USA Photo Maps

I'm wandering through the book "Step by Step Route Building" by Mike Vone. As always, I'm getting ahead of myself...Jumping to the use of DEM to create terrain. I tried this before, though it's way easier if you have instructions...I've forgotten what little I learned way back when, and it's probably changed anyway.Couple of questions...A) I'm using USA PhotoMaps to create markers. There is a function for downloading elevation data. Can this information be used in MSTS?B) The terrain I have generated with DEMEX has gaps in it. Should I create a merged DEM with Micro DEM first? Will this eliminate the "holes"?C) I tried to find the Rich Garber file routhlp2.zip that Mike recommends, but it doesn't seem to be in our library anymore. Any ideas?D) Is there a cure for MSTS, before I go too far and really get in trouble Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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RE: USA Photo Maps..., pvoxland, Dec-30-04, 12:40 PM, (1) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Dec-30-04, 02:59 PM, (2) RE: USA Photo Maps..., charlie, Dec-30-04, 03:05 PM, (3) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Dec-30-04, 06:07 PM, (5) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Dec-30-04, 06:19 PM, (8) RE: USA Photo Maps..., charlie, Dec-30-04, 08:30 PM, (11) RE: USA Photo Maps..., muskokaandtahoe, Dec-30-04, 03:25 PM, (4) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Dec-30-04, 06:11 PM, (6) RE: USA Photo Maps..., JohnCS, Dec-30-04, 06:12 PM, (7) RE: USA Photo Maps..., CGW409, Dec-30-04, 06:21 PM, (9) RE: USA Photo Maps..., JohnCS, Dec-30-04, 08:25 PM, (10) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Dec-30-04, 08:59 PM, (12) RE: USA Photo Maps..., charlie, Dec-31-04, 10:07 AM, (13) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Dec-31-04, 08:25 PM, (15) RE: USA Photo Maps..., charlie, Jan-01-05, 10:48 AM, (16) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Jan-01-05, 05:01 PM, (18) RE: USA Photo Maps..., charlie, Jan-01-05, 08:48 PM, (19) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Jan-01-05, 10:44 PM, (20) RE: USA Photo Maps..., CGW409, Dec-31-04, 11:44 AM, (14) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Jan-02-05, 00:52 AM, (22) RE: USA Photo Maps..., fixin2, Jan-01-05, 03:47 PM, (17) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Jan-02-05, 00:44 AM, (21) RE: USA Photo Maps..., charlie, Jan-02-05, 11:50 AM, (23) RE: USA Photo Maps..., JohnCS, Jan-02-05, 04:51 PM, (24) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Jan-03-05, 11:47 PM, (36) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Jan-02-05, 05:22 PM, (25) RE: USA Photo Maps..., CGW409, Jan-02-05, 06:16 PM, (26) RE: USA Photo Maps..., Idahojeff, Jan-02-05, 08:23 PM, (27) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Jan-02-05, 08:28 PM, (28) RE: USA Photo Maps..., CARex, Jan-02-05, 11:10 PM, (29) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Jan-02-05, 11:43 PM, (30) RE: USA Photo Maps..., CARex, Jan-03-05, 00:15 AM, (31) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Jan-03-05, 10:09 AM, (32) RE: USA Photo Maps..., CARex, Jan-03-05, 04:22 PM, (33) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Jan-03-05, 10:17 PM, (34) RE: USA Photo Maps..., Archer01, Jan-03-05, 11:39 PM, (35) RE: USA Photo Maps..., Archer01, Jan-04-05, 10:26 AM, (37) RE: USA Photo Maps..., KeltikSylk, Jan-04-05, 11:27 AM, (38) RE: USA Photo Maps..., jcolbert666, Jan-17-05, 00:33 AM, (39) RE: USA Photo Maps..., CARex, Jan-17-05, 01:31 PM, (40) RE: USA Photo Maps..., JohnCS, Jan-18-05, 07:20 PM, (41)

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When I began my bottomless pit of a route , some gaps between geographic areas were a big pain. However, when the USGS "Seamless" data became available, these edge-matching oddities have largely vanished. So, make sure you are using that data source, rather than individual topographic map quadrangles. I am surprised how often I regenerate the elevations, sometimes it's to restore terrain that errors of track laying have mangled, other times it has been to make use of the seamless data to fix up elevation errors from those older data sets.URL: http://seamless.usgs.gov/ As for point D), there is no cure. Once you getting into creating a universe, there is also apparently no cure either.

--- Phil Voxland

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Holy Smokes!I'm using DEM data I downloaded a couple of years back...Didn't know about this seamless stuff...WHOA! I can download the entire state of Pennsylvania!!!Thank you, thank you, thank you....Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

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>B) The terrain I have generated with DEMEX has gaps in it.
>Should I create a merged DEM with Micro DEM first? Will this
>eliminate the "holes"? Frank,I played with this back in the old days of DEMEXv0.6 when we had to use MicroDEM to do all the merges. I assume you're using STDS DEMs. I had some particularly poor ones in the southern third of my route, and the following helped a lot.On the MicroDEM toolbar, click on "Options", then in the next window select the "Import/Export" tab. Make sure that "Auto fill holes on DEM merge" is checked. In the "Max gap to fill" box, "2" is default, and I changed it to "4". You could give that a try, after all another new MicroDEM native DEM is just a few mouse clicks away. If you really are using STDS DEMs, MicroDEM has another tremendous advantage. It has the ability to "translate" old STDS DEMs into a format that DEMEX cannot otherwise read.http://www.train-sim.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=11676&forum=DCForumID6Sometimes you're in the mountains, insist on 10m DEMs for the vastly superior resolution, and it doesn't exist yet in the "seamless" data. Then SDTS DEMs with MicroDEM is the only way. It will be to the NAD27 datum, but if you need to, MicroDEM will calculate the shift to WGS84 so that you can make the terrain shift in DEMEX. So far I haven't seen a MicroDEM native DEM that DEMEX wouldn't take.>D) Is there a cure for MSTS, before I go too far and really
>get in trouble Nope, I've observed you long enough to recognize the symptoms. Besides that, what can it hurt; erase what you just did that you don't like and do it again. regards,
charlie

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"Sometimes you're in the mountains" pretty much sums it up. It's all moutains so I guess I'll stick with the DEM's I have. I couldn't make any sense out using the seamless data anyway...It's all TIF ad TXT.Reading the messages here, a lot of the stuff I thought I forgot is coming back. Of course I got lazy and started to merge EVERY DEM I have, including the ones in other UTMs and promptly crashed MicroDEM.Like you said, I can always erase the tiles I've generated and start over.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

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You mention the USGS database in the linked thread...Where do you find it? On the USGS site?Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

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Frank,Here's a link to Professor Guth's download page:http://www.usna.edu/Users/oceano/pguth/website/microdemdown.htmScroll down to the bottom of the page to select the link to "Indexes for TIGER data and USGS 1:24K quad names". You need to have left c:\mapdata in the default location.regards,
charlie

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> D) Is there a cure for MSTS, before I go too far and really get in trouble?Sure: regaining your sanity and/or death will cure it. Absent one of those two I recommend you take your time about getting your terrain set up in full, including DM tiles. Be sure to test how accurate the DEM data is relative to your markers -- one way is to find an altitude marker in the USGS map for some peak present in your route. Is your DEM peak at the same location as the corresponding USAPhotoMap marker or is it shifted in some direction? You'll find it's probably shifted. How much is too much is a judgement call but remember any discrepency between the terrain and your markers will give you a different lie to the ground than whatever the RR track gang had to deal with. On the odd chance your route includes something at sea level you'll want to lift the terrain up at least 5m so you have room to push down the seabed: you need that lift to give you the space for your water textures to display properly.Learn to do things in 3d cad as eventually you'll have a need for something, maybe lots of somethings, that are not available in the library. You'll have to do them yourself and this is not a trivial time issue either... they add up rather quickly.As for other tips, the usual advice:Take your time doing your trackwork. All too often the rush you get from doing the work clouds your judgement and you'll do something you come to regret. If that good-enough-for-now solution is on a curve you might not be able to fix it later on because of the qdirection tilt you built in the first time. At least not w/o relaying a whole lot of track.Finish and test all your track before adding other interactive objects that interact with your track (n.b. it seems to be safe to put down roads so long as none touch the track).Get and use the ObjectRotater spreadsheet. It's a huge help. Get and use x-tracks or Scale Rail... just too many good shapes to ignore. Don't try building towards a centerpoint from the two ends of your route, you've never get the joint right... the ideal is to start at the center. That way if you tire of working west you simply go back to the centerpoint and start building east. Sure wish I had done that myself....Consider a good unicode editor as you will be editing world files whenever you use the objectrotater. I use emeditor (www.emeditor.com).Good luck.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950
Protect the Public Domain from Micky Mouse laws
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I got the spreadsheet and if I ever get that far, I'll use it. I'm really trying to do as you suggest and only work on a litttle at a time. Whether modeling or route building it seems less aggravating if you take it in "digestable" chunks. I think it also helps the quality of the result too.Thanks for your encouraging help.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

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Info on using the seamless data...http://www.digital-rails.com/supportforum/viewtopic.php?t=3JohnCS

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I tried following the steps but couldn't get it to work right as apparently the USGS has altered the site ,getting Demex to use the data might also be a problem of my using the demo version( a problem I plan to rectify shortly though)so I'm currently using older DEM data.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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I see USGS has revised the interface to the site, however the process is still essentially the same. Only major drawback is they seem to have removed the railroad overlay dataset from the map display.JohnCS

http://www.digital-rails.com

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Guys,
While I was not able to work out the earlier problem, I was able to use MicroDEM and DEMEX combined to create "seamless" terrain (I hope).The result, of course, only leads to more questions...

The camera is standing above a peak called Jahus (I think) on the USGS maps, a little east of Johnstown, Pennsylvania. We're looking North at what should be the valley of the Little Conemaugh.Photomaps says the location is 40.328368 North, 78.892188 degress West. MSTS says it's 40.33056 N, 78.90015 W. I'm assuming that's as close as I'm gonna get, though I'm not sure what the difference is in meters. Is this normal?The one thing that does trouble me is that we're about 40 feet short of 2000 feet above sea level. The peak with the X on should be 1824 feet above sea level. The valley floor is supposed to be at 1230 feet. That's roughly 182 meters. MSTS says it's 109.Does this sound typical? I tried resetting the height in RGE, but I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly. Doesn't this wreak havoc with grades?Mike's book is helpful, but it doesn't seem to go into these little troublesome details.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-04 AT 10:19 AM (EST)

>Photomaps says the location is 40.328368 North, 78.892188
>degress West. MSTS says it's 40.33056 N, 78.90015 W. I'm
>assuming that's as close as I'm gonna get, though I'm not
>sure what the difference is in meters. Is this normal? Frank,You've not said anything about making any datum corrections we talked about, so I assume you haven't. Your MSTS terrain is then still in the NAD27 datum, and you should adjust it to the WGS84 datum in order to get your terrain as close as you can to the USAPhotomaps markers you're probably going to make. By the way, DEMEX makes it easy to import your USAPhotomaps markers into your route's mkr file.Here's how to calculate the desired terrain shift. Open MicroDEM and click on "Analyze" on the toolbar, then select "Convert Coordinates" followed by "UTM or datum conversion".The first thing to do in the new window is to make datum selections. On the left, select "NAS-C NORTH AMERICAN 1927, CONUS"; on the right, select "WGS84 WORLD GEODETIC SYSTEM, 1984". In the upper left corner, tick "Lat/Long", then click on the button just below that.In the little "Input coordinates" window on the "Lat/Long" tab, tick Decimal Deg, then copy and paste the 40.33056 N, 78.90015 W MSTS values of this thread into the appropriate boxes. Click on "OK", and there you have it...Looking on the left side, you will see (greyed out) UTM coordinates corresponding to the input Lat/Long above. On the right are your desired WGS84 UTM coordinates.The UTM "x" coordinate is "Easting", which means that if the coordinate is increasing you're moving East. Similarly the "y" coordinate is "Northing"; bigger means a north move. So, I make it that you need to move your DEMs 18 meters east and 214 meters north. (If you forget the Easting/Northing thing, you can remind yourself in USAPhotomaps by selecting View, Lat/Long, UTM and then watching what happens to the coordinates when you move the cursor.)Given the 8 meter limitation of the MSTS terrain grid, probably 16 meters E and 216 N is the best you can do in DEMEX Options.
>The one thing that does trouble me is that we're about 40
>feet short of 2000 feet above sea level. The peak with the X
>on should be 1824 feet above sea level. The valley floor is
>supposed to be at 1230 feet. That's roughly 182 meters. MSTS
>says it's 109. And I think your peak may be "Johns". If I got this correctly, I have it on topos at 1956 feet, while the base of the radio tower next door is at 1824 feet.regards,
charlie

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-04 AT 08:29 PM (EST)

I was able to follow all the steps and saw the "shift" in the coordinates.How did you know how to do this? Did I forget to read something? I really doubt that I will remember this for next time Do I just exit the program or do I need to save? There are several options to choose and I haven't a clue. (Feel pretty dumb about this stuff).Yes, yourn in the right spot right by the radio tower...I could swear it reads "jahus" at the higher peak, but Johns makes a lot more sense.Bythe way, I'm getting my DEMs from the PASDA site... <http://www.pasda.psu.edu/>No seamless data yet, but it is free.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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>How did you know how to do this? Did I forget to read
>something? I really doubt that I will remember this for next
>time Frank,I don't think that I was tempted into the RE until DEMEXv0.6 was released in August 2001. You didn't forget to read something, but maybe you just haven't had a chance to play with the buttons in MicroDEM for the last 3.25 years. A fascinating program, in which 95% of the functions I will never use. Sure, I had to remind myself how to do this again. If you're really interested in GIS data, you can lose many hours trying this stuff:http://www.terrainmap.com/index.html#top>Do I just exit the program or do I need to save? There are
>several options to choose and I haven't a clue. (Feel pretty
>dumb about this stuff). In this case, all we're using MicroDEM for is a calculator. Once you've jotted down your Easting and Northing offsets, you're finished, and there's nothing to save. Open DEMEX and click on "Options" to enter your offsets, and then generate your terrain.I also use DEMEX to convert USAPhotomaps "Map Files" to MSTS marker files. Since DEMEX will append a whole USAPhotomaps file to the bottom of an existing marker file, in order to prevent marker duplication and marker file bloat, I generate a separate USAPhotomaps file just to test out how well the datum shift went. I pick out the most prominant features I can find, plonk down a marker and take a look. This one, cleverly named "Point", is about 1500 meters from railroad operations and will never be seen in the sim. The small tip closest to the marker is about 16 m wide.regards,
charlie

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I was able to understand (sort of) what is happening so far. Checking through the merged DEM, however, I noticed some gaps. So I tried merging in the offending areas seperately.That didn't work.Most of the DEMs for the route work. There are 5 that won't merge because of "HORIZONTAL SPACING". Since I thought all the DEMs would be compatible, I'm not sure what this means.I took those 5 and merged them together with each other with no problem.So now I have two different merged DEMs. How do I get them to join?Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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I've not seen the "HORIZONTAL SPACING" thing or anything similar. I've had no such troubles with this site. You'll need an account, but it's free. http://data.geocomm.com/That reminded me to dust off my password, and dangit!, after all these three years they've finally put up 10m DEMs for Durango East and West. I thought that with the arrival of seamless data they would have stopped upgrading the SDTS data.And a gorgeous piece of work they are; they look great in MicroDEM. I might not have had to hand-dig the river, but I'm not going back there just now...regards,
charlie

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My fault...I didn't use the 10 meter resolution for all the DEMS when selecting them for download.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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John
Thanks for confirming that the process is still the same(bummer bout the rail line overlay though)obviously I screwed up somewhere in the process though that is quite possible when you consider I was doing the "bring up Digital's site, bring up the seamless site and bounce back and forth step by step" routine so I most likely missed a step somewhere.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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John, just discovered major issue with using seamless, I have the wrong version of DEMEX.I'll try again.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-05 AT 03:57 PM (EST)

Thanks all for this thread and your responses, enjoying this. Am in not quite the same boat as Frank, did not have any prior attempts at a route, but am trying to follow along with a first attempt. Kinda scary with all the various geophysical data and terms. Only thing I knew was the old 7.5, and 15 minute topo maps. The route I'm looking at doing has had some track pulled up and some relocated since the time period I'm attempting. Have found enough old topo quads to help with the track laying, plus a profile. Should of started long before now, but with dialup and a marginal Mobo with IDE channel problems, think it would of all been for naught. So Frank, everyone, please ask some questions, as I don't think I know enough to phrase a question, and if yall don't mind, I'll just follow the bouncing ball and try to sing along warrenEdit for typo

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Sure enough...The probelm I'm running into now is this...Most of the DEMs I have downloaded are 10 meter resolution. For the others there are only 30 meter resolution DEMs available. MicroDEM will not merge the different resolution DEMs. DEMEX will, provided I start with a 30 Meter DEM and merge the 10 meter quads.A} At this point I cannot save the merged DEM. I can create the terrain, but I need to save the merged DEM so I can use MicroDEM to offset the coordinates. Is saving a feature of the registered DEMEX (my is registereed but I think I lost the code years ago).B) When DEMEX "resamples" the 10 meter DEMs, am I losing the higher resolution?Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-05 AT 11:55 AM (EST)

>Most of the DEMs I have downloaded are 10 meter resolution.
>For the others there are only 30 meter resolution DEMs
>available. MicroDEM will not merge the different resolution
>DEMs. DEMEX will, provided I start with a 30 Meter DEM and
>merge the 10 meter quads. MicroDEM will merge different resolution DEMs, and there are two ways to do it. Sorry, I should have tumbled to your "HORIZONTAL SPACING" problem earlier.1) Open MicroDEM and click on the "In<->Out" button on the toolbar. In the new window, select Resample, DEM, then DEM general. In the "Look in:" box, browse to the location of your 30m DEM, select it and click on open. Carefully multiply the "Cols:" and "Rows:" numerical values by a factor of 3 and replace them, then change to 30's in the "X:" and "Y:" spacing boxes to 10's. Click "OK" and save to the location and filename of your choice. If you pull up your new 10m DEM beside the original SDTS 30m in MicroDEM, you won't be able to see any difference, but you can notice that the new file is about 9 times larger than the original. After you resample all your 30m's to 10's, then you can do the merge properly. This is the old way to do it, and it works.2) The newer way is somewhat more elegant. In msg #11 above, I pointed you to the USGS database; run the exe. Move all your mix of 10m and 30m SDTS DEM's into the c:\mapdata\usgsdata\DEM-24K folder. Open MicroDEM and select the "In<->Out" button on the toolbar again. This time select "Create/Index"; hold your cursor over "USGS on line database" and you will see 3 choices. Select "Add new files"; in this little window I just leave everything checked and make sure that in the "24K DEM" box "All" is ticked. Click on "OK" (or play with the Help button first if you wish).Your STDS DEMs have just been registered into your own personal version of MicroDEM. Before closing the "Data Manipulation" window, you can test this. Select "Create/Index"; hold your cursor over "USGS on line database" and select "Verify files exist". You should see a report that says at the end "Valid files remaining: xx" where xx is the number of files you put in the DEM-24K folder. Any time in future, after you put more DEMs into the DEM-24K folder for another project, do the "Add new files" sequence above again to register them.Hang on, we're getting there. Except for the "Add new files" thing, the rest of the above you don't have to do again.You now have the new button "USGS" enabled on the MicroDEM toolbar; click on it. The window that pops up is a portion of a map of the USA. The green rectangles are your DEMs. Use the magnification button and the scroll bars to get a clear view of them.Using your left mouse button, drag a red marquee from upper left to lower right around your DEMs. After you release the mouse button, take the middle choice as shown here.Click on "OK" and watch the action. In this method, MicroDEM takes all the scut-work out of it and does all the 30m resampling for you. You now have a new merged all-10m DEM on the screen. Click "File", "Save DEM", then "MD DEM". DEMEX will love this DEM.>B) When DEMEX "resamples" the 10 meter DEMs, am I losing the
>higher resolution? Yes, you are. Since with 10m DEMs I can frequently follow roadbeds, even unimproved dirt roads, I try to use them if at all possible. So sometimes the old methods are still valuable when 10m seamless data hasn't arrived yet.regards,
charlieEDIT: JPEG evaporated...

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For what its worth...For a registered DEMEX user (and Frank is) my recomendation is to avoid Microdem like the plague if at all possible. Two primary reasons: a)When Microdem saves its dem file the elevation points are truncated to integer values - loosing much of the finer resolution contained within the original DEMs, b) If Microdem is merging multiple dems consisting of different datums (which is all too often the case with USGS data) it doen't datumshift all the dems right. c)Cause you don't need to.Regarding dem data sources in the US, my selection preference from first to least is as follows:
1)Seamless 1/3" ned
2)USGS SDTS 10m dem (if not corrupted - mileage will vary)
3)Seamless 1" ned
4)USGS SDTS 30m demIf using the SDTS data you will encounter the occational seam in DEMEX. The seamfill options will take care of these when generating the terrain.The most important step is marker registration, regardless of wether you went through Microdem or not. This really isn't a datum shift issue as DEMEX converts datums when loading dems (as does Microdem also), but basic registration errors in the DEM. The easiest way to calculate the offsets is to layout some markers - either marking a distinctive terrain feature visible in your marker program, or some north-south and east-west roads which pass through cuts, or the tracks itself. Generate the terrain for your route and see how the markers line up in the RE, adjusting the DEMEX offsets and re-generating till you're satisfied. I've rarely needed offsets of more than 8meters using the seamless data - SDTS can be quite higher.If you only have 10m or 1/3" ned for a portion of your terrain then your best bet is to create your terrain in two passes rather than trying to merge 10 & 30 meter data together. Use the 30m data to create terrain for your entire route, then load the 10m data separately and generate it again in a second pass (using the 'retain existing data' option in DEMEX). Note you'll probably need different marker registration offsets for the different data sources.And as always, the best place to receive DEMEX support is in the Digital-Rails support forum at http://www.digital-rails.com/supportforumJohnCS

http://www.digital-rails.com

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John,
Just want you to know that I was able to use the seamless data with DEMEX. The major problem was system resources. The chunk of Pennsylvania I downloaded was 46MB.I rebooted my machine and ran DEMEX before any other program. This allowed me to run DEMEX and load the seamless DEM (actually a tif file) without crashing. I was able to generate the new tiles for the route and distant mountain tiles also.I had my reservations, but only because I was worried that the resolution on the 1/3 NED wouldn't be as good as the 10 meter DEMs I had used previously. This is not the case as anyone can see below...
10 meter x 10 meter resolution (Johnstown DEM)

1/3 NED Resolution (seamless)
There is one big difference not apparent. In the 10 meter the hill to the east has a "glitch" in it where there appears to be a gap in the data. This "hole" does not exist in the 1/3 NED.I want to thank everyone for your help and all the alternative approaches. I have learned quite a bit from this single posting.Now if I can just get those markers to work Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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I used the merged DEM I created to make some terrain. Even got the distan maountain tiles created.Still, I do want the 10 meter resolution, so I tried your first suggestion and resampled all the 30 meter to 10 meter. That took care of that problem. Now, however I'm crashing MicroDEM. Too many DEMS or not enough resources.I'm also going to try the USGS database as well as John's suggestion of the seamless data. There is a new glitch to using the seamless data though. My computer has been "immunized" against spy bots and now refuses to download from USGS. I love computers!Anyway, you guys have certainly given me enough to keep me busy for some time. I'll try to stay out of your hair for a while.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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Gents
Found out what I was doing wrong(missed that lil detail about converting the download into data Demex can read D'OH!!)so as soon as the household CFO clears it I'll be going after my regestered copy of Demex.
There has been some talk of how USAPhotomap markers don't translate accurately into MSTS and I think I may have stumbled across the reason, as I've been using Photomaps I've been setting some base markers along the Rock ROW and at major landmarks as I crossed the Des Plaines River in Joliet I set a marker on the RI's lift span one exactly on the east bank and the other on the west,I've also been using Photomap's topo map feature over the same terrain, I happened to switch from photo to topo at Joliet and noticed that the river markers shifted slightly in topo.
Now this is where things get a little foggy but IIRC arent the DEM's made from topo map readings? i so that subtle shift from sat/aireal photo to topo read may be the cause of our MSTS marker shifts.Gary S

43 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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The reason you notice a discrepency in photo vs. topo is a datum shift. Once you get your copy of DEMEX registered you will be able to use the shift marker utility. Under utilities you'll find "Offset Markers" a drop down menu is given for source datum, use that if you know what it is. Just keep seperate marker files for photo and topo generated markers. There is also the option for moving them by decimal degrees but, that will require some math for your specific geogrtaphical location. Jeff.

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I'll have to watch out for that...Still not at the marker stage yet (though I may have previous files from aborted attempts).Right now I'm waiting on DEMEX. I took John's advice and created all tiles in 30 meter and make a second pass with the 10 meter tiles I have. I guess I've never really used 10 meter DEMs before...It's taking forever to generate the new tiles. Never realized until now the difference the 10 meter res would make.I found out what the problem was with downloading the seamless data. Windows XP SP2. The internet settings for download prompts was disabled (or something like that).Also had to reboot. Kept crashing because my machine has been up for weeks. Not enough free resources.And I thought modeling was difficult Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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My two cents on markers. Tiger!! I love it. Lloyd Engel’s utility (in the library), although complicated until you get the drift, does a great job of securing rail, road, water and misc. markers from the Tiger 2000 data. And you don’t have to go through that “placing the markers on the photomap exercise” (unless it’s been changed in the past year or so). And the utility will offset longitude and latitude.You can download separate markers (rail alone) or markers in specific combinations ( rail and water / rail and roads / roads and water., etc., etc.) To date, in the project at hand, I’ve used ‘rail and water’ markers to confirm rail locations near the river as well as confirming the location of the river’s shore. In other areas, ‘track and road’ markers to confirm that roads are properly identified/located relative to adjacent rail. This portion of the project is rather large, so I want to be as precise as possible.As an additional aid, I also use USGS maps as transfers. And in some cases (as a mater of orientation) I use the USAphotmaps as transfers. The USGS maps provide the period rail (circa 50’s) data, while the photomaps provide current infrastructure. In this project, a lot of ‘period’ rail no longer exists.According to Lloyd, the Tiger2marker utility will place the maps for me, but I could never get this function to perform. Lloyd mentioned that (at one time) he was the only person that actually got it to work.Doing it manually is a lot of work, but for the most part I’m pleased with the accuracy. I recently told someone, it’s not an exact science, but I like this result a lot better than looking at a whole bunch of little flags in a green field.Have a sparkling day
Bob

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-05 AT 11:49 PM (EST)

OH MY GOD!I had heard awhile back that some folks had tried this, but I wasn't aware it had gotten to this level. Who needs markers!I will definitely take a look at this utility. What file is it? It doesn't show in a search for Tiger or Engel...Never mind..Found it.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-05 AT 00:19 AM (EST)

Frank,

The Tiger utility just secures the markers. Rail, roads, water and misc. It will also offset the longitude and latitude for you.It is suppose to download and place the USGS (DRG) maps, but I could never get that function to perform. Lloyd mentioned that he needed to revise the program. However, he did get it to work for him.I liked the concept of base maps so much, I developed my own ‘manual’ exercise to accomplish the same end. That result is what you see above. It’s a bit of work, but look at what it does for you. I just wrote a (casual) tutorial for a friend…, if you’d like I could email you a copy.In any event, here is the utility name…, tiger2marker v0.0.2.42. I downloaded it about a year ago, I suspect it’s still in the library. If you can’t find it, I can also email the zip to you.EDIT: Ooops, I see that you found it, good. Have fun. Have a sparkling day,
Bob

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Bob, I'd like to have a copy of that tutorial, if you don't mind. Looks like a great idea.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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In the mail Frank (your web site mail box)!!

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Haven't recieved it yet.
Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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Bob could I please get a copy of your Tutorial .Ranger524@msn.com

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I did a search in the file library and couldn't find a Tiger2Marker.zip . found 11 other Marker programs or fixes , but No Tiger2Marker . Could anyone that has this program E-Mail me it please .Ranger524@msn.com

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It's tgr2mkrb.zip in the utilities section.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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A word of warning. I had a 60-day trial of some commercial GIS package or another awhile back. While I had it I noticed that a lot of the Tiger files were often "a little off". By that I don't mean a datum shift but they had a tendency to be off by as much as several meters in one direction or another. Sometimes sidings would be missing etc. So be warned.

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There is an offset function in the utility for both longitude and latitude. I've found that -.0008 longitude and -.0005 latitude (in southern New England) gets me pretty close to the RE geography (river and ocean shore lines). And that's not absolutely dead on..., but close enough for government work.Have a sparkling day
Bob

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Regarding Tiger accuracy, it all depends on what your level of 'good-nuff' is. For lines which run along river banks I've seen the tiger data hop rapidly from bank to bank and spend a good bit of time in the center of the channel.If you're wanting to get the track in the right valley, the tiger data is great. Anything more - you get what you paid for.JohnCS

http://www.digital-rails.com

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