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sniper297 (876 posts)
Nov-16-01, 11:11 AM (EST) "Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" I'm fully convinced the blasted things are posessed by demons or poltergeists. Once again trying to add signals to the PO&N, having no luck at all. It would help tremendously if signals didn't have this incestuous relationship with the service paths, that may be part of the problem. I'm currently testing it with no AI traffic at all tho. Here's a simple setup I'm working on, if I can get it to work with just the player service, the AI traffic will take the bottom track, routing it completely around the switching area:Oddly enough I noticed that if there is a switch beyond the first switch, there is an option for where you want to link the signal:I set it for the first one of course, that being where the opposite facing signal is, for some reason it don't link to the signal itself. And if the second head is necessary for the link, what does the first head do? Anyway, I set up an activity with a reversing point so the player service path goes all the way thru all the signal points. Going in the wrong direction, I get this:Note that both signals are red, so the switch must not be set for either track. Backing up to go in the original direction of the path works - sort of.Yellow approach? All the rolling stock in the activity is contained within this block, I know for a fact that the track beyond this signal is clear all the way to the end of the line. So why the hell isn't it green? Earlier experiments combining interlocking with intervals produced the same thing, go 10 miles beyond where there are no more signals and you're still in a reduced speed zone. As if that wasn't bad enough, running past the yellow to the reverse point and changing to forward direction, I get this:Hmmm, two red lights, can't take either track. Game over.Let's pool our knowledge folks, anybody knows how to fix even some of this start posting tutorials, and you'll become an overnight hero to the struggling masses.
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... Boweavel Nov-16-01 1 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... zander Nov-16-01 2 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... GaryG Nov-16-01 3 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... sniper297 Nov-17-01 4 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... sniper297 Nov-17-01 5 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... dvdhoven Nov-18-01 7 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... brooksy Nov-18-01 6 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... zander Nov-18-01 8 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... sniper297 Nov-18-01 9 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... brooksy Nov-19-01 10 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... dvdhoven Nov-19-01 11 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... davidbeach Nov-19-01 12 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... sniper297 Nov-19-01 13 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... rdamurphy Nov-19-01 14 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... rdamurphy Nov-19-01 15 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... zander Nov-20-01 16 RE: Anybody know how to do an exorc... rdamurphy Nov-20-01 17

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Boweavel (1275 posts)
Nov-16-01, 11:20 AM (EST) 1. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" I'll second that.. I havent dared attempt to place signals on my add-on of East metro..even tho theres signals on it. I tried with PO&N and it just wouldnt go... "I need a hero !! " Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
zander (24 posts)
Nov-16-01, 02:54 PM (EST) 2. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" Sorry for my english -I am german but to catch your demons you need o lot more signals. Using doublehead interlock you need for full Al-train running 8 double head and 13 single head interlocks.
Divide your track in bloks between each signal and the next switch point and you will solve the problem . If you are following very very stupid the remarque from signalmann http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForum/D6/1393.html.
Instead of using double head you can save signals using triple heads 1 count 3 and still one doublehead.Good luck ! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
GaryG (31 posts)
Nov-16-01, 11:34 PM (EST) 3. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" Hi Sniper297Sorry, I'm not a signalling expert.Unrelated to the topic but what loco is this cab in? Is it
downloadable 'cuz it certainly is a nice layout.GaryG
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sniper297 (876 posts)
Nov-17-01, 00:12 AM (EST) 4. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" LAST EDITED ON Nov-17-01 AT 00:17 AM (EST)Thanks for the tip, Zander, I'm currently giving that a try. And your English is a heck of a lot better than my German, cuz I no habla Espanol and nicht sprekenzie Deutch in spite of trying to learn both over the years, I got no head for languages at all.Hmmm, Gary, I dunno what engine it's actually supposed to be in, I would guess an F45. It's an add on cab from the file library, here's the dope:Microsoft Train Simulator - Cabs
MSTS EMD F45 Cab< Download | View >
Name: f45cab.zip Size: 3,280,727 Date: 11-05-2001 Downloads: 1471
MSTS EMD F45 Cab. A custom cabview for EMD's F45/FP45 locomotives. Includes upgraded CVF "alias" file and modified .eng file. By Graeme Cox.I don't have an F45 engine, but I thought it was awful pretty, so I hacked Cadman's PO&N SD-40 # 18 for the new cabview. I know it's not the right cabview for the SD40, but it's so neat looking who cares. My 12 year old is currently using it as the cabview for Thomas the Tank Engine, and I figure if he can use it on a steamer I can certainly use it on the wrong diesel. After downloading and following the directions for the install, open up the .eng file for the engine you want to hack in wordpad, do an "edit, find" for cvf, that will get you to the section that references the cabview, looks something like this:CabView ( gp38.cvf )Change that so it looks like:CabView ( f45.cvf )You need to copy the f45.cvf file into the cabview for the engine you're hacking, obviously, and the f45.cvf aliases the views from the alias folder you create following the readme, so you can delete all the other files in the cabview folder to save space if you decide to keep the view. I'm keeping it and converting others, it's my favorite so far, altho the new alco cab comes in a pretty close second:Ain't it great we got some geniuses that finally figured out that cab editor? Doggone thing beat me up every time I tried to use it! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (876 posts)
Nov-17-01, 10:53 AM (EST) 5. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" I added a bunch of interval signals, beyond and between, and I still get problems. After passing the interlocking going from 2 tracks to one track, the signals are both red, so you can't reverse and get back in. Running all the way to the next interlocking and reversing sometimes resets the previous one, but that don't always work either. All this is with a lone engine, no other consists or traffic. The approach versus clear logic don't work consistently either, sometimes green sometimes yellow approach. According to the techdoc the hack for this is:"The final part of describing a signal type is to give the minimum number of signals ahead which would need to be enabled in order for the player to see the least restrictive indication (given that the track is clear). If the player never sees the clear indication, this is a sign that this value is too low. SignalNumClearAhead ( 4 )"I don't get that, the value is too low if you never see a clear indication? It would seem to me that if it gives the MINIMUM number ahead, then a value of zero would mean it was always clear, ininity would be never clear. Unless low/high - minimum/maximum have changed definitions while I wasn't looking.
That's in the sigcfg.dat file, hacking that number don't seem to change anything that I can see. I also don't have 3 light heads in track objects as far as I can tell. The signal script gets even muddier:opp_sig_mr ( // Returns most restrictive state/indication (SIGASP_ value)
fn_type) // Signal head function type (SIGFN_ value)
opp_sig_lr ( // Returns least restrictive state/indication (SIGASP_ value)
fn_type) // Signal head function type (SIGFN_ value) Get state of next opposing signal (i.e. the signal controlling entry into this
block from the opposite direction).
Returns SIGASP_STOP if no signal head of the specified function type is identified.
Search along the track ahead for signal heads of type fn_type until a signal head
of type end_type is found, or until the switched track ahead can no longer be
followed. Signal heads of type fn_type at the start signal and the end signal
are included. If any encountered signal head with function type fn_type or
end_type is linked, then this link is checked against the state of the linked
switch - if it is not set as required by the link (see 'route_set' for further
description) then it is ignored.I don't have an "end_type" either, and why the hell would the Eastbound signal for a given block be affected by the Westbound signal controlling entry into that same block? Wouldn't both real world signals check occupied/unoccupied state for the block independently?
All I'm looking for is simplicity, and this thing is complicated beyond belief. Interlocking trailing point (approaching double track from single) indicates switch thrown for straight or curve, no restrictions. Intervals show green for two blocks ahead clear, yellow if next block is clear and the one ahead of that is occupied, and red if the next block is occupied. I would prefer restricted or stop and proceed so you could drop a cut of cars in that block and come back to pick them up later, I had portions working that way once but again it's not consistent. You know, I'm going to go ahead and post this in case someone has any ideas, but it just occured to me I need to copy all this and paste it into an email to Hank. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dvdhoven (173 posts)
Nov-18-01, 03:30 AM (EST) 7. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" Hi,One wild idea. Can the signals not be fooled by adding a numberplate?
Numberplate signals are always permissive.
But I don't know if the Route Editor let you place them on junctions and switches.Dick van den Hoven Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
brooksy (21 posts)
Nov-18-01, 01:12 AM (EST) 6. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" Greetings,
I can't help you with your question, way beyond me and even the English English has me baffled. What I would like to know, and may understand, is an explanation as to what appears to be weeds growing on the track bed in the screen shots. Can you tell me what this is as it looks quite realistic and I would like to make use of it?
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zander (24 posts)
Nov-18-01, 03:43 AM (EST) 8. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" I think i understand no your problem better ! If you go back - you go back in a block which was ocupied by yourself . If you do it with an activity and an retour point it should work whenn your signals are placed in strong logique. ?? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (876 posts)
Nov-18-01, 05:01 PM (EST) 9. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" Thanks for the feedback, guys. Yeah, Zander, that's the whole problem, if you switch to an external view the interval signals facing the other way change to green or yellow after you pass (usually, again the blasted things are not consistent!), so you can back up into the block you just left. Unless you leave a cut of cars in that block, of course. Then the signal stays red, and yeah, Dick, the gradient plate I think is the one that lets you go thru a red interval at 20 mph. Unfortunately the intervals are usually flashing yellow with a 40 mph speed restriction, and once you pass thru one of those you're in a restricted speed zone forevermore. I tried putting in mileposts with speed enabled and resume speed signs, don't seem to have any effect. The interlockings for the switches are what are really giving me fits tho, and they are unfortunately absolute signals.Anyway, since nobody knows what I'm talking about, here's the way I think they should work, any real hoggers out there feel free to correct me if I have any of this signal logic wrong.
The top light should show block occupation, the bottom should show which way the switch is thrown. The bottom is only a switch indicator on the doublehead, when it's red it only indicates that the switch is thrown for the curve, and is non-restricting.
A truth table would look something like:
Green over green: Switch set for straight, 2 blocks ahead unoccupied
Yellow over green: Switch set for straight, 1 block ahead unoccupied
Red over green: Switch set for straight, block ahead occupied
Green over red: Switch set for curve, 2 blocks ahead unoccupied
Yellow over red: Switch set for curve, 1 block ahead unoccupied
Red over red: Switch set for curve, block ahead occupiedPossibly some prototype roads use 3 signals in this case, but when I used to do this on model railroads the top signal was linked to the bottom, so it displayed the status of the track that the switch was set for, ignoring the other track since you can't drive onto it anyway. Maybe the below diagram will clear up some of these muddy KUJU waters.
The double head signals on the single tracks are indicating two things, status of the blocks ahead - THROUGH THE TRACK THAT THE SWITCH IS LINED UP FOR - and position of the switch. The trailing point signals, tr1 and tr2, are unlinked single head interlocking signals. These are supposed to work something like integrated circuit and/or gates, if the switch is aligned with the track they're controlling they become regular interval signals, returning green yellow or red depending on the status of the blocks beyond. If the switch is set against the track they go red regardless, because you can't trace a clear path through switch points set against you anyway, so the status of the next block is meaningless. All blocks are clear in the below diagrams, no trains on the tracks anywhere.The top schematic shows switch A straight, switch B curved, an unbroken path through the upper track, so the doublehead for A is green over green. If there was a train waiting on the lower track it would still show the same indication, because the lower track is a seperate block that is not in the path. Both tr signals on the lower track are red, because both switches are set against that track. Doublehead signal at B is green over red, switch set for curve, track clear.In the middle schematic I set switch B for the straight, which changes everything. Bottom target at A is still green because the switch is still straight, the top one goes yellow because the next signal in the path through the upper track at tr2 has gone red, due to switch B having been set against it. Signal tr2 lower track is green because it's path is now clear. The bottom signal at B goes from red to green to indicate the changed switch position, the top signal is now yellow because it is no longer tracing a path to the green signal for the upper track at tr1, the path now goes to the lower track tr1 signal, which is still red. Neither tr1 signal changes because switch A is unchanged.On the bottom, I set switch A for the curve, which essentially makes all the signals the opposite of the top diagram, because there is now a different path through the lower track instead of the upper. Again, the opposite of the first one, if there was a train on the upper track the signals would be the same, it's a different block and the path don't go through it. A train on the lower track with that setup would change both A and B top lights to red, a train to the right of doublehead B would not affect B, but tr2 lower would go red, and A would be yellow over red.Boweavel once posted a picture of those bozos from KUJU responsible for this mess, and it was just as I expected, not a single one wearing an NMRA engineer's cap or a Union Pacific T-shirt. That's why the "logic" for the interval signals is all wrong too, the prototype has fail safe built into the signals but they don't work anything like that. Interval should be simple, Next block ahead occupied, signal red. Next block clear, one after that occupied, signal yellow. Next two blocks clear, signal green. And if there is supposed to be an "end of line" signal to get around their screwy logic that the signal is red unless there is another signal beyond it showing green, they should have given better instructions on how to find that type. Hopefully there is somebody out there that understands both computers and railroad signals that can write a signal script that actually works the way they're supposed to. I'm gonna keep working on it, but I really hope somebody beats me to the punch. Hopefully also someone will come up with a dispatcher hack for this, "permission denied" is a bunch of BS when there is no traffic conflict, and it would be nice to be able to set a series of switches ahead, signal controlled or not, without having to quit the game and open the activity editor.Brooksy, I didn't forget you in all this, download Port Ogden and Northern version 4, open it up in the route editor. I steal some of my best ideas from other route developers this way, just select and right click on the object you want to know about, and up pops the box telling you what it is.The "little used siding" effect was to designate where the automatic switches are, these are places you can't get on to in an activity, because they're for the AI traffic paths if I ever get the signals working right. Place a bush on the track, lower it into the ground until just the top shows. Repeat until crazy. Scenery is what I do when the other stuff starts getting to me, keeps me sort of sane. Shut up, Rich, I said sort of. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
brooksy (21 posts)
Nov-19-01, 03:37 AM (EST) 10. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-01 AT 03:39 AM (EST)Thanks for your help Jim,
As always it all becomes clear through your answers. I will add this info to my collection of sniper297 gems which reside in a spiral bound folder and is my main reference tool in my bludgening attempts at route building.
I hope you don't see my fawning as to much of a sop to you but I have all your tutorials and I just hope you continue to persevere with MSTS and don't switch to the upcoming opposition, at least not completely.
I have PO&N4 but not yet installed. This weekend is planned for a train trip around the route.
Cheers from down under. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dvdhoven (173 posts)
Nov-19-01, 02:20 PM (EST) 11. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" Hi Jim,Tough I have both qualifications, yes I understand computers, I am a software developer and yes I understand signals, once I was dispatcher, traffic controller and yard master at the Dutch Railroad, I still have no clue. Well there is some difficulty for me, the American signal system is basically different from the Dutch signal system. That's strange because the Dutch system is developed from the American system.Well I have looked and looked in the signal script, but still no clue. Sad.
But have you mailed those guys that do the Marias 3.0. They claimed to have solved the signal problems on the Marias.Well in the next future I will take an other look at the signal script. The silly signalling in MSTS is going through my head again and again for months. Dick van den Hoven Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
davidbeach (72 posts)
Nov-19-01, 04:03 PM (EST) 12. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" >The top light should show block
>occupation, the bottom should show
>which way the switch is
>thrown. The bottom is only
>a switch indicator on the
>doublehead, when it's red it
>only indicates that the switch
>is thrown for the curve,
>and is non-restricting.
>A truth table would look something
>like:
>Green over green: Switch set for
>straight, 2 blocks ahead unoccupied
>
>Yellow over green: Switch set for
>straight, 1 block ahead unoccupied
>
>Red over green: Switch set for
>straight, block ahead occupied
>
>Green over red: Switch set for
>curve, 2 blocks ahead unoccupied
>
>Yellow over red: Switch set for
>curve, 1 block ahead unoccupied
>
>Red over red: Switch set for
>curve, block ahead occupied
>Typically the top signal is through the normal route of the turnout, the lower signal is through the reverse route. So a two head interlocking signal would NEVER show green over green. Green over red is clear through the normal direction, red over green is clear through the reverse (diverging) direction.
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sniper297 (876 posts)
Nov-19-01, 04:39 PM (EST) 13. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" OK, that would work too. Only how do I get them to work that way is the problem. Currently they show red over red, which shouldn't be unless the track that the switch is set for is occupied, which in the above examples it's not. And don't the single head signals facing the opposite direction (tr1 and tr2) work the way I described? If the switch is set for track 1, track 2 should be red regardless, unless prototype switches really are spring loaded and you can go ahead and drive thru the points when they're set against you. The whole point of interlocking is to prevent two trains from driving onto the same track tho, so if the switch is set for the straight track then both tracks shouldn't be green at the same time, and unless the single track is occupied or the switch is set in the middle they shouldn't both be red either, but that's the kind of thing I'm getting. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rdamurphy (131 posts)
Nov-19-01, 08:01 PM (EST) 14. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" I know this is going to sound bizzare, but did you terminate your track? A track bumper is required (I think) at the end of all tracks to make it a closed system. Otherwise, how does TS know how to set the last signal before the track terminates? I don't know, all I know is I placed a bumper at the end of my track, the stupid signals worked. I decided it was stupid to have a bumper at the end of a "continuing" main line. The signals quit working. I replaced the bumper, SOME of them starting working again, a lot didn't and ended up having to be deleted and reset. But then they worked. Was there a connection (forgive the pun). I don't know.Rob Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rdamurphy (131 posts)
Nov-19-01, 08:03 PM (EST) 15. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" Oh, yeah, by the way, the bumpers also made a difference in the route editor, it seemed to 'co-operate' better...Rob Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
zander (24 posts)
Nov-20-01, 03:02 AM (EST) 16. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" Wow -Thats it -Never thinking on such a simple solution - I builded snipers exemple in my small test -Route - Bumpers on all ends and all pathes are possible - the signals are working correct !! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rdamurphy (131 posts)
Nov-20-01, 09:04 AM (EST) 17. "RE: Anybody know how to do an exorcism on signals?" Accolades on my genius will be accepted RobPS: Anybody know if 'accolades' is spelled right? What does it mean anyway... Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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