ESD detail level and world objects density

Got a new *&%$#! KUJU bug now, trying to determine what has the biggest impact on framerates by changing the ESD detail level in the .sd file for assorted objects. I changed Bill (longhairedwizard) Bzak's 4500 poly count refinery fractionating complex to ESD detail level 10, and that works, at full detail on the advanced display world objects density slider now you see it, slide the WOD down to 9 and it's gone. So I'm experimenting with weed clumps VS static trains, change the static trains to 10, and they're still there at WOD 9. Down to 8, and they're gone, but so are the weedclumps, which are ESD 7!WOD 9, the ESD 10 static trains which are not supposed to be visible, are still displayed?!Then at WOD 8, the ESD 10 static trains are not loaded, but the ESD 7 weeds which ARE supposed to be loaded at 7 or above are AWOL!I can change the weeds to ESD 0 for the tests, but what I want to know is, how are we supposed to determine what the player will see at various world object density levels if this thing is gonna be moody about it? Anyone else seen this before?

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RE: ESD detail level and world objects density., Hack, Jul-27-04, 09:59 PM, (1) RE: ESD detail level and world objects density., Mark_Blum, Jul-28-04, 08:38 PM, (7) RE: ESD detail level and world objects density., Hobart, Jul-27-04, 10:00 PM, (2) RE: ESD detail level and world objects density., Roman, Jul-28-04, 05:42 AM, (3) RE: ESD detail level and world objects density., sniper297, Jul-28-04, 11:33 AM, (4) RE: ESD detail level and world objects density., Roman, Jul-28-04, 03:36 PM, (5) RE: ESD detail level and world objects density., carloshr, Jul-29-04, 03:51 AM, (8) RE: ESD detail level and world objects density., Swissie, Jul-28-04, 05:57 PM, (6) RE: ESD detail level and world objects density., sniper297, Jul-29-04, 05:28 PM, (9) RE: ESD detail level and world objects density., MikeSimpson, Jul-30-04, 08:39 PM, (10) RE: ESD detail level and world objects density., sniper297, Jul-30-04, 09:45 PM, (11)

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I wonder if the watermark added in the world files makes any difference. It could be that the ESD level doesn't mean squat for existing items - only those that are placed after the SD files are edited. I believe the sim might need those water marks to know what to load and when.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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MarcYou're correct. A change in the SD file does not change objects already placed, only those placed in the future.I just didn't know it was called a "watermark"! Mark
A Southern Railway Fan

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I think when you save a route in the RE, it sorts all that stuff out when it writes the *.w files. So making changes to the .sd files might not work, if not you may want to go into the .w file and move the objects manually.

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Hi Sniper,The objects are sorted on 'watermarks', so you need a tool if you change the values for ESD after initial placing of objects. I believe TSUTIL from CarlosHR can do the job.
BTW, any chances for blueprints of the wierd dblslips of NorthWestern?Roman

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Got a link to the TSutil? I did look in the .w files, noticed static detail level zero for wierd stuff like track sections, the signals and most static objects don't have them. What's really bizarre is that the static trains were placed with an ESD of 0, the weeds were ESD 5 when they went in. Changing the ESD detail in the SD file works, click on the weed and right click, it says detail level 0 or 7 or whatever else you changed the .sd to, and when I click the button on the RE camera window to lower detail, everything does what it's supposed to do, ESD 10 disappears at 9, ESD 7 is still there at 7 and gone at 6. That button is supposed to be a preview of what you'll see in the sim, but apparently it depends on the watermark stuff in the sim. Probably also explains why forest regions are cast in concrete at ESD DL 0, you can change a forest region to whatever you want and it always shows up anyway. Don't you hate it when computer software ignores you?Anyway, Ottodad somehow got a psychic connection and read my mind, he was working on the same thing:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/24263.htmlAnd that's how I solved the immediate problem, two identical routes with no difference other than the static trains.Blueprints for doubleslips? Hee-hee, not me, I went to TLAR engineering school, T L A R = That Looks About Right. I only cosine my tangents when I absolutely have to, otherwise I guesstimate roughproximately until I trial and error to something that looks like what I want.Might find something here:http://www.cnwhs.org/

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@sniper,copied out of that thread:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID6/12245.html
"Hello,
'TSUtil' is a private tool.
You can download it from 'carloshr.privat.t-online.de'regards
carloshr"

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Hello Sniper , Roman'TSUtil' analyses object-definitions in a world-file and checks if they are arranged according to 'StaticdetailLevel'. It also checks this position in accordance with 'Tr_Watermark' -Statements.But, It CANNOT rearrange whole world-objects until now.
It can only renumber (UID) them.regards
Carl-Heinz (carloshr)

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LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-04 AT 06:00 PM (EST)

Hi Jim,strange, strange... Never seen this before (meaning that I thought all the objects on my route under construction faded out at the proper ESD). Did you check if the static consist and the weeds behave as strangely in the RE as they do in the sim? Just for the record: You are certainly aware of the fact that you can alter the ESD level in during RE-session by using the buttons in the lower (right, IIRC) corner of the camera window of the RE (box with current ESD level displayed, and two buttons to notch the level up & down)? If all works well, objects should disappear or appear when you change the ESD level. This allows you to determine which objects have what ESD level, and what the appearance of your route is with any of the settings. Be aware though that other than in the sim, the RE always loads the entire tile into memory, so I got the impression that the fps will not change as noticeably with lower ESD levels in the RE as they should&will do in the sim (due to more memory being used).Kind regardsLukas a.k.a SwissieEdit: Typos

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Well, thanks for all the input guys, turns out the static trains have a very minimal effect on framerates anyway, so that's a moot point now.Swissie, yeah, with these I clicked the detail button in the RE camera window up and down, and everything appeared and disappeared at the correct setting in the RE. Just didn't do it in the game, weeds disappeared at a higher setting than the ESD, static trains at a lower setting than the ESD.As for the theory that changing the ESD detail level don't affect previously placed objects, maybe. I haven't looked at watermarks yet, but like I said some objects have detail level lines in the datablock, most static objects do not. My experience has always been the opposite previously, alter the ESD detail level in the SD file, anything previously placed gets changed too. Most recent example, LongHairedWizard's refinery pack, I stuck some of that in the new Texas Tea for version 9, and noticed a sharp framerate drop in the area. Opening the fractioning complex in Shape File Manager I saw it was 4500 polys, and I had placed 5 of them in Texas Tea. All the refinery pack objects are ESD zero, so when I placed the "LHW_Fractionating_Complex_v1.s" they were at ESD 0. Merely opening the SD file and changing to ESD 10 works for that object:And examining the datablock in the W file for that shape shows no differences with any other static object.Just for the heck of it, those storage tanks are clones of enocell's tanks, all were placed with ESD 5. So I'll change the SD files, one to 10, one to 9, and one to 8.
That works as advertised, no need to fiddle with W files. Note the second shot weeds are there, third shot they're gone, those are also ESD 9, altho when placed they were ESD 5. I wouldn't mind the MSTS bugs so much if they were at least consistent, make it a lot easier to work around them.

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>I wouldn't mind the MSTS bugs so much if they were at least >consistent, make it a lot easier to work around them. Yes Jim, but it would take out all the fun !Mike

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HA! Well, you Aussies always did have wierd ideas of fun. Hanging upside down on the bottom of the world with the blood rushing to your head seems like a strange way to have fun, but basically that's how amusement parks make money.By the way,http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID15/3896.html#12I don't know if it's my system (Windows XP home) or whatever, but when I first tried that "Replace shapes in W" I thought it wasn't working or something. Then I figured out that the new window pops up BEHIND the main RR window, and you gotta reduce the main RR window to see the replace shapes window. Is that just me, or does it do that for everybody?

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