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LawrenceKellie (765 posts)
Nov-27-01, 12:51 PM (EST) "Thoughts for New Route Builders" I believe it was Charles Kuralt--news commentator--who said something like, "One man's opinion" in regard to his opinions. What you are about to read is also "one man's opinion," though not the opinion of Charles Kuralt.We have some new route builders who have been asking lots of questions. That's good. New and old have all asked the same questions. And one of the joys of this forum is the ability to perform searches (you just *knew* I had to put that in, didn't you). Most of the time, if you perform a search AND check the Archive check box, you will find the answer to your question.But that wasn't the reason for this post. The reason for this post is ::drum roll please:: route sizes.Probably all of us who create routes have fallen into this syndrome, I know that I have! And that is we are so excited about building a route that we want to build a BIG one! And it must be prototypical! With all the exactitude that we can muster.But you know what? There is a skill level that is really necessary to produce a smooth and interesting route that takes time and practice to produce. Allow me an example. On one of the routes I am creating, I have laid down about 450 miles of track. As I compare the later track laying with the earlier track laying, I see an incredible difference! And I thought my early attempts were good. However, the practice of laying that much track has given me the ability to produce, at least to some degree, some track that is quite smooth to travel over.I see the new builders wanting to create these BIG routes, and I wonder, are they going to go the way of several before? There are several names (people) who are missing from posting here. They were pioneers to route development. Where are they? I have no idea. But I know that some are not here because they became disillusioned over the time it takes to create a large route. But if you have created physical model railroad routes, how much time does *it* take? Hours upon hours.We look at the default routes that came with MSTS and notice their problems. Those problems are in ~600 miles of track! The time that it takes to produce a "problem-free" route of over 600 miles is incredible. (And I am not--sheesh, I wish I could just write without having to make these types of disclaimers--saying that what MS/KUJU did is right, I'm just trying to put this into perspective.)What those of us who have stuck around have learned is to start small! Let me give you an example from my own experience.Like many of you new route builders, I wanted to create a prototypical route. I got my camera out, drove and walked the route, took photos. I learned how to terrain model using DEM data. The route wasn't really that long, only about 30-40 miles of track. At that time, it took a LONG time to terrain model with DEM data. Since then, I along with others have developed short cuts to use. Then it came to laying track, and every time I pressed the "y" key, I saw some of that hard-fought DEM-terrained landscape being sculpted away. It was like cutting off a finger every time. And the real down side to this is that you only have one undo! of the "y" key. This really hurt.I didn't know what to do.Then it dawned on me. Start small! Yup. Start small.So I created a one-tile route. And I started building. I practiced terrain modeling by hand. I practiced grades. I practiced scenery. I practiced sound regions. I practiced, practiced, and practiced. In fact, you can go to this thread and see some screenshots of the route. http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=834&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes.So start small. Don't jump right in on a big route. You *will* burn out.Lawrence Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders NickF Nov-27-01 1 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders Nalle13 Nov-27-01 2 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders rdamurphy Nov-27-01 9 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders henry3 Nov-27-01 3 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders rdamurphy Nov-27-01 4 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders rgarber Nov-27-01 5 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders NickF Nov-27-01 6 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders Vern Nov-27-01 7 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders rdamurphy Nov-27-01 8 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders NickF Nov-27-01 10 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders Vern Nov-28-01 11 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders tomkrist Nov-28-01 12 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders rdamurphy Nov-28-01 13 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders trueman Nov-28-01 15 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders trueman Nov-28-01 14 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders crow357 Nov-28-01 16 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders rgarber Nov-28-01 17 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders LawrenceKellie Nov-28-01 21 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders CSXALine Nov-28-01 18 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders SR1950 Nov-28-01 19 RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders LawrenceKellie Nov-28-01 20

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NickF (466 posts)
Nov-27-01, 01:14 PM (EST) 1. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" I agree. I started by creating a small route (about 20 tiles) in the midwest (generally flat terrain) that was semi-prototypical (based on a real branchline where I grew up.) Learned a lot doing that.Then I started on this current 300 tile monster, the D&RGW Ryal Gorge division. Did about 40 miles of mainline, complete with scenery. Learned a lot more.Had a system crash and lost the whole thing. Downloaded the Stony River DEM blank from PeggWare and started a completely fictional Great Northern division on that terrain, just laying track & scenery as I went, to see what problems needed to be solved. Learned even more.Got my Rio Grande backup restored and started modifying things using what I'd learned at Stoney River.Discovered more prototype data and began incorporating that. Bought TS Modeler and have started building custom objects. Having a lot of fun.For those of you potential route builders out there, start small, and be prepared to throw away what you've got and start over. Or if you impatient, as I was, use a small route to learn how to do something, then try it on your masterpiece. Don't get overabmitious, but don't let the sheer size of something put you off either. Had I realized how big this project was going to get I still would have started it. I just would have been more realistic about how much work it is.Remeber that John Allen worked on the Gorre & Daphetid for 30 years, and it still wasn't finished when he died. Like real model railroading, this isn't a project, it's a process. I don't expect to ever finish this, but I don't think I'll ever get tired of it either.I had to quit model railroading because I didn't have room for it. This is a lot more space conserving, and much less limiting. I don't need to approximate the D&RGW; I can build the whole thing, mile for mile (if I live long enough.)Anyway, have fun with it, but backup often.NickF Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Nalle13 (57 posts)
Nov-27-01, 01:27 PM (EST) 2. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" I agree...don't go overboard at once, because as stated above, you'll be burned out cuz' you won't make progress at the rate you expected (not even close). I had to start over a couple of times as my skills increased and my work was suddenly "substandard". I've spent a couple of hundred hours on my route and I haven't even finished the mainline yet (115 miles). OK...some routes might go faster depending on the nature of the terrain, most of my route is up this narrow steep canyon which makes tracklaying VERY timeconsuming indeed. If I'm not precise I might turn a corner and find myself on the wrong side of the river, and to make matters worse most of the tunnels are curved. (28 out of 31 I think). So I'm happy if I can make a few miles per hour!
Oooops...getting carried away here!
My point is that my route is short enough for me to see I'm making progress which helps to keep the interest going.About the "Y"-key...
If you have a backup of your route with untouched DEM'ed terrain you can get it back by just copying the tiles in question to your route. Then you will have virgin terrain again with all tracks intact. Nalle Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rdamurphy (155 posts)
Nov-27-01, 06:04 PM (EST) 9. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" I know exactly what you need, replacing tiles became a necessity of 'survival'. On the Moffat Tunnel route, many tunnels have been "daylighted" or blasted into cuts. HOWEVER many tunnels, which are tiny, very short and not much over them have been left in place. Mostly as snowsheds. Doesn't make much sense, and the maps sometimes show daylighted tunnels as tunnels, and other maps don't show the tunnels that are short. Got real confusing to get through the tunnel district. And give this some thought: The Moffat Tunnel is 6.2 miles long and loses 500 feet in elevation, is straight, and has to come out at the right place on the other end. And no, I'm not going to shorten it, it has a 40 mph limit, a grade up and a grade down, and takes ten minutes to pass through...Rob Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
henry3 (297 posts)
Nov-27-01, 01:28 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" Lawrence,Thanks for the benefit of your insight. When (IF?) I ever get around to starting a route, I could easily see myself falling into the size trap."A wise man learns from his mistakes. A really wise man learns from the experience and mistakes of others."Henry Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rdamurphy (155 posts)
Nov-27-01, 02:18 PM (EST) 4. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" I have to agree, I kept the Moffat Tunnel route down to 50 miles, and I can see the light at the end of the Tunnel
It certainly looks like it will be finished in the near future. One question though, while it would be feasably possible to reproduce every tree, rock, signpost, etc., is that really necessary? There would certainly be times when shortcuts are in order, for instance, limits on the number of objects within a tile preclude the dense forests of the Rocky Mountains. And I don't see any way to reproduce the jagged rocks and cliffs, not to mention the tunnels which use various linings depending on the rock conditions at that particular point. And we won't even discuss the fifteen miles of track through Denver and the Suburbs! So, as a practicing pragmatist, I am trying to create a route which captures the spirit of the prototype, hopefully it will be a welcome addition to the default and non-protype routes out there. What do you think? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (654 posts)
Nov-27-01, 02:49 PM (EST) 5. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" I would like to say that I happily... *realizing I might be jumped on for using an ungrown brain, places gag in mouth* gmmueeghh fjmmmuuhff eeerffmmeelpph.. memeuuffmph.. mmuuttleahl!Thank youRich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
NickF (466 posts)
Nov-27-01, 03:56 PM (EST) 6. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" Well said, Rich. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Vern (68 posts)
Nov-27-01, 05:02 PM (EST) 7. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" Wise words indeed.My Stranraer route had the distance immediately halved on first loading up the route editor (originally I was going to run it from Glasgow, but settled for Ayr). However the experience gained in doing that route stood me in good stead and gave me the confidence to tackle Inverness to Wick, which totals 168 miles if you include the Thurso branch.As regards terraforming, well for UK routes there is no DEM data readily available so it's all done freehand. That's not as bad as it sounds, however, and I like to think I have become a dab hand at whipping up a hill to 100m height at 2 degrees with a 4 degree "tump" to 150m on top. As regards accuracy, my advice is do the best you can but I'm reminded of a post I read earlier on the Trainsimfiles forum and I quote, "I would say that anyone who says they have created or can create an exact replica of a route,is either a liar or a fool."Now maybe that's rather extreme but after agonising for about 2 hours over whether I've got County March Summit 400m to the east of where it should be, or 10m below the height above sea level etc., I got to thinking - is anyone *really* going to know as you flash by at 60MPH? My primary concern is to get the track profile - gradient and curvature about right, then the terrain. After that come the little details but trying to place each tree or fence line across a field would be impossible. The route would be finished in 2010 by which time we will be on MTS Version 6, or something.So do the best you can - if it looks about right then it probably is right. We are working off DEM data, maps, cab ride videos with a fixed view and maybe fuzzy photos. We all have different standards of perfection and despite what I've just said, mine are still quite high. However don't knock yourself out with every little detail. Maybe place little dioramas at key locations, perhaps where you have a good photograph. If you're working with the default MS items then straight away it's not 100% accurate. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rdamurphy (155 posts)
Nov-27-01, 05:56 PM (EST) 8. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" A CAB RIDE VIDEO! That's exactly what I need! Anyone know where I can find one???Rob Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
NickF (466 posts)
Nov-27-01, 06:48 PM (EST) 10. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" Rob,Can't help you with your stretch, but Douglas County Public Library system has a cab ride tape through the Glenwood Canyon, so there may be one available somewhere in the state library system for the Moffat division. If ya gotta local library card they can get you anything from any library in the state.NickP.S Still stuck in Pueblo, but Mike's building steel mill components for me <grin!> Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Vern (68 posts)
Nov-28-01, 02:56 AM (EST) 11. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" AFAIR there are two series of cab rides covering the Moffat route. Might be worth checking out someone like Cajon Rails or McMillan (sorry, haven't got the links) as to availability. Just been down to the bookshelf and checked, Part One Denver to Moffat Tunnel is a joint Greg Scholl/Railway Productions effort. Part 2, Rollins to Radium is from Railroad Video Productions (released through Steam Powered Video in the UK).Hope this helps. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
tomkrist (55 posts)
Nov-28-01, 06:58 AM (EST) 12. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" I am sure there is a difference in if you make a "real" route, or if you are making a fantasy route. In a fantasy route, you are abel to change your "beginner" stadium, where everything
is just messed up, in a real route, this can be more problems for you. Anyway, i just want to tell you how i do this work. I know it is recommended to do this , like start to lay tracks, end with laying object and roads...etc. I don't do that, because i think it is fun to test the route i am building on, so how do i do it?
I add everything from the tracks i am laying, putting things here and there. Its a fantasy route, so its just my fantasy who says what should be there and there. If i make a mountain you have to pass over, i just make that finish at once, then finaly, maybe a station here? Ok, go ahead...hehe. On that way i can experience with new stuff, like learning how to get a nice bridge, or make some sea. However, i don't add the signals , i'll wait to do that until when i think the route is finish.I am sure everyone here do the things on their own way.Just to give me your opinion. My point is that i hate to receive a UNFINISHED route with NO objects. Thats go's right down in my
trash,hehe. About the BIG sizes of the route:Whats REALLY frustates me, is the BIG sice that every routes
have. Like taking backup of mine, using 1.5 gb of my poor SLOW harddisk.What makes me MAD of this is the following: You use
the DAMN same FILES almost on every add on route, so the things that i have copyed from another route, is the same files i use. The only different is WHERE the file is located! So what we should have done, is to contact a GOOD hacker and try to crack the part where tells the trainsim where the files is. It can't be that difficult??? Do you remember the assign command we used in the DOS? Jepp, it was just to make a mirror of your harddisk and to convince your pc that if it is looking for a file, and dont find it, then it should look on a different place, the place you used the assign command. How can this be impossible in windows? Here i think we have taken a HUGE step BACKWARDS. There is people out there who is good enough to find something out, but we have to get a smart one to do this. T.K
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rdamurphy (155 posts)
Nov-28-01, 12:34 PM (EST) 13. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" 1.5 GIG HARDDISK? I have seen 80 Gig hard drives advertised for just over a saw-buck! I keep hearing complaints about disk space and dial up modems. I personaly downloaded Service Pack 4 for Microsoft Visual Studio at 140 MEGS on a 28.8k connection, 14 files at 10 megs apiece! Just do it overnite! Some of the Patches for my other games are over 60 to 80 MEGS, a lot of hard-core gamers will spend hours downloading a map from another just so they can play multi-player. Quake Arena, Unreal-Tournament, Star-Trek Elite Forces comes to mind. Man, this is the twenty first century, DOS is dead, floppies are obsolete and CD-Roms are getting there. Visual Studio.net, the new programming tools from MS aren't even going to be available on CD, DVD ONLY. There is a general rule in computing, if your computer has less than half the speed of the newist processor, you are obsolete! Right now, that is 1 GIG folks! Do you really expect MS and others to write games based on a 133mhz Pentium with 16 megs of Ram when the newest out is a 2 Gig P4 with a half a gig of Ram?Whew, deeeeep breath now...Rob Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
trueman (27 posts)
Nov-28-01, 02:21 PM (EST) 15. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" I don't think Tom is suggesting that we go back to DOS. He is just pointing out that certain programming decisions (that lead to the creation of huge files) were kind of stupid.I would be surprised if the next version of MSTS doesn't correct these problems. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
trueman (27 posts)
Nov-28-01, 02:07 PM (EST) 14. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" Excellent advice, Lawrence. Unfortunately, most of us will probably ignore it Your screen shots really show what can be done with a realistic approach to route building. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
crow357 (86 posts)
Nov-28-01, 02:43 PM (EST) 16. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" Great advice. I'm just having fun. I seriously doubt I'll ever share my route for two reasons. Size and nitpickers.I do have about 30 miles of track laid between Barstow and Pisgah, CA.. Sure is fun running trains on that new trackage. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (654 posts)
Nov-28-01, 03:03 PM (EST) 17. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" I just deal with nitpickers by telling them to take it up with Lawrence... works. JUSTTT KIDDING!!! Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (765 posts)
Nov-28-01, 09:09 PM (EST) 21. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" I *do* dislike nitpickers....though I am one. Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
CSXALine (335 posts)
Nov-28-01, 03:07 PM (EST) 18. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" I agree totally Lawrence,When I first started out i wanted to go all out and create an exact replica of where i lived, but as time passes i see that i can make a reasonable facsimile but not 100% accurate.
and besides it's my route - i can build it however i want.
so if you get a nitpicker, well let them have a go at the route editor and see what they can do - if they do a better job COOL
if not dont worry about it.
or do like Rich does :O)(Kidding)
Jason Webb
The Seaboard Coast Line/CSX A Line from Tampa Florida to Jacksonville, FL
http://sclcsxaline.cjb.net/
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SR1950 (54 posts)
Nov-28-01, 08:52 PM (EST) 19. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" Dittos, Lawrence!(Yeah, I'm a Rush fan ::ducks and runs:I've downloaded all the DEM tiles for my local area, and DEM-Ex (sp?), but I haven't got the nerve to try to d/l that 20 MB of that whopper MicroDEM! I guess I'll have to do it one morning around 3:00 AM so my 28.8 connection will hack it without crashing.Meanwhile, I got Kern Pegg's Route That Wasn't and have started playing with that. It's really not that big but I have been laying track like a gandy dancer on bennies! No plan.. no real goal.. just laying track. Put in several lumber camp sidings, and a few coal mine sidings. Trying my hand with bridges (I have three places where tracks cross over each other), playing with scenery. Same stuff I'd be doing on an HO pike. The railroad doesn't even have a name yet!If I don't like something, rip it out and start over!Bottom line, it's a very excellent learning experience, and I'm getting scads of info from you guys as well.I don't have room for a model RR layout, so MSTS is my "layout on a hard drive". Bugs and all, I am enjoying myself.And thanks for your mentorship, folks! Lew
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LawrenceKellie (765 posts)
Nov-28-01, 09:08 PM (EST) 20. "RE: Thoughts for New Route Builders" BTW, if you want to use XYZMerge, you will find the proper link to MicroDem at http://sd40.topcities.com. And, this version is a 30MB download! Unfortunately, XYZMerge will not work with the 20MB version.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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