One Last Signals Question

I'm using Hank's searchlight signals, and am wondering if I can cut down on up to 3 and 4 signals in a row close together in a complicated interlocking. I started to work on an arrangement using fewer signals, as pictured below if it is even readable, but then got backed into a corner when I got to locations J and I and realized that I no longer had southbound signals at D and E. I'm no signals expert.If it's not too much trouble, I wonder if someone could come up with the best way to signal this area. With way too many signals, it seems to be working well in my route, but it would be nice to use as few signals as possible.(This is my version of Fox Junction in 1936, Moffat Road.)Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, dwkarch, Jun-06-04, 11:10 PM, (1) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, jdtrainman, Jun-06-04, 11:14 PM, (2) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, dwkarch, Jun-15-04, 10:26 PM, (3) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, markhyams, Jun-16-04, 00:29 AM, (4) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, dwkarch, Jun-16-04, 08:02 AM, (5) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, Railfan727, Jun-16-04, 12:44 PM, (6) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, dwkarch, Jun-16-04, 09:33 PM, (7) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, dwkarch, Jun-18-04, 07:25 AM, (12) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, Signalmaster, Jun-17-04, 09:12 AM, (8) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, jdtrainman, Jun-17-04, 09:19 AM, (9) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, Signalmaster, Jun-17-04, 11:30 AM, (11) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, Signalmaster, Jun-18-04, 10:08 AM, (13) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, jdtrainman, Jun-18-04, 10:43 AM, (14) RE: ONE LAST SIGNALS QUESTION, dwkarch, Jun-17-04, 09:43 AM, (10)

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Like the RE, I think my brain got overloaded and crashed. I rebooted it.Correct or not, I think I have signals now that seem to work well. What I showed in the picture for F and G southbound now applies to D and E southbound. F and G southbound are now 2 head, fixed red 1.J and I southbound are unchanged as 2 head linked to K/D and L/E.Tried it on my activity and worked well. Stopped my player NB across L and I and waited for 2 AI trains to show up. The one NB from A to J stopped for me at D, and continued and passed me when I moved past I. The one SB from F to A stopped for both of us at F and then continued when clear.Too bad you can't hear me laughing. I don't blame you for not responding or even reading most of this.Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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I wouldn't put signals at D and E. Treat the entire interlocking as a route-based system. Home signals at the north and south ends of both sets of tracks....Hank's USSL signals (2-head variety) will allow you to set up several routes (medium, limited, restricting speeds)...JBD

Jim Duncan
Midwest Rail Group

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Thanks for your input.Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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I'll agree with Jim. Treat it as one interlocking, with 5 NB signals and 5 SB signals. I think it would be easier to comprehend if I talked about linking signals to tracks, rather than signals to other signals. The only problem I see is the signal at A. From here, you can get to all five tracks, but you can't link the signal to all five. You can link to 1, 2 and 4 no problem. If the switch at A is in the straight position, there are two possible routes from the switch at D, track 3 and 5, but you can't link to track 3 and 5 because of the trailing point switch just beyond the switch at A. Thus, you can't know if the route is straight through on track 3, which would give some sort of non-diverging indication, or if it is diverging to track 5, which would give a diverging indication. This presents a problem, because it is essential for signals to show if the route is diverging or not.There are a couple of solutions. One, leave the signal there at D. The signal at A will have a very short block only up to D, but at least the signal at D will show divergence or not. The problem is, is that A is so close to D. If D shows STOP, then A will show approach, and the signal before A will show some sort of medium approach (flashing yellow, maybe), so the engineer will pass the medium approach signal thinking that he can pass the next yellow signal slowing down ready to stop at the second signal, but then bam, the red signal is immediately after the yellow, not giving him enough time to stop.Two, create a signal that just shows switch position and is another type (INFO, or DISTANCE, e.g.) and modify the script for the signal at A to look at the signal at D to see if the switch is diverging or not, and then show the correct diverging or non-diverging indication.Obviously version 2 is much more complex. Oh, and I noticed you are only linking each signal to a max of three routes. You should check out Bruce Bridges' Conrail Indy route. In there he has signals that link to more routes than heads. It is possible to have a two or three head signal that is linked to five routes (or more). This is quite a complex interlocking, and for you to just have home signals at each end will be most prototypical, but also most complex. The way I see it, you'd need a five-route signal at B, and at A you'd need only a three-route signal, but something modified to read a switch-position signal at D. The rest would be only one, two or three-route signals.I'm only touching the surface here, so if you want more answers, feel free to ask more questions!Mark

Moffat Road Tabernash to Phippsburg
All track complete
Currently working on Mtracks

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-16-04 AT 08:07 AM (EDT)

Mark,Thanks. I have lots to learn about what signals can do. For now I think I will go with the modified plan as stated in message #1 above, which I can understand, and will proceed with my plan to begin uploading Version 4 of the route when yesterday's business gets pulled out.For what it's worth, with regard to surprise reds, the speed limits here are 10 MPH, coming out of the two Denver depots. The engineer will just have to understand that a yellow probably means a red just ahead. As you can see in the third picture below, there are even more signaled switches close by, in addition to the group that I had asked about, and there are at least 7 more, not pictured, on the way to Union Station, for crossovers, a crossing, and other diverges. All of this is in the first mile.PS: If you notice some odd indications in these Explore Route screenshots (2 yellows in picture 1), the reason is that I used zero degree switches in certain places to make the diverge be the default, in order to follow the primary path without having to throw switches.Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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>PS: If you notice some odd indications in these Explore
>Route screenshots (2 yellows in picture 1), the reason is
>that I used zero degree switches in certain places to make
>the diverge be the default, in order to follow the primary
>path without having to throw switches. How do you do that? Could you please post a diagram of how you set it up?Thanks!Bruce Bridges

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LAST EDITED ON Jun-16-04 AT 10:33 PM (EDT)

Bruce,With regard to the two yellows in picture 1 above, that happened because the next signals (at D and E) are red, because of zero degree switches up there that have been "reversed" to follow a default (unswitched) path over to the Moffat Road to points J and I.The zero degree switches come in left and right, like all of the others. In the normal situation, you would select the left, for instance, if the diverge (or I guess the tighter of two curves) goes to the left. This will keep the F-8 switch monitor honest, except that for some reason both the left and the right zero points show in F-8 as right switches (the diverge arrow pointing right in both cases). If I am recall correctly, the default a1t45dYardCrv left and right have the same error, or I should say the left I guess. CORRECTION: I'm editing this message, after seeing the pictures, to say that F-8 is a bit more screwed up than I realized with regard to the 0 degree left. Having said that about F-8, here is the scoop on zero points:What it looks like is a 3 meter straight, but with 2 blue poles outbound before adding more track onto it. One blue pole at the end, and one in the middle. The one on the end is for the default, normally straight lead, but you can put any track piece on it. The one in the middle, which is in fact 1.5 meters out verses 3 meters, is for the non-default lead, normally the curved diverge, but again you can put any track piece on it. You can have a normal straight with a diverge of any radius, or both curved, including a wye. You could even run both leads straight for a while, on top of each other, but I don't know why you would. What I have not determined is exactly how you select which lead to put the first track on. It is possible that clicking far out puts it on the default, and clicking toward the other end puts it on the diverge, but I never bothered to study that. I just did trial and error and then tested it, clicking to see blue poles. The second track of course attaches to the unused lead. Clicking on (selecting) a lead will tell you what you have. If selecting one makes the forward blue pole show, it is your default, and vice versa. Technically speaking, the zero point, besides being a switch, is a 3 meter straight and a 1.5 meter straight. Those are the basics for normal switching.As in the screenshots below of Prospect Junction, you can reverse the two leads. (This is a zero point left by the way.) I wanted the default, unswitched route to be the diverge to the left going to Union Station. The non-default lead is the straight C&S track south into the yards. So I just put the curved diverge on the forward default lead, and put the straight on the non-default mid-point lead. The first picture is with the switch set for its default diverge; the second picture is after throwing the switch to take the non-default straight.Do not hesitate to ask more about this if necessary. That goes for anyone else who may be reading also.Bruce, an unrelated question has come up only today. A Train-Simmer emailed me about a Speedster-UP issue, but went on to request help or advice about this: He loves my route as well as your Conrail Indy route. Mine uses your standard NEWROADS, and yours uses your NEWRDS with shadows. The issue of course is roads under track. All I could suggest is setting up separate MSTS games (I have 3 myself plus a 4th CD original for reference), or perhaps reinstalling default roads and seeing if if causes any problems with Indy. What are your thoughts, suggestions, advice, etc. with regard to this?Thanks.Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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Bruce,After getting my route uploaded, I took a look at Conrail Indy 2.0, and saw no conflict with regard to Newroads, and in fact no indication that you used those roads. I guess the email I got was in error. Sorry about that.Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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Don,I agree with what's been said here, this should be treated as one interlocking with home signals facing traffic into the interlocking on each track. I would put high signals on the tracks the are considered the main tracks into the interlocking and dwarf signals on the tracks that would carry reverse movements into the interlocking.What you need, however, is a home signal like the 3 head model you're using which has the capability to link several routes on each head. I don't think the script with those signals has that feature.You should look at Bruce's Conrail Indy Route which uses that kind of scripting where a home signal can be linked to as many as six independent routes.At some point, I hope to reissue my signal sets with this feature.I see exit signals hiding behind the home signals. Is this the setup on the prototype? Normally, I would place the exit signals at least the distance of the longest train away from the interlocking. Some signal rules stipulate that the speed set by the displayed aspect must be maintained until the entire train clears the interlocking. Unfortunately, there's no way in the current MSTS to overide a speed set by a signal except with another signal.Regards,
Hank

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Hank:While you're looking at scripts....The 2-headed searchlight dwarves tend to display green-over-green when a route is cleared through the normal route of a switch. I tried to edit the config file to display green-over-red and red-over-green but those settings get ignored...JBD

Jim Duncan
Midwest Rail Group

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Jim,G/G is the proper aspect for Clear on a 2 head SL dwarf according to NORAC rules. These signals are usually found in areas where the diverging routes are some slow speed, but the main route may need a normal or medium speed. Medium clear on this signal would be G/flR. G/R would be slow clear. There is no R/G. There is no aspect for approach, but there is medium approach, Y/flR.Regards,
Hank

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Jim,G/G is the proper aspect for Clear on a 2 head SL dwarf according to NORAC rules. These signals are usually found in areas where the diverging routes are some slow speed, but the main route may need a normal or medium speed. Medium clear on this signal would be G/flR. G/R would be slow clear. There is no R/G. There is no aspect for approach, but there is medium approach, Y/flR.Regards,
Hank

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AHA! That explains it! NORAC v. GCOR rules....If I want to modify the signals to display GCOR indications, is it just a matter of changing the light settings in the config file or is that also a scripting issue???JBD

Jim Duncan
Midwest Rail Group

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Hank,Thanks for your input. I will take a look at Bruce's Conrail and see what I can learn. As you can see, signals are not my specialty, and scripting is Greek to me. Somewhere I read that one should not get into scripting without a thorough understanding of it. I agree and that leaves me out, at least for the moment. A rather long moment at that. With regard to "exit signals hiding behind the home signals", all I can say is that there are locations where signals for opposing directions are placed back to back. I don't know what the prototype is in this close-in yard area or what rules were in effect at any point in time. I just tried to get things to work in MSTS activities.The new Version 4 of my route will enter the file library today. If a signal expert were to download the route ANYWAY, I would be interested in any comments, in light of the many signals in the first mile or so. However, I would not ask, or want, him to go to that effort if his only purpose was to evaluate signals.Thanks again for everything.
Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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