Computer freeze ups in route editor

I'm having more and more problems with total computer freeze up while working in the RE for my route, not just in high object count tiles (like 946) where the camera is extremely jumpy, but in extremely low object count tiles (like 29). Used to be that this was rare and only when I stayed in too long, but it is no longer rare and happens early on. Reinstalling MSTS helps for a little while. I'm getting pretty good at it.I've got a 2002 Dell Dimension 4400 desktop, Windows XP home, Pentium 4 1.60GHz, memory 768MB, plenty of hard drive space (120 GB half full where Train Sim is and another 20GB), BUT ONLY A 16 MB ATI GRAPHICS CARD. Yesterday I ordered a 128MB ATI 9200 graphics card for $80 (I don't want to send $500 for something more).Any thoughts on whether this might solve the problem, or what else might be wrong? At least I'll have improved frame rates when running trains.Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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RE: Computer freeze ups in route editor, enocell, May-30-04, 02:52 PM, (1) RE: Computer freeze ups in route editor, Swissie, May-30-04, 04:39 PM, (2) RE: Computer freeze ups in route editor, dwkarch, May-30-04, 06:28 PM, (3) RE: Computer freeze ups in route editor, Swissie, May-31-04, 06:20 AM, (4) RE: Computer freeze ups in route editor, dwkarch, May-31-04, 10:01 AM, (5) RE: Computer freeze ups in route editor, dwkarch, May-31-04, 03:58 PM, (6) RE: Computer freeze ups in route editor, Swissie, May-31-04, 05:26 PM, (7) RE: Computer freeze ups in route editor, dwkarch, May-31-04, 08:05 PM, (8) RE: Computer freeze ups in route editor, enocell, Jun-01-04, 03:36 PM, (9) RE: Computer freeze ups in route editor, dwkarch, Jun-04-04, 10:40 AM, (10)

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Moving uneditable(file you are not editing) world files to a temp folder helps a bit but DON*T add any track items, it will mess up TDB by removing all other sidings etc. You can add track and roads but it may cause problems, I'm experienced in that...
My route is unworkable without moving the files, I have XP2500, 1024MB RAM and Radeon 9600Pro. It seems that I have way too complex route, as it crashes sometimes without any actions before the crash.

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LAST EDITED ON May-30-04 AT 04:59 PM (EDT)

Hi Don, Teemu,just out of curiosity: How big are your .tdb and .rdb files (assuming you do not have interactive objects installed yet, so that the .tit and .rit files do not count)?As you well know, the RE becomes messy when running out of memory. This can also happen if you work on a relatively "light" tile under the following circumstances:- 1) Memory hungry "root files" for the route: Remember the RE permanently loads the route's .rdb, .rit., .tdb, .tit, .ref, the route's tsection.dat (dynamic track sections of your route), and all .dat files (sigscr, sigcfg, forest, gantry etc.) The .dat are rarely a problem, but if you use a lot of dyntrack on a large route (several hundred miles), plus have long stretches of roads, or many urban areas with lots of roads, then you might be dealing with a combined file size over 10MB - go figure...- 2) Furthermore, MSTS and it's RE load all tiles adjacent to the one you work on - if your tile is not at the very edge of a route, that means that together with the (light) tile you work on, 8 more tiles are loaded into memory. And if two or more of these are heavy with scenery, then you're bound for RE hick-ups of the serious kind, even while working on the light tile - simply because the memory hoggers next to it occupy too much RAM.A tipp: I recently ran into memory problems when I did some re-scenitizing on a long route, which already had interactive objects installed: The file sizes were - .tdb: 4812 KB
- .tit: 1615 KB
- .rdb: 5385 KB
- .rit: 415 KB
- local tsection.dat: 498 KBAdd 9 tiles many of which were in the 300 to 400 KB range as the original author was unaware of how to use the forest regions and planted thousands of plants manually (go figure...)After working 15 - 30 minutes in the route, when moving on a tile, the RE suddenly bombarded me with a gazillion of error messages that tree2.s, tree7.s, a1t100mstr.s, rd2l100mstr.s etc. could not be loaded (yet all was in the folders), followed by a total lock-up.Figured out that it had to do with memory, and decided that reducing the file size of one of the permanently loaded files offered a one-stop overall solution as compared to painstakingly convert 50+ world tiles from single object vegetation to forest regions. So I did a save, and deleted all ~w.bk files from the world folder. Fired up the RE again, then jumped to all tiles in the route with many roads, and deleted every single road section that was not in use for carspawners or had a grade crossing on it. Saved the changes to the scenery only (no to saving terrain changes), and after some 3 hours, ended with having the .rdb cut down from 5386 KB to 3812 KB. Quit the RE (which had not crashed anymore - interestingly) and went to the route's world folder. Where ever I found tiles that I had updated when removing roads, I deleted the new file (.w) and renamed the matching ~w.bk file... Result: The road sections I deleted are still in the route, but this time as simple scenery objects which the much smaller .rdb is unaware of now. Since then, no more memory problems on that route, and no detail lost (I love eye-candy routes...)Maybe an option to overcome some of your problems, and all in all the result of maybe a couple hours of deleting. Just be careful not to delete a road section which is directly adjacent to a carspawner, then you should not have any problems with a messed -up .rit and .rdb file. If you accidentally do, exit immediately without saving anything.Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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I'm not getting any send/don't send or any other error messages in the Route Editor, and used to be able to work in it for extended periods, even after a black (or sometimes white?) long rectangle showed up along the bottom, or when the sky turned pink.Instead, the computer freezes, requiring a manual shut down. It used to be rare, but now seems to happen early on, sometimes on my first camera move after the first jump from the start location. Turning the direction of the camera seems to be a fatal move in recent days, whereas moving slowly (End key) helps a lot when moving left or right, forward or back. It first became a problem when finishing off a few objects in my busiest tile (946 objects) which is also my start tile.Later it became a major problem after adding a series of wheel squeal sounds to a curve, but that copy of the route was deleted and replaced with a backup.It has seemed that after a freeze, the problem continues until I reinstall MSTS, which used to correct the freeze problem for a while. This is what caused me to think that it is a video card issue that caused corruption of the Route Editor. I assume it is rare for a video card to fail or become weaker, but I think it could happen, and certainly I have a weak one to begin with. In a few days, I'll see what I experience with the new one.In response to your comment, interactives have been installed for some time. I am now adding occasional sounds along the route (NO MORE WHEEL SQUEAL THOUGH). My database files are not that big (as shown below), and my largest world files (shown below in order of size) are not excessive either.Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/40ba601204987ae7.jpg

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Hello Donagreed, file size should not cause problems (except for that 608KB tile at the bottom which would be close to becoming critical on my system).Agreed also - the typical memory related crashes I was referring to would not freeze the entire computer. Looks like I misread that aspect in your first post. Hope the new vid-card helps - apart from having more powerful resources as a fringe benefit for running MSTS Another question: Did you install any new drivers (possibly also related to an OS update/patch being installed)? I've occasionally experienced updates that made my MSTS go fuzzy (e.g. screen going dark when loading MSTS, requiring me to switch off & on power on the main of the monitor in order for it to display MSTS). These are cases where I'd expect that a re-install of MSTS can indeed cure the problem - until the next incompatibility issue arises with another patch. Just an idea, though, nut maybe it's worth if you tried to figure out if and what you have installed / deleted from your computer around the time when the phenomenon started (if it can be traced back to such a precise moment, that is).Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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No new drivers have been installed for a long time. I accept Microsoft updates that I am advised of from time to time, generally I think related to security issues. I have reinstalled MSTS several times since the last one.Something else came to mind. Although it does not happen when I first load the route in the RE, when I use the jump option to go to another location, the initial picture that I get for a fraction of a second before it corrects itself or fully loads resembles snow-covered terrain. I assume that is actually white void prior to terrain being loaded. I don't recall how long that has been happening, or if it was always that way. I wonder if that is normal.Second, I wonder if changing my start tile would help. It is my largest tile. It seems that I can still move around on it a bit, but cannot jump to others without freeze. Maybe if I started on a low-volume tile, I could jump to other low-volume tiles. I may try that before or after installing the new video card. Strange.Thanks.Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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It appears that the problem may have been resolved, with the possible exception of working anymore on my highest density tile which I have not yet tested. I moved the start tile from that highest density tile to a lower density tile, and have been able to move around there and place an object, and then jump to another lower density tile and do the same, all without any jerky camera movements. I still hope to do a little bit on that highest density tile, so will see if I can.When I upload this latest revision to my route, I'll be sure to give it a safe start tile, and provide an appropriate warning, based upon further testing, to those who would want to open the route in the Route Editor.Thanks to both of you for your input.Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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Hi Don,so after all memory involved - is that 608 KB tile in your screenshot the old start tile you mentioned? When the out-of-memory problem starts to bite you, you will have a crash upon saving the latest changes to a tile. When you then go to the world folder, you notice that the save of the troublesome tile has resulted in a 1 KB file (empty, no scenery there but the terrain). Luckily, the RE saves .t files before updating the .tdb, .rdb etc, so these files are still intact and reflect the situation before you started adding things, thus renaming the 600+ KB back-up file lets you at least revert to a sound copy of the previous state of the route.I found out that I can still save by literally circumventing the problem. Meaning that I can save if I first jump far enough away from the trouble making tile, ideally even some tiles into the white void. Using the fps counter in the lower right corner of the screen as an indicator, I can observe how the RE releases the previously loaded tiles from memory (fps first drop to single digits, then soar to 59fps, 60fps). Once this process is complete, the RE is capable of saving the heavy tile without crashing. Of course, having a tile with 1500+ objects is not so desirable, as that many objects will cause stuttering when loading the tile in the sim, even on high end systems. But as I a) love to add eye-candy & detail to my favourite routes, and b) do work on some electrified routes where the gantry poles in an urban area with lots of sidings and industries can add up to 400 additional objects to a tile, I tend to fall for that trap from time to time...Lukas a.k.a Swissie

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LAST EDITED ON May-31-04 AT 08:06 PM (EDT)

Lukas,Yes, that 608 KB is the former start tile, full of two Denver depots and many tracks and buildings all around. Much of what shows in the screenshot below.I'm back to successfully adding wheel squeal sounds, starting 20 miles away from that tile. And howling wolves.Thanks for that advise about dealing with fat tiles.Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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Only the world files are large, tdb and rdb are slightly over 3MB. But because the tiles are from the city area, they contain really many (complex) objects.

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No problems now working on the highest object count tile, when moving all other world files to a temporary backup location. Also getting a frame rate on that tile in the RE of 27 with the new video card.Don

Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel Route

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