Train-Sim.Com
MSTS Route Design

Results of Loop Experiment

Notice to all visitors and members of the Train-Sim.Com message forums:
If you plan on using a signature banner in your posts, we would like to remind you that there is a maximum size for banners. That maximum is 450 pixels wide by 120 pixels high, and not to exceed 25k. Your compliance is appreciated. FORUM RULES Problems? There are two common reasons for problems with logging in and posting messages. The first is that you are running a firewall that prevents your messages from being sent to the server. The other is that you have cookies disabled; the DCForum software requires cookies to work properly.

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Printer-friendly copy Email this topic to a friend

Reading Topic #11891

Charter Member · 42 posts

LAST EDITED ON May-08-04 AT 10:40 AM (EDT)

As noted earlier (http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID6/11623.html#3), the prototype for the route I am building (Switch Back Gravity Railroad) topologically is an oval with a switchback at about the halfway point. I mentioned that my solution to the MSTS "loop restriction" was to put gaps on both extremes and, on each end, have specific sidings for arrivals and departures, and use activities to kind of provide continuity.The prototype oval is actually twisted over itself twice (two overpasses), and when I untwisted it on paper, I realized that, really, there was only one reverse loop.
Results of Loop Experiment – image 1Further, I realized that I might be able to get away with only one gap as shown. That, in fact, is the case. The position of that gap is the Mauch Chunk terminal, and, as before, there are parallel departure and arrival sidings (not shown here), each with a gap to interrupt track continuity. The left hand end, which used to have a gap also, is the Summit Hill terminal, and there is no longer any needed to have separate departure and arrival sidings.It is interesting to note that, if you warp the picture above slightly, the new track configuration is topologically equivalent to a wye (gleisdreieck for my German friends).Progress on the Switch Back Route can be followed at http://home.stny.rr.com/wniehoff/sbsim.htm .Walt

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: Results of Loop Experiment, OTTODAD, May-08-04, 12:35 PM, (1) RE: Results of Loop Experiment, WaltN, May-08-04, 01:19 PM, (2) RE: Results of Loop Experiment, OTTODAD, May-08-04, 04:21 PM, (3) RE: Results of Loop Experiment, WaltN, May-08-04, 05:17 PM, (4) RE: Results of Loop Experiment, OTTODAD, May-08-04, 05:41 PM, (5) Here we go loop-de-loop, sniper297, May-08-04, 07:33 PM, (6) RE: Here we go loop-de-loop, OTTODAD, May-08-04, 09:12 PM, (7) RE: Here we go loop-de-loop, OTTODAD, May-08-04, 10:38 PM, (8) RE: Here we go loop-de-loop, sniper297, May-09-04, 00:44 AM, (9) RE: Here we go loop-de-loop, OTTODAD, May-09-04, 12:35 PM, (11) RE: Here we go loop-de-loop, WaltN, May-09-04, 10:14 AM, (10) RE: Results of Loop Experiment, jlef, May-09-04, 06:01 PM, (12)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

Charter Member · 4897 posts

RE: Results of Loop Experiment

Walt,that - dash in the middle of the oval curve on the right is that where the track is broken, in which case you should have no problems running trains anywhere on the layout.However, if it is not, then the first time you have driven a train through the "Circle", the train setting the switches for it driving through them, you will be "trapped" in it, none of the switches in the Circle working anymore ! O t t o

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 42 posts

RE: Results of Loop Experiment

Yes. The dash represents the "gap," where the track is broken. I have, in fact, tested every route relevant to the prototype, and I expect that every possible route will work.It would have been nice if Kuju had documented a definition of "loop" when they declared it as a restriction.Walt

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 4897 posts

RE: Results of Loop Experiment

There's a lot that can be achieved with Loops, Walt !This is from one of my Tracks Layouts Test Routes. Loops work best with entry and exit signals.O t t oResults of Loop Experiment – image 2

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 42 posts

RE: Results of Loop Experiment

Yikes, Otto. Where do I find the rules?I know from routes I've used that reverse loops and, certainly, wyes are possible, but I have not stumbled into the "rule book."Walt

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 4897 posts

RE: Results of Loop Experiment

There are no "Rules" which are chiselled into stone, Walt. It's more a question of confusing the TDB without MSTS committing suicide ! My Multi Loops Test Route is the result of weeks of trial and error, the results put to good use in ENOCELL's Route I hacked, adding loops at all line ends, filling in gaps here and there, which so far has not got me trapped in a Circle ! Basically a Loop is a dead end as far as the TDB is concerned. It sees only one path into it, replaced by the path out of it taken by a train leaving it. That's why the entry switch can not be used, it's path being frozen by the train departing the Loop. However, once again there is a work-around discovered by SWISSIE, which lets you move this frozen Loop entry switch by using the "Rear Switch" function. Evidence that MSTS is now totally confused ! O t t oResults of Loop Experiment – image 3

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 5767 posts

Here we go loop-de-loop

One thing to bear in mind is that switches, and therefore reverse loops and/or circular paths, work differently in explore route than they do in activities. Continuous paths are possible on PO&N8, and in explore mode once you run a short circle the switches are locked into that circle forevermore. In a freestyle activity (where you drive beyond the end point, off the Holy Path) it don't do that, since the path doesn't "project" as far ahead.Results of Loop Experiment – image 4Here's the shortest possible circle, requires throwing about a dozen manual switches in either direction. In the activities, once the last switch is thrown to complete the circle, the next switch ahead resets to straight, thus breaking the circle and leaving all manual switches still controllable.Results of Loop Experiment – image 5Crossovers like this hide the circuit from MSTS, if the player doen't throw a switch curved, he's heading into a dead end track.Results of Loop Experiment – image 6Coming up the North Pass, approaching the Combs Landing cutoff (gotta fix them signs). If I don't throw this switch, I'm heading for the south Newcastle wye, if I don't throw THAT switch I go thru Newcastle to the north Newcastle wye, curve there I'm heading to Armstrong, leave it straight I'm going thru Davis Ridge/Clitheroe Junction to a dead end in the Xacto copper mine. Without throwing a switch curved SOMEWHERE, you're always heading for an eventual dead end. Results of Loop Experiment – image 7Throwing the switch curved, I'm now heading for a dead end track in Combs Landing.Results of Loop Experiment – image 8Unlike a main divide, this overhead arrow indicates an immediate dead end.Results of Loop Experiment – image 9Note F8 switch arrow in lower right corner, the switchlamp is linked to the curve track, so with the switch straight the signal shows red.Results of Loop Experiment – image 10Throw the switch curved, the switchlamp spins around to green, headed for the mainline again.It's now possible with those kind of shenanigans to drive continuously around the whole PO&N either clockwise or counter clockwise, and if you're familiar enough with the route you can reverse directions. The PO&N is so completely loopy now people are gonna confuse it with the Chicago Elevated.Results of Loop Experiment – image 11

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 4897 posts

RE: Here we go loop-de-loop

Great looking pics and story line, Jim, more to learn ! Grabbed that map of the circle. Where do you start ? Is it an existing activity or did you create one just for this exercise ?I like those signs so that even guys with a belly full of cognac should know where to go ! Where did that Signal Indicator in the top left of your loco's cab come from, mine has not got ? Glad to have you around again ! Getting back to the good old days ! Take Care, O t t o.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 4897 posts

RE: Here we go loop-de-loop

So I had a go at that Circle Route and created an Activity starting at Combs Landing going North.First in Explore Mode and sure enough, having completed a circle, all switches in it were frozen.Next in the Activity and after completing 2 circles was able to exit it anywhere I liked. Doesn't seem logical, but who cares, it worked ! Now that is something else again I learned from you Jim ! May it never end ! Take Care, O t t o.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 5767 posts

RE: Here we go loop-de-loop

The signal aspect repeater is one I'm currently working on, I'm still trying to decide if it's too big. Gets your attention when it changes to red tho, I don't need the track monitor anymore!For a small circle, try this:http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/DCForumID15/3498.html

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Charter Member · 4897 posts

RE: Here we go loop-de-loop

LAST EDITED ON May-09-04 AT 12:37 PM (EDT)

Small Circle, ha, ha, Jim ! It's almost as big as the one I can run in my hacked version of the N.&.J.C.
Results of Loop Experiment – image 12I like the size of your Cab Signal indicator ! As you said, it sure catches the driver's eye ! Take Care, O t t o.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Member since Apr-12-03 · 273 posts

RE: Results of Loop Experiment

Wow, how did you manage THAT?!?Any suggestions on where to place signals or what I can do to this so it works too, without the gap? I put in the gap so it can't freeze.By the way, signal locations won't matter, as I would hide them underground and there will be no visible signal locations.

Attachments
Results of Loop Experiment – image 13
http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/409eaa1d734fe819.jpg

Alert | IP


[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | File Library ] Copyright © 2004 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.

Restored from the Train-Sim.Com archive, captured June 21, 2004. About this archive.