain (rolling Ohio hills). However, (you knew that was coming) with laying my track everything is going good then all of a sudden I come up against a small cliff (not like the one you get when your data is imported incorrectly). I am using MakeMarker V3 and I am using very accurate data with my maps that I import so that it is replicated (lat/long) as accurately as these tools allow. This cliff that I come up against is a small one, maybe 15-30 foot drop off. What makes it interesting is looking at Topographical maps, looking at photos and talking to people familiar with the area, they say it is flat terrain for the most part. Any tips or tricks to smooth out the terrain? I know about "set height" and "flatten." However, I don't want to do too much editing of the terrain fearing that it will mess up the entire "look and feel" of the terrain. Kind of like why bother importing it if you are just going to reshape the whole area.Mike Riley Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (888 posts)
Dec-05-01, 08:20 AM (EST) 12. "RE: Laying Track questions." There is a difference between a known issue and being able to do something consistently about it--as in the designers of MSTS doing something about it.The problem is that at different parts of the globe, the area of difference is different. Therefore, interpolating that difference, on a global basis (from what I understand), is extremely difficult.Now lets put this in some perspective. When you design a physical railroad route--HO, N, etc.--you do NOT create it with so much precision that items are placed, in scale, to their exact location. In fact, all the layouts that "represent" prototypical routes are incredible modifications of said routes. About the only thing that is prototypical is the name, certainly not the landscape.So, 200-300 feet has never bothered me. Realizing that this error exists, when I am laying track, I have several resources at hand (on screen actually) to which I refer to correct the error.The Cliff that you are referring to is probably caused by a hole in the DEM data. This is a common occurrence which has been remedied. I will be making a post about that shortly.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
wdperson (10 posts)
Dec-05-01, 10:01 AM (EST) 13. "RE: Laying Track questions." so, for the most part then there is no fix for the 200-300 foot difference. Just something you will have to keep checking to see that you are accurate with all available tools. I pretty much do the same thing to make sure I am on target as best as possible with my laying of the track, using tools like Street Atlas USA, MakeMarker and now TopoZone. Combining these tools helps to accurately lay the rail. Look forward to your post on the holes in the DEM data that have been remedied.Mike Riley Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hawk (245 posts)
Dec-05-01, 04:10 PM (EST) 14. "RE: Laying Track questions." LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-01 AT 04:12 PM (EST)I've already learned to work with the slight difference in coodinates by just simply studying the terrain. Luckily, the terrain that I'm working with is pretty obvious, for the most part. I can find the lake, levy, track beds, interstate beds, road beds, and even the hill my house sits on.
I can't wait to try the new Microdem.
Later,
Hawk"And it comes to be, that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way."
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steam4me (29 posts)
Dec-10-01, 06:27 PM (EST) 15. "RE: Laying Track questions." Marker format is
Marker ( DecimalLongitude DecimalLatitude NameMarker MarkerType )egMarker ( 145.570 -38.083 "Nar Nar Goon RS" 1)
will be a Red flag marker with Nar Nar Goon RS at the top of it for identification.Marker 0
Marker 1
Marker 2

Hope this helps.
RegardsYuri.

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MSTS Australian Add-ons site
http://www.railpage.org.au/steam4me/trainsim
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wdperson (10 posts)
Dec-10-01, 09:52 PM (EST) 16. "RE: Laying Track questions." Yuri, Thanks for the information. That does help. I have stuck with using the last of the 3 options for marker flags. The other 2 have the extra big mark that shows up on the land that makes it hard to see where to put your track, roads, etc (at least it is for me). I haven't figured out how to get rid of that part. I doubt that there is a way. Therefore, I just use the 3rd one. It is easier to use.thanks.
Mike Riley Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
steam4me (29 posts)
Dec-10-01, 10:55 PM (EST) 17. "RE: Laying Track questions." >Therefore, I just
>use the 3rd one.
>It is easier to use. Mike,I use "2" for track, "1" for stations and "0" for other landmarks (river, lake, bridge, tunnel entrance etc).That way I can see those major items coming a long way away.
RegardsYuri.

==================================
MSTS Australian Add-ons site
http://www.railpage.org.au/trainsim
==================================
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JohnCS (200 posts)
Dec-10-01, 11:08 PM (EST) 18. "RE: Laying Track questions." Hey Lawrence!Since this has generated into a marker discussion, could you resurect and post on your site Deanville's wpt2mkr (sic) program he posted a long while back? This converted microdem waypoint files to msts markers files. Using GEOTIFFs in microdem is my prefered way to mark waypoints - just check the referencing: the last batch I worked with was off by 0.002 degrees - enough to throw a serious kink in the works without first offsetting the markers in excel.To check the referencing align the pointer in micordem with one of the grid lines on the geotiff and note any difference. (note this has only been a pbm on 2 out of the MANY geotiff's I've used. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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