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McCloud_River_John (19 posts)
Nov-21-01, 09:18 PM (EST) "EMRR - Mystery Train" I just installed version 1.1 and had the strangest thing happen. I cruisin along, green singal all clear as far as the eye can see. Outta of nowhere appears two 38's and a short freight coming right at me, and whammo head-on. Now I wasn't hitting the sauce either.Anyone?John Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: EMRR - Mystery Train sniper297 Nov-21-01 1 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train rgarber Nov-21-01 2 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train lnghairedwizard Nov-21-01 3 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train sniper297 Nov-22-01 4 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train rgarber Nov-22-01 5 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train sniper297 Nov-22-01 6 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train Boweavel Nov-22-01 7 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train rgarber Nov-22-01 8 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train rgarber Nov-22-01 9 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train Boweavel Nov-22-01 10 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train sniper297 Nov-22-01 11 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train rgarber Nov-22-01 12 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train sniper297 Nov-22-01 13 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train rgarber Nov-22-01 14 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train McCloud_River_John Nov-22-01 15 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train lnghairedwizard Nov-22-01 16 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train rgarber Nov-22-01 17 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train lnghairedwizard Nov-22-01 18 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train sniper297 Nov-22-01 20 RE: EMRR - Mystery Train Boweavel Nov-22-01 19

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sniper297 (896 posts)
Nov-21-01, 09:39 PM (EST) 1. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Yeah, I heard that one before. Blow up this little balloon, you can tell it to the Judge. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (590 posts)
Nov-21-01, 09:56 PM (EST) 2. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Well.. I'll tell ya.. there is a legend about this... the old #9. No joke. Back in the early days before the EMRR existed, the E&J had a saying... outta da blue.. ole #9 gonna get ya. Anyway, it about 1913 when short coal train pulled by a consolidation left Lutherlex. It wasn't Lutherlex then, it was Bainesville Mining. Ole man Baines, that's what they used to call him, was a real task master. Though he didn't own the E&J, he acted like he did. One needed the other. This one day, ole #9 was slightly late getting in and ole man Baines blew a gasket. He rushed the cab and startled the engineer. Well, starteled, the engineer flew all over Baines and they started a fight. The fire was still hot and the fireman didn't stay in the cab and rushed to get some help. Ole #9 somehow started on its own. They think the fireman must caught the Johnson Bar or whatever they call it and pulled it or something. #9 wasn't heavily laden.. and off it went. Before the engineer knew it, Ole #9 was off and running. The track was different then, it didn't go up the hill like it does now so #9 couldn't be catched. The last they saw of #9 was flying past Woodberry, south. They telegraphed down to Big City as phones were hard to rig through rural areas like that but no one in Big City ever saw #9. So they combed the rails, but the engine and small consist was never found. So they say. But every now and then, when its dark, the moon is nowhere to be seen. They say you can hear the whistle of #9. Legend has it she still rides the track. Yah, it's true. The legend of ole #9....Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
lnghairedwizard (247 posts)
Nov-21-01, 10:14 PM (EST) 3. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Hmmmmmm....Ole #9 ehhhhh??????Perhaps "Ole #9" is out there roaming the East Metro in a future activity...hehehe "Ole Longhairedwizard" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (896 posts)
Nov-22-01, 00:12 AM (EST) 4. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Geez, Rich, and to think you were the guy I was looking up to as a signalling expert. I got mine working sort of, I thought, but whatever illogical logic the signals use has some kind of incestuous relationship with the activity editor, and the AI trains (There's an oxymoron, any body ever found Artificial "Intelligence" in this game?) frequently ignore signals.
Finished making up the tanker train, gotta run down to Chippewa Falls to pick up some log cars, wait for the AI traffic to pass.
Well, this oughtta be interesting, wonder how the artificial stupidity is gonna work out this stalemate.
Oh. Well, that's one way to do it.Check out this one too, make a grade crossing anywhere you want:
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/673.html Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (590 posts)
Nov-22-01, 00:48 AM (EST) 5. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Now now Jim...I've tried explaining the signals to ye before. I'm watching yer posts on all this but I still say ye missing the big picture on all this.*sigh* I go into this more in depth in that activity thing I did for Abacus. As best as I can explain this and no I can't say for sure is... the way I approach the signals is to not look at them from the prototype.Of the more popular games for railroading, I can't think of one that didn't have trouble with signals. I don't know why this is so. Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (896 posts)
Nov-22-01, 00:59 AM (EST) 6. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" LAST EDITED ON Nov-22-01 AT 01:13 AM (EST)00:48 AM? What are you doing up this time of night? Or I should say morning, it's tommorrow where you are!
And whaddya mean I'm not getting the big picture? You got drunks running all over your route claiming to see ghost trains, obviously the breathalyzer attachments ain't working on your signals either! Anyway, there's an old expression that if your only tool is a hammer, you tend to view every problem as a nail. That sums up Joe Dugan perfectly, and he just can't get interlockings to work no matter how much dynamite he uses. You ever try to work with a road foreman like that? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Boweavel (1293 posts)
Nov-22-01, 08:24 AM (EST) 7. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Roflol..Hammer=Nail... You 2 crack me up every time.... :}Whilst Im here..Can I extract 4 tiles in the route extracto thingy, Without having the 6 default routes installed ? I just want to start a small and simple route, Hopefully one that the editor wont screw up (Now theres wishfull thinking).. Can this be done ? Catchya's Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (590 posts)
Nov-22-01, 10:07 AM (EST) 8. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Bo, you can extract just 1 tile if you want. That's what I did with #11.Now look here Jimbob.. I'm trying to get ya to see something here. Your seeing but your not seeing. You gotta connect the dots and I don't mean path points. Now while it's true the Metro does have a few unsavory characters about, namely our dispatcher... most of the folks using the Metro are getting through the activities without any significant magna displacement as eluded to above. You may notice this does sometimes happen in real life too. Look it's not my fault the dispatcher is related to the farmer's daughter which you stole from me. And you should know from our shared Navy experience that the Navy was the biggest offender for putting the lesser qualified people in the more important positions... kinda makes you wonder whose got the finger on the nukes now, doesn't it? So the poster above had a little teensy weensy widdle bump that forced the relocation of a million residents of Metro City would could have amounted to the next Andromeda Strain sequel. But look at what activity he's on. What activity was that anyway? Looks to me like maybe.. #18????? THE LAST ONE! Shheessh.. PR... it's a job but somebody's gotta do it. Anyway.. so while you're at frisking the farmer's daughter, flirting with Meg in the cab (on the job no less...), we here at the Metro are creating add-ons... uploading fixes... updating web pages... writing the next harlequin novel... creating new routes... did I say harlequin novel??? .... while you're still trying to get the signals to work! *motions to work crew to dive into the newly installed underground bunkers awaiting PO&N incoming* Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (590 posts)
Nov-22-01, 10:09 AM (EST) 9. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Oh.. and the legend of #9 is real.. it's not a story...well.. as real as the metro is anyway.... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Boweavel (1293 posts)
Nov-22-01, 10:16 AM (EST) 10. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" 1 tile wont be big enough for my "small" standards :}So your saying it can be done then ? Cool..I'll give it shotCatchya Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (896 posts)
Nov-22-01, 12:31 PM (EST) 11. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Bo, the geo extractor uses the \train simulator\template folder for it's objects, you can extract a new route without any routes installed at all. Getting more objects into it would be a problem tho. And of course any new route you tried to install wouldn't install correctly due to trying to copy objects from non-existent routes. If you're that desperate for disk space, having even one route based on combined.ref or all objects will work. Just manually copy all the \envfiles \sounds \shapes \textures \terrtex from that route, paste them into the new one. (PO&N4 won't give you all the \terrtex files, 3.1 or emrr will, I was trying to save space on the final install size for 4, so I chopped all the terrain textures I didn't use.) And tell Jak to hurry up, even those of us with 40 gig hard disks need space.Rich, this thing has me talking to myself, if I was trying to do this;I could understand having problems. But trying to get an interlocking working on a simple double-ended siding shouldn't be that complicated, the blasted signals shouldn't be dependent on the paths, and if the AI trains are going to ignore them at their convenience why use signals at all? I've been told you should never see green over green, the heads flip functions vertically for different paths. Fine. I've also been told it is supposed to indicate the track the train is going to take, and does not indicate the position of the switch. It would be a neat trick for a signal to "indicate whether the train will take the diverging path or continue straight ahead" without also showing the alignment of the switch points, but we'll leave that go. The problem is red over red when there's no excuse for it, blocks ahead unoccupied, switch set to straight ahead (which would indicate to me, at least, that the farfignootin train is going to take that path) and sometimes green over flashing yellow (flashing yellow with nothing on the entire route except the player engine, fercrysakes), sometimes green over red, sometimes red over green, sometimes red over red, somebody light a fire under the dispatcher's caboose and wake him up. Hey, there's an idea, what we really need is a player controlled dispatcher window map add-on, end all those stalemates by ordering one of the AI trains to back up and take the next siding. "Sky! Dispatcher", I'd pay cash money for that, Jak! Here's an interesting sequence where I got caught by the Artificial Stupidity dispatcher setting switches immediately after spawning the AI train:
If this guy was paying attention to the signals he shouldn't be in the same block with me. Run run run as fast as you can, you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man! Well, lessee if I can fix this, if I can make it to the next interlocking and the switch hasn't been set to the AI diverging path yet it might work.
Hmm, now I know how he got into the same block I was already in. "Red light? What means red light?" Made it to the next interlocking, switch was still straight, but signal red over red anyway. Hit the tab key, "permission granted" this time. OK, if it's safe for me to go thru this red over red, why was it red in the first place? "Sorry, no habla common sense." I'm gonna trash that dispatcher altogether and buy a parrot, at least I could get more two-way communication.
Oh boy, here we go again. I forgot that this stupid thing doesn't take delays into account, all that screwing around with the southbound made it late, the northbound is already spawned, here comes another head on. Game over.
Nope, this time he wiped the dust off his windshield and saw the red light and stopped. Doesn't do much good tho, stalemate, can't make either of them back up or take another siding, game over anyway.Well, that pretty much sums up "the big picture" for me, unbelievably complicated to get the simplest activity going right, any variations caused by delaying the AI traffic screws the whole thing up, the signals don't make any sense and don't work the same way twice running, forget variety because if the player doesn't make every programmed movement pre-ordained by the activity it's game over. What I really get a kick out of is when I'm stopped waiting for an AI train to pass, somewhere out of sight it collides with another AItrain, game over because "YOUR train derailed". Wasn't mine, I was standing still.Just to set your mind at ease, Rich, I wouldn't really steal one of your girlfriends, I have plenty of my own, and they're MUCH cuter than yours.


My Sweethearts. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (590 posts)
Nov-22-01, 01:07 PM (EST) 12. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Well, true, your girlfriends do look much cuter and friendlier than mine. After all, mine left me. And she was one of them blow-up types on top of that. What can I say I get no respect.Well, first I would say, you can't solve this unconventional problem with unconventional tactics. First, I would get the interval and grade signals out of there. They don't look right for one and I seriously doubt they'll give you the solution you're looking for.Second, I wouldn't put signals on the PO&N anyway. I'm really talking blind on this one because I never really had much time to learn my way around the track plan. Nice scenery though, even if somewhat diversified. The thing is, from what I've seen of the track plan, you didn't have signals in mind to start with. My goal from the very start was to have signals. It maybe that even in the best of circumstances they'll never work on your route. But we've gone the rounds on this before.Third, don't try to create complicated train scenes. It doesn't work unless you put each train on its own track. In a nutshell, it's choreography, not trains. Also, let's take the pictures you got there. While appealing as a visual, real railroads don't run trains for the sake of running trains. I know you know this. While doing your choreography there should be some semblance of prototypical action and I believe you don't see that many trains running on one track like that, typically.What I did on the Metro was to limit the amount of running trains in any given activity. I did this because any time I ever get around NS mainline that run through here, there's nothing ever there. Just empty rail. So taking the size of the Metro into consideration how often would trains be running up and down the line on an hourly basis? That's how I approached it. With the additional tracks in BC and TC, that gives me a few more trains to run. To make it look real I have to be careful I treat the subject matter as such. So having lots of trains is out. While you say the signals shouldn't be tied to the path of the train, you got two problems. First, the signals are tied to the path of the train. Second, in that Kuju gave us the luxury of dropping trains anywhere on to the tracks at any time changes the way they approached signaling. From our perspective, since they didn't tell us how they changed from the prototype means we're stuck with figuring it out. I haven't gotten it all figured yet that's for sure. That's why for now, it's gonna be choreography.If you do a search in the Actvity forum from way back, you'll see that's what they came up with back in the early days. I'm just repeating and doing what they said, and so far, it works, albeit it takes forever to do an activity because of such. *sigh* I hear ya.. but.. that's what we got.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (896 posts)
Nov-22-01, 02:46 PM (EST) 13. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Yeah, real bummer, unless somebody comes up with a bug fix, or preferably a new utility, we're stuck with simple junk traffic. Just to blow off steam I've been playing with it from the other end, check this out:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/4387.html Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (590 posts)
Nov-22-01, 03:01 PM (EST) 14. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Looks to me like those two good looking engines were just rubbing noses like Eskimoes.. they can do that ya know... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
McCloud_River_John (19 posts)
Nov-22-01, 03:56 PM (EST) 15. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" OK, I'm headed for a 12 step program NOW! And I swear I've never worked for the Santa Fe, that was my brother!It happenned again! I running the commuter train, and a pair of 38's take off in front of me. 'bout a mile down the track, they come to a stop. I ram it into emergency and wham they vanish!John Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
lnghairedwizard (247 posts)
Nov-22-01, 05:49 PM (EST) 16. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" RE> PO&N not needing signals.Actually, It's possible to create kewl activities involving lots of AI traffic that "borrows" the players path from time to time. but for meets,...unless you want to have the player pull into a siding then back up a little then the AI train will almost always stop short of the passing siding so I WOULD like to see signals on the PO&N as its a kewl route to write activities to.If I may shamelessly plug my work here....I have a PO&N tank train activity (one using default engines/cars since the servers are down, and another using southern pacific SD40s and PO&N rolling stock) which Im finishing as we..(I,...Anyway...LOL) speak that will have a "shameless" amount of AI trains, some of which you will have to wait on. (when needed, I just have the "Dispatcher" inform the player to pull into a siding and wait for a scheduled higher priority train and to "back up just a bit to bunch up the slack or some other such BS)I'll post when its done and either have a URL for it or I'll e-mail it to whom ever is interested.LonghairedwizardBTW Rich,... My Dad Invented your girlfriend whom left you. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (590 posts)
Nov-22-01, 06:05 PM (EST) 17. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" oh my gosh! Not here too!!!! ARRRRRHHHH!!! Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
lnghairedwizard (247 posts)
Nov-22-01, 06:07 PM (EST) 18. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" ROFLMAO......Bill Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (896 posts)
Nov-22-01, 08:04 PM (EST) 20. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" McCloud River, I think you better check that mesquite brush you been smoking, I think there's something in it.
Well, just to avoid driving Rich schizoid, I'll refrain from posting pics of it in a post that's supposed to be talking about that ho-hum route of his, I got some screengrabs for a variation of a Texas Tea workorder I was playing with. That's what the pics above were based on Rich, assemble the oil cars, run engine-only down to CF to pick up some log loads, run back to TT to add them to the consist before heading for Combs Landing and Stevens Point. The southbound C&NW with the empty log flats was supposed to go by while I was still switching at TT, but it got held up for some reason (that dispatcher map add-on needs a train tracer or god's-eye view to find out why the #$%@#! these AI trains stop where there's no reason to) and then followed me out of the passing siding, and I couldn't get into the next one cuz the auto switches were already set for it's path. And of course with all the diesel pattycake playing around we were both late, and the loaded log train leaving CF had already spawned and run up to the tie in with the main. I suppose I'll have to make a wait order for all but the first AI trains, no, I didn't originally plan the PO&N for AI traffic, but the dedicated passing tracks, hidden spawning points, and all that stuff should work, I'm not looking to create the double saw-by here, that would be beyond an AI engineer, just simple meet or overtake with one train at a time.
Any idea what effect that "player drivable path" checkbox is supposed to do? I think it somehow affects how and when the auto switches are set up, but the AI trains seem to wait until the player train passes the converging point before they do anything at all. While I was hunting for the answer to this one, I ran across yet another example of the uselessness of the help files; --------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer-controlled trainsComputer-controlled trains must either join the route, leave the route altogether, or have a looping path.To join a route1. Right-click on one of the gray end points on either a siding or the main line of a route.
2. Choose Join Route Here.
Note: This option is only available when creating a computer-controlled train.To leave a route· Create the path in such a way that the path end point corresponds to one of the gray track section end points.To create a looping path1. Place a start point for the computer-controlled train.
2. Set any desired path points to direct the train’s path.
3. Place a reverse point and any necessary path points so that the train is heading back through the start point.
4. Right-click the start point and choose Return to Start Point.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm, get the feeling the help files were written in a hurry, and the rush out the door left in references to things that didn't make it into the final product? Maybe this has something to do with the end point signals the tech doc talks about. You ever seen a 3 light BNSF head? I can't find one.
Oh yeah, Rich, about going schizo - you know you been working too hard on this kind of stuff when you start writing poetry.Roses are low,
Violets are high,
I'm Schizophrenic,
and so am I.Burma Shave Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Boweavel (1293 posts)
Nov-22-01, 07:53 PM (EST) 19. "RE: EMRR - Mystery Train" Thanks Jim.. I extracted 4 tiles and packed it full of EMRR goodness.. And then MSTS decided to take out my computer..
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID6/2445.html#4Ive had it...Catchya's Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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