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"New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)="

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tomkrist (42 posts)
Nov-09-01, 11:55 AM (EST) "New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Working on a new route, and so far so good The route is a fantasy route, it will be LONG, VERY long I will release some screenshots soon, but if you like long routes, this is the one,hehe.Also, since i am living in the northern part of the Norway, the terrain will be inspirated from here with a lot of tunnels and mountains.However, if i am going to have this route ready to be released at Christmas time, i need some help!
1) How do i make the route avaibel on the easiest way? What file do i need to release and what *.bat file should i use? I have around 1224 tiles, how BIG will this be when i release it(i dont take in condideration of the stuff you need to copy).2) How do i make realistic water terrain, like rivers? Any suggestions?3) I need others signals, i only have ONE from the Japan route. How do i add signals, from lets say Marias, and how do i put
theme into the *.ref file to get theme avaible?
Another question, since i use about 4-5 hours each day on this route, i am considering release it to sell, not much, lets say
around 10 dollar for the hole package(if i am not going to
release it trough a company). What is the intereset of this? Will you pay that to get this route? I am wasting my time,or? T.K
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Subject Author Message Date ID RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... rgarber Nov-09-01 1 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... rgarber Nov-09-01 2 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... milgarfield2001 Nov-09-01 3 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... rgarber Nov-09-01 4 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... milgarfield2001 Nov-09-01 5 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... TrainTrak5000 Nov-09-01 6 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... sniper297 Nov-09-01 7 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... rgarber Nov-09-01 8 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... sniper297 Nov-09-01 9 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... rgarber Nov-09-01 10 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... sniper297 Nov-10-01 11 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... rgarber Nov-10-01 12 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... LawrenceKellie Nov-10-01 13 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... milgarfield2001 Nov-10-01 14 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... LawrenceKellie Nov-10-01 15 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... CPR_Malice_96th Nov-11-01 16 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... chucksc Nov-11-01 21 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... milgarfield2001 Nov-11-01 17 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... milgarfield2001 Nov-11-01 18 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... milgarfield2001 Nov-11-01 19 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... rgarber Nov-11-01 20 RE: New route,ready maybe in Christ... tomkrist Nov-12-01 22

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rgarber (466 posts)
Nov-09-01, 12:16 PM (EST) 1. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Let's see... a bunch of questions here... 1) Depends how you combined the shapes. If you used the tried and true comboref route then your job is easy. Don't include the shapes, terrtex or textures folders. Use Jim's easystuff3 file to copy the objects from the six default routes to yours. If you use the hallowed Jim Stevens all_object script to combine your objects then you'll have to ask those receiving your route to run the script.In your tiles folder you don't need to include, the ... the... gosh I always forget which ones.. the e and the n raw files? Yep, that's it.. don't include the e and the n raw files.There's some other stuff you can leave out too which doesn't add up to much.3) To get the bnsf signals into your route, copy the
sigcfg.dat
sigscr.datfiles from the Marias Pass folder.2) Realistic terrain and water is Jim's department. That's Sniper. Do a search on Sniper and terrain. He's got one excellent post on how he does his a ways back worth retrieving. Hope this helpsRich Garber
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rgarber (466 posts)
Nov-09-01, 12:17 PM (EST) 2. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" he paints engines tooand f16's....
and b-52's....
and who knows what else Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
milgarfield2001 (18 posts)
Nov-09-01, 07:22 PM (EST) 3. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" I'm not sure if I'd pay $10 for a route. It depends how long is long (300 miles and above <500 km> seems reasonable). And, if your route is extremely detailed, it might be worth $10. But, your route isn't real, so it might be worth less. You'd be ripping us off because the cost per route in Train Sim itself was less than $10 and it came with other things. So, unless you really think your route is the best thing since sliced bread, you really should not sell it. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (466 posts)
Nov-09-01, 07:39 PM (EST) 4. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Poppycock! Forgive me but that's just the stupidest reasoning I ever heard. So let's see, if I use your reasoning, we have six routes, an activity editor, a route editor, route extractor... divide all that by $50 and you probably would argue to Abacus they shouldn't charge over $10 for anything they develope. Well, buddy, you ain't gonna see anything too soon then cause no one is gonna make it for you. And btw, could you point to me where in train-sim.com is your route? I just wanna see your less than $10 contribution that you so boldly diminish our efforts.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
milgarfield2001 (18 posts)
Nov-09-01, 07:47 PM (EST) 5. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-01 AT 07:47 PM (EST)I didn't mean it that way. I was just saying that $10 is a lot to charge, even if your route is really good. Plus, Microsoft charged $50 for all those trains, six routes, many activies, and a route editor. You're charging $10 for one route. I know you want to make money off of your long, hard work, but I just think $10 is too much. You don't have to listen to me. Finally, if you didn't want an honest answer, you shouldn't have asked. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TrainTrak5000 (105 posts)
Nov-09-01, 08:40 PM (EST) 6. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Absolutely. $10 is maybe a tad much for a single route. $5 is more reasonable, plus more people would buy it because it's at a cheaper price. Take dekosoft, for example. They charged $2.00 for a new cabview, and it was pretty good...oh, yeah, and also three repaints...but mainly the cabview. Now, if you included some activities, and maybe some Christmasy trainsets, that might be worth $10. But we really shouldn't be making judgements until we see some screenshots. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (825 posts)
Nov-09-01, 09:00 PM (EST) 7. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" I disagree with all the disagreement around here. Feel free to disagree with me if you agree with disagreement tho, first amendment and all that. Anyway, here's my sillyassed opinion, slap it down with no ceremony. The USA motto should be "Caveat Emptor" (let the buyer beware) instead of E. Pluribus Unum, cuz what we got here is 100 years of electing politicians with law degrees. The government of the Lawyers, by the Lawyers, and for the Lawyers is the end result of that. So companies like Sierra can get away with charging 50 bucks for garbage like Silent Thunder and Red Baron 2, and there's nothing illegal about that. What is illegal tho, is using other people's work for profit without permission, take a look at the Tahachape loop threads to see what kind of convoluted problems you'll run into with Micro$oft's EULA. Also, only 1224 tiles? Are you sure you don't want to start bigger for your very first attempt at creating a route? Like start at the North Cape and go all the way to South Africa? That would keep you busy until Christmas. Seriously, start small and simple, make a few little freebie routes to see how popular your artistry is before you even think about contacting Microsoft/KUJU and anyone else whose permission you would need to sell their work, just to save heartaches. Rich and I might actually get a few people willing to give a few bucks if we decided to make future payware routes, but that's because people have already seen our work. Who the hell are you? No offense intended, if John Fowlis was selling a new engine instead of giving it away, or Enocell started selling add on buildings, I would be inclined to spend money because I know how good their stuff is. There would be a few chumps willing to send 10 bucks to some kid in Norway that nobody ever heard of if you advertise it just right, but I wouldn't count on getting fabulously wealthy.
Disclaimer.
The opinion expressed in this post is only the opinion of Jim Ward, and does not reflect the management of the PO&N in any way.
Claimer.
Wait a minute, I"M the management, what the hell are you talking about? Disregard some of the above. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (466 posts)
Nov-09-01, 11:01 PM (EST) 8. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Sorry sorry sorry.. but... you're all wrong! This is the thing. You'all are saying that X amount of dollars is too much versus the cost of MSTS. Well, that's ludicrous because MS sold over 8 million copies of MSTS. If the guy could sell that many routes, he could name any lowball price and still make a bunch of money. But when your sales is limited to say less than a hundred, you'll never recoup the cost of your effort. So, it's up to whomever to decide how much they want to charge, not you. Just cause you don't want to buy it at any price doesn't mean somebody else won't. The EULA, for guys like us pretty much knocks us out of the park being able to sell anything anyway. But the fella has as much right to sell what he's selling whether seen or unseen. It's his choice! He'd said he'd post some screen shots anyhow. Just cause he wants to make money off his efforts doesn't make him a bad person. And as far as 3dtrains selling for what they do, that's their choice too. But don't EVER try and tell me that putting together an engine whether it's built from scratch or skinned, is anything close to doing a route. First, they don't have the EULA problem. Second, talk to any one of them and ask them which one wants to do their own route. They'll tell you no way because they'd be forced to do what we HAVE to do, and work with MSTS. They get to do most of their work OUTSIDE of MSTS in fancy, tested, history proven, graphic programs designed to do just what it does. They don't have buggy editors to contend with like we do THE WHOLE TIME WE DO THE ROUTE. So I'm not gonna give you 1 sec with that comparison. Doing a route is for the padded cell crowd. You either love it or die. And I'm gonna say again, if it's so easy, show me your route.I'll say this one more time. Don't argue with me, to prove me wrong. Prove me wrong by showing me your route. Route defined as in placed track, with scenery (buildings, roads, bridges), with signals, with hills & rivers, with installer and activities. And then tell me it's not worth a buck and then you have proven me wrong.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (825 posts)
Nov-09-01, 11:27 PM (EST) 9. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Wow, hot topic, hey? Rich, I ain't making judgements on what anything is "worth", the American way is "All the Traffic Will Bear". Capitalism, Free Enterprise, all that stuff. To get around the EULA I'll just send Enocell 20 bucks for the use of his structures without telling him how much I plan to charge for the route, then ask for 10 million bucks retail for the route. That's the American way to do business, do unto others and then split. The value of something is always a matter of opinion, the Tehachape route isn't "worth" 25 cents TO ME, because I'm not interested in it. I don't know how many people paid the asking price, but I'm sure some guys thought it was worth 3 times as much, others felt like they were ripped off. Like you said, tho, I'm just advising the original poster against trying to "go commercial" without testing the waters first. And here's the punch line;Q. You're gonna charge 10 million bucks per copy for the PO&N? You're not gonna get many buyers at that price!A. I only NEED one! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (466 posts)
Nov-09-01, 11:38 PM (EST) 10. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Huh? Oh Jim, well I wasn't refering to you. I see phrases like: "...how long is long (300 miles and above <500 km> seems reasonable).""But, your route isn't real, so it might be worth less" "You'd be ripping us off..."...and I can't help but go ballistic. Apparently this guy thinks the Metro and PO&N and Hoboken and all the other routes are valueless because..a) our routes aren't over 300 miles
b) are routes aren't real
c) like charging him $10 is really 'ripping him off.' Guess he hasn't been to McDonald's lately.Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sniper297 (825 posts)
Nov-10-01, 00:27 AM (EST) 11. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-01 AT 00:29 AM (EST)Only opinions, Rich, he's entitled to his. Tehachape isn't valueless just because I personally don't value it, some people value it extremely. A perfect example of that is a collector's item I've been trying to sell for years, an original American Flyer 594 Animated Track Gang set. Greenburg's lists the market value at $2500. Would you pay me $2500 for it? Not unless you really wanted it. So you can see, the concepts of value and worth are slippery because it's always "to who?". If you had that particular 594 (even tho it was in storage from 1963 to 1997 and is in mint condition), one of only 200 originals ever made, I wouldn't give you 20 bucks for it unless I thought I could sell it to someone else for more. So what is it's true value? To a collector who wants one, it's worth one price, to a speculator looking to act as a middleman, another (much lower!) price, to me, unless I can get somebody to offer me enough cash for it, it's a tinplate knick-knack. Take a chill pill, buddy, most of us know how hard you worked on the East Metro, and anyone who has even taken a stab at playing with the route editor knows that the EMR is beyond price. The hacked Marias Pass with the wimped out grades is completely worthless to me, I'm not even downloading it as a freebie. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the value of the work the guy put into it, and a lot of people are enjoying his work. Different strokes for different folks. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (466 posts)
Nov-10-01, 00:55 AM (EST) 12. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" I'm gonna have to forgo the chill pill on this one Jim. It's not just about my route. Or yours for that matter. It's about somebody asking a fair question and then being practically labeled a rip-off artist. The tenor of that post was someone who made up his mind our work is of no value to him because what we do doesn't fit into his idea of value. Sure he can espouse his opinion, just like I'm espousing mine. And if he doesn't like that, then in his own words, "... if you didn't want an honest answer, you shouldn't have asked." I didn't ask, and got his. He didn't ask and he's got mine.'And I still don't see no route.'Rich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (598 posts)
Nov-10-01, 01:21 AM (EST) 13. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" For someone, milgarfield2001, who has only posted 14 posts, you certainly do have a way of getting people's dander up!I do agree with Rich on this one. Where is your route? Let's see what you consider as value. Certainly for one who can pontificate like a Pontif, you should certainly have something to show for your opinions.Tomkrist, let's see what you have. I have never seen Norway.Lawrenceps: Rich, you really do need to not keep all those emotions bottled up. Let them go. It's not good, man, to get that head of steam and then not be able to move down the track. Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
milgarfield2001 (18 posts)
Nov-10-01, 08:55 PM (EST) 14. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" I am not judging your routes. Rgarber is twisting the truth. There is no "terror" in my post. It's my opinion. If you don't agree with it, fine. I'm not trying to make him change his mind about charging $10 for his route, but he asked what people thought. That's what I think. I'm not saying it's impossible for a route to be worth 10 dollars - I'd have to see some screenshots or some figures - but based on the information he gave I would not pay 10 dollars for the route. You might choose differently and I understand that. Another way rgarber is twisting the truth is by saying that I think your routes are of no value to me. That is not true. I know people like you spend hours and hours on making a route. But, it, to me, is not worth $10. That’s all I’m saying. Furthermore, routes can be real. If he chose to base his route on a real Norwegian route, then it would be real. Routes can be 300 miles. It would take a long time, but this person looks like he is taking a long time. And, there was no place in my post where I said nobody should charge 50 dollars or 10 dollars for something. So, you McDonald’s comment is very irrelevant. These forums are a place to show your opinion. That’s what I did. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
LawrenceKellie (598 posts)
Nov-10-01, 11:08 PM (EST) 15. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Whoa! Just a dog-dang minute here.Mr./Ms. milgarfield2001 (whose name in the profile is John Doe--how original), aren't you the one who said, "You'd be ripping us off because..." And now you have the cojones to say, "I am not judging your routes," and "Rgarber is twisting the truth."I think you have better stop not-inhaling that wacky tobacky.You said, "You'd be ripping us off because..." If that isn't a judgment, I don't know what is.Further, the word "terror" was first used by YOU, in the post to which I am responding, and I quote, "There is no "terror" in my post." The word "terror" was not used by anyone previous. So where did you get this "terror" garbage?So, who's "twisting the truth"?So, let's dissect what you said:"I'm not sure if I'd pay $10 for a route." I have to agree that that is in direct response to what was asked."It depends how long is long (300 miles and above <500 km> seems reasonable). And, if your route is extremely detailed, it might be worth $10." Ok, again, you were responding to the questions."But, your route isn't real, so it might be worth less." And again."You'd be ripping us off because ..." Whoa Nellie. THAT is a value judgment."...the cost per route in Train Sim itself was less than $10 and it came with other things." That also is a value judgment. As Rich pointed out, just because MSTS was sold for $50 doesn't have anything to do with the value of any add on. As he stated, Microsoft has sold over 8 million copies, which is what they anticipated. Let's say that they sold it to the retailer for even half the retail price. That would mean that they grossed $200,000,000. Now, let me tell you, if you have a market of 8 million buyers, they could have sold it for probably $1, and still made money on the deal. So don't go comparing any add on to what MS charged. Having modeled a route with ~1,600 tiles, and laid over 400 miles of track, I can tell you that $10 is an insult. In fact, I would not be surprised that if I offered my route as it stands, with just track laid, plus 2,500 square miles of DEM modeled terrain, people would buy it."So, unless you really think your route is the best thing since sliced bread, you really should not sell it." And where as technically this is an answer to the question, your choice of comparison is trite, off the point, condescending, AND a value judgment.So, don't go getting high faluting on us. Take responsibility for what you wrote. You *did* make a value judgment. Rich was not twisting your words. I quoted your words. So stop lying about it. (You sound like a recent president here in the good ol' USofA. "I didn't have sex with that woman.")Again, I will ask. Where is your route? Let's see what you have done. After all, you are the expert on what has value and what doesn't.Lawrence Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
CPR_Malice_96th (285 posts)
Nov-11-01, 00:26 AM (EST) 16. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Jeez,Wish I had created a route so I could jump in on this discussion....Very Interesting.Oh wellGood Luck allTim Kent
CPR_Malice
Winnipeg, Canada Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
chucksc (566 posts)
Nov-11-01, 10:10 AM (EST) 21. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Hey Tim I guess this guy didn't read the "No More Whining" thread!------Chuck Schneider---------

-----"Power for You"------- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
milgarfield2001 (18 posts)
Nov-11-01, 08:48 AM (EST) 17. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Sorry about the "terror" mistake. He wrote tenor instead of terror. I guess I just misread it. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
milgarfield2001 (18 posts)
Nov-11-01, 09:10 AM (EST) 18. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-01 AT 09:13 AM (EST)It is an opinion!!!!!!! That's what I thought. I'm speaking for myself and nobody else. (Look at the real post if you have to. I’ve only changed one thing: an "us" to a "me".) And, rgarber is twisting the truth because he is going on to things that have nothing to do with this. As a matter of fact, he saying I don't value his routes. That's not true because the post wasn't even addressed to him. Then, he decides that my opinion is nonsense and then starts saying that I’m saying that his routes are worthless. I don’t even know what routes he owns (that is not an insult; I just haven't been looking for them). So, it’s not correct for him to start saying that I’m insulting them. Everything in that post was what I thought. I never said anybody else said that and I never said I don’t value his routes. Of course, I would still have to see some screenshots to know for sure, but based on the info he gave, I don’t think it’s worth $10. That may be different for other people. That's just what I think. In case you forgot what the original post was, here it is:"I'm not sure if I'd pay $10 for a route. It depends how long is long (300 miles and above <500 km> seems reasonable). And, if your route is extremely detailed, it might be worth $10. But, your route isn't real, so it might be worth less. You'd be ripping me off because the cost per route in Train Sim itself was less than $10 and it came with other things. So, unless you really think your route is the best thing since sliced bread, you really should not sell it."Everything in there is opinion and none of it was directed towards rgarber; it was directed towards tomkrist. By the way, is he seeing this?
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milgarfield2001 (18 posts)
Nov-11-01, 09:25 AM (EST) 19. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" I don't need to show any of you a route. If Microsoft charged $10,000 for this game, would you pay for it? I bet many of you would say no. But where's your $10,000 game? You don't need to personally have a route worth $10 to know the value of one. I've seen several good routes in the file library for free. Unless someone's route is at least 10 times as good, I don't see it being worth $10 to me. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rgarber (466 posts)
Nov-11-01, 09:55 AM (EST) 20. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Mr. Mil,Mil: "By the way, is he seeing this?"Yes, I'm seeing this but frankly I don't think you're worth the trouble to reply. But since you care so much what I think, I think you're cheap. I'll back that up shortly.Mil: "It is an opinion!!!!!!! That's what I thought."Yep, so was mine. So what's your point? You keep trying to defend yours even though it's rather quite mean. Was your post directed at me? Nope, never said it was. But it was broad in opinion enough to not only show your ignorance of route development, it also was nasty enough it could have discourage the original poster. You will also note that I answered the poster before you did. And you may also note that the response was helpful and not destructive like yours is.Mil: "I don't need to show any of you a route."That's right, you don't. But it's because you can't, not because you won't. I did a history check of your posts and you had little to no success in doing your own route. Yeah, you tried. And there's no problem with that. The editors are hard to work with. But you have the gall to use the adjectives you do 'ripping us off''it might be worth $10' etc. etc at folks who have. You took it upon yourself to voice your opinion in the plural. You didn't talk for yourself, you spoke as if speaking for the community.Mil: "I don’t even know what routes he owns (that is not an insult; I just haven't been looking for them)."Wrong. Check your own posts buddy. Half of your posts is this continually asking of where the routes are. In fact you've been looking as far back as August. Do a search on your own name and have a look.Mil: "I've seen several good routes in the file library for free."Now all of a sudden you know there are routes. But this is what is your real motive behind your post. You just want all you can get for free. People provide what they do out of their own generosity, not just so you can get something for free. If you value your $10 so much so, that anything worth doing can only be measured in how tightly you hold onto your dollars, I have little pity for you bud. The success of any great sim depends on 3rd party development, freeware and payware. If the poster decides he wants to be compensated, that's his choice, not yours. And he certainly doesn't need your 'rip us off' attitude since he's doing something you obviously couldn't.Now... one last thing... I didn't figure to answer your post because stupid posts like yours are better buried in the numbers of post, easily and long forgotten. People have much better things to do then to listen to you whine.You wanna keep fighting? Here's my email. I prefer to keep this nonsense off the board.rgarber@vnet.netRich Garber Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
tomkrist (42 posts)
Nov-12-01, 04:54 AM (EST) 22. "RE: New route,ready maybe in Christmas, but i need some help:)=" Wow.........i think i have been missing something this weekend,hehehe.Alot of responses. Let me just write that i am NOT a kid(i wish i was,hehe). I am 32 years old!!! Back to my question about paying. I am in full work, but beside that i am involved in different project with my computer. The last thing i was working on was with the Lagos Activity add on. Also working with the Roundhouse from Acabus. I have released several activitys here on trainsim.com and got good feedback from them(all of theme free). I was just curious about the interest if people want to pay for a route, or not, and i have to admit that i really should'nt have posted it here, because this place is only for route-designers, but ok, its done and the discussion about the 10 dollars is going on. I was just asking a question , and that is My opinion is : Yes, i would gladly pay 10 dollar for a good route that i know some people have used days or weeks, and moonths to finish.
Tom Kristoffersen.
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