Track on Grades and B&O Information

I am trying to model the old B&O West End (now CSXT) between Cumberland MD and Grafton WV. I am starting with the Cranberry Grade between Rowlesburg and Terra Alta WV. I have done the RGE with 10m DEM, marker files with USAPhotomaps and Waypoint and am ready to think about laying track. Two questions:1. Any ideas of sources of information on the track layouts from the 60's, or even the modern trackwork. I really can't tell that kind of detail from the aerials.2. Any tips on how to lay the track to get reasonable grades. I know the DEM data is not that preciseThanks

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RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, ckawahara, May-05-04, 11:38 AM, (1) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, ejbentz, May-05-04, 11:46 AM, (2) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, crstagg, May-05-04, 11:49 AM, (3) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, SRiley77, May-05-04, 12:37 PM, (4) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, landnrailroader, May-09-04, 01:30 PM, (14) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, Hack, May-05-04, 01:05 PM, (5) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, rmays, May-06-04, 11:38 AM, (6) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, SRiley77, May-06-04, 02:43 PM, (7) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, landnrailroader, May-09-04, 01:48 PM, (16) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, Signalmaster, May-06-04, 03:29 PM, (8) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, Hack, May-06-04, 04:19 PM, (9) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, Signalmaster, May-06-04, 04:31 PM, (10) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, Hack, May-06-04, 09:28 PM, (11) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, landnrailroader, May-09-04, 01:34 PM, (15) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, Engineer, May-06-04, 09:37 PM, (12) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, rmays, May-07-04, 04:32 AM, (13) RE: Track on Grades and B&O Information, FireEngine, May-11-04, 08:56 AM, (17)

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Start here...http://borhs.org/

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Greetings -1. I would recommend checking http://trainsite.8m.com for track charts. A track chart will give you info on grades, curves, mileposts, etc. in varying detail. They can be a little expensive but I have found the one I purchased to be worth every penny.2. I use a program called Poker, which can be downloaded at http://www.simsig.co.uk/msts/mstspoker/mstspoker.html. It will take the numbers on your track chart, like grade percentages and degrees of curvature and convert them in to numbers that you can plug in to the appropriate fields in the Route Editor. A word of caution though: there will be times when you must compromise.I'll pass along two words of advice that have helped me immensely:1. Don't be a perfectionist. Try to convey the feel, the look of your route. 2. Keep in mind that it is your route. That doesn't mean that you don't care what others think of it but it does mean that what others think of it is secondary to what you think of it.*steps down from soapbox*Eric

"You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take." - Wayne Gretzky

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See the June/2004 issue of TRAINS for the tracks at M&K Junction in 1980. Mag may not be on newsstands yet.

Charles

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LAST EDITED ON May-05-04 AT 12:44 PM (EDT)

I would agree with the others.. Start off with the track chart from the B&O Historical Society. Those track charts, to my knowledge, are railroad issue, from the 80's.. Considering what you're modeling, the gradient will be there.
If you're not adverse to spending a few dollars, you might also want to consider purchasing the Charles Roberts authored book entitled "West End". This book is a point by point, almost mile per mile covering of the line from a historical and photographic point of view. There might not be a lot there for a train sim route builder.. On the other hand, it could prove to be priceless.. It's also at the B&O Historical Society, under "books".
After seeing what the B&O Historical Society has to offer, then you might want to go to the other site mentioned earlier.. Mr. Cramer has a very nice selection there, I've personally purchased charts from him.. A quick peek there shows that he has B&O track charts from the mid 60's there, chessie charts from the mid 80's, but no csx charts of which to speak..
Below is the .jpg file from the B&O Historical Society, which is one page of the track chart..
Scott Riley

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I would like to point out that the image shown of Piedmont is not a track chart, but something CSX calls a "Beaver Map". This is because Bernie Beavers, a locomotive Engineer out of Cumberland, who has a knack for hand-drawing these things has produced 8.5x11 images of virtually every mile on CSX. They are accurate as to track layout, but lack some data of interest, and their purpose was to aid in training new crews.J. H. Sullivan
(retired from CSX, and a friend of Bernie Beavers)

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Aside what has already been mentioned, another resource would be to purchase a copy of the CSX Mountain Sub by Pentrex. Here's a couple of other links that should keep you busy for a while:CSX Mountain Sub at Trainweb
Mountain Subdivision at Mtnsub.org
CSX Mountain Sub - B&O West EndCheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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Thanks to all of you. I had visited the BORHS site before but didn't realize I could find detailed charts there. I will also be visiting the other sites suggested.I will definitely take the advice to heart about not trying to be too perfect - it is clear that is not practical in any case.And I will look forward to the June Trains for the M&K Junction info. I have good details on that for the old trackage from an old MR Magazine article.Regarding the track laying, I was really looking for some advice on how to go about getting reasonable grades on the DEM terrain without overdoing the Y key. Are there any "tricks of the trade" for laying the track to a consistent steady (more or less)grade without overly disturbing the lay of the land?Thanks again. Those of you who actively participate in the forums are a wonderful resource.I would also note to Michael Vone, who I believe visits this forum, that I would never have dreamed of building a route if not for your book. Doing First Route was great fun.

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There is one piece of advise that I can give, although it isn't as though I'm the grand master of route building (haven't finished or released a single one, yet). I've been around from the beginning, watched and learned from the best.
This bit of advise comes from a conversation I had with Rich Garber from sometime in 2002. Basically, it's this.. Any route done in MSTS is an interpretation.. It's virtually impossible for you to make an exact copy of the west end, just the way the game works won't allow for it. What you'll do then, is make your interpretation of the west end, based on the actual line. With that in mind, go ahead and follow the track charts to the best of your ability, go ahead and try to place every house and building exacly the way it is in real life.. Just don't hesitate to make changes where necessary. Do what you need to in order to make the game fun..
Most importantly, have fun while making the route. If it isn't enjoyable for you, then it isn't worth doing..
Scott Riley

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The question you have raised is the $64 one.The problem is that most CSX & related track charts, and for that matter most trackcharts do not give the absolute elevation above MSL, so you have to go to a topomap and find some points that are reasonably close. Digitze those into your marker file - I usually have a note for my marker like E-800M, meaning Elevation 800 Meters, and I keep a small calculator handy since most topo. maps in the US are in feet.Now having done that, the track chart will give you the gradient, but it will varie all over the place because it is what is called a compenstated grade. Cranberry for example, if memory serves me, is about 2%, but on a 10 degree curve, the grade will reduce to maybe 1.75% to allow for curve friction - in otherwords to make it feel like 2% to the locomotive.We cannot easily do that, so pick two elevation points, one near the bottom & one near the top of the grade. In UsaPhotomaps, generate a route between those points - it works on 5280' miles, whereas the railroad may have them any length, but this is okay. Let us say you measure 5 miles, and the difference in elevation is 528 feet, then
(528/(5 x 5280))x100 = 2.0 i.e. 2%. Determine what this is in terms of MSTS gradient (about 1.15), and then lay your entire hill between these points at that gradient. With experience you will learn to adjust the gradient slightly to improve the accuracy, but if you are off a meter or so, it is no big deal.Curves present another problem. There is no good way to do spirals in MSTS, although on the RMD-2 and RMD-4, I have put a 500M-5D or 10D piece ahead of a group of endpoint 10D pieces or a dynamic track just to make it look a little better. Again, we cannot duplicate real routes exactly, but the object is to capture the flavor.J. H. Sullivan

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The recent issue of TRAINS inspired me to create a 'snapshot' route of the Rowlesburg area. A few hours of diligence and I came up with the screen capture below from the Salt Lick Rd bridge. Check the hill profile with the photo on the bottom of page 62.The route, at the start, will run ~ 10miles east and west form here with the Kingswood branch. I've got track in from the west end of the yard to Tunnelton. Quite a grade.Unfortunately, I have no track or physical characteristic charts, so the grade is eyeball reading of the 24K USGS maps. Reading the map, there seems to be 2 substantial trestles just west of Rowlesburg. There may be a tunnel or 2 in that area also.The last time I ordered CHessie(B&O) road maps from the B&O Museum, it took 3 months to get them.

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Since we appear to be in show-and-tell mode, I'll show what I've been tinkering with...and tell later. Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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Hi, MarkLooks like I'm going to need Mosaic for that nice roadbed look. When your scale rails come out, how will they mesh with xtracks?Off topic: Since MSTS2 is DOA, will M$ be working at all on cleaning up some of the more egregious bugs in v1?Regards,
Hank

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Mosaic certainly is of great help. As for ScaleRail and X-Tracks, the two are not visually compatible, but can coexist if need be. Mine is simply a visual alternative to the default models.Cheers!
Marc - 3DTrains
http://www.3dtrains.comPro Series SuperPacks

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That looks like a real good snapshot of M&K to me. I just finished working up the land arrangements along this line, and so am fairly familiar with what is there.J. H. Sullivan

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Great to see the B&O worked on!
Has anyone done the old Camden Yard area?

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Again thanks to all who responded. I had no idea there was so much interest in the West End. Maybe I can give some useful information this time instead of just getting it.I haven't seen the Trains article yet. I am currently living in the Netherlands and my copy takes forever to arrive. For those interested in M&K Junction as it was laid out in late 50's/early 60's, get a copy of the March 1962 Model Railroader article from Kalmbach publishing. This is from the days when the West End was B&O and carried lots of coal, hot merchandise freights, and was the main B&O passenger route from Balto/Wash to St Louis. M&K Junction was home base to F7 ABBA helper units and had a full engine servicing facility. The branch went all the way to Morgantown and handled lots of coal and local freight.For those interested in the West End today (now the CSX Mountain Subdivision), visit www.wvrail.railfan.net for a thorough description of operations, general trackage arrangements and lots of great photographs. Signalmaster, the two viaducts you mention west of Rowlesburg, on the Cheat River Grade are probably the 76 Fill, and the famous Tray Run Viaduct. These are described on the wvrail site.Great screenshots. I hope my version ends up half as good. Marc, if you guys are up to something great (I am sure you are) give us some more hints.

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This is Jon. I have been always interested in the route and would love to help you build it in anyway I can that's possible. Since you're going to start in Rowlesburg, WV are you going to take it all the way to Cumberland, WV when you build this route? Also I would like to know when this route is going to be ready or when I can download this route. I am so much looking forward to this being done since I've always like this route. Please reply back to me and let me know. Thanks a lot.

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