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bobs (100 posts)
Aug-16-01, 06:17 PM (EST) "Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" I have uploaded my changes to the MSTS-shipped Marias Pass route at Train-Sim.com, which I'm considering V1.0 for numbering purposes. Things that were fixed or changed include:Mileposts -- now exist every mile, or at every mainline switch intersection or station.Mileage -- now more closely matches the official BNSF timetable. I had to make some assumptions here, so not everything is exact, but it is better than it was. Named stations were assumed to be at the East end of sidings in most cases as that matched the official TT better.Speed Zones -- now match the BNSF timetable to the new mileage markers. Where in doubt, I placed speed zones where they made sense to me. Advance warning signs are 2 miles prior to most zones. Overall speed limit on route increased to 79 MPH per prototype, although it only applies to passenger trains.
Crossings -- All crossings were reworked. Hidden crossbucks were unhidden, Japanese models were replaced with US models, and all crossing arms work. At many crossings I shortened the activation time and distance so you will see traffic crossing instead of always seeing the cars waiting for you. Raise/lower time for arms increased to 6 seconds which looks more realistic. Where a crossing was nearby, signals were moved around the crossing so that trains stopped at the signal do not block auto traffic.Auto Traffic -- Cars were on the "wrong" side of the road, for Montana anyway, in a couple of places and were fixed. Several new auto spawners were added for additional realism.
Sounds -- several were fixed, especially at crossings where the transition from track sound to crossing sound was often backwards.More accurate signals -- Thanks to Conn McCarthy and Hank Sundermeyer, the signals on this route were replaced with searchlights from their V2.0 signal files. I don't know which type is on the actual route (probably 3 lights) but I was having too much trouble getting the additional aspects and indications to work on the three lights, so I used theirs. Additional signals added at all intersections with the main line. Advance warning now given to siding entrances. Additional aspects/indications developed. Track -- The orphan helix was deleted.Timetable -- A Word document in a format similar to the official BNSF timetable, containing all stations, speed zones, switch directions, and rules. Bring your glasses, it is small!And probably some things I mention in the readme file that I'm forgetting now.Things I didn't tackle: Repair of any dips, bumps, or moguls. The route is still as bumpy as before. I also didn't do anything that would fix the derail/uncoupling problems at Piegan, Cut Bank, or Teton. I didn't change any switches from auto to manual or the reverse. I've tested the install process on a pristene copy of MSTS and it worked for me, so it should work for you. The zipped file is just over 8 MB, so it will take a while to download (go watch a real train in the meantime).Now, once you have installed this puppy over the original (which you backed up, right?) I'd like to know of any goofs you find so I can fix them. I consider this a BETA release. I've already found a few in the timetable file. I also didn't spend much time on the Kalispell Branch, other than to fix crossings. I'll get to that next time. I don't profess to be a signaling expert, so I'm sure some of the signals will show aspects and indications that aren't right. Please point those out and I'll fix them. I also have no clue as to where a gradient plate is used as I saw them on flat sections of the route in many spots, and not on the grades. If someone can tell me where they belong, I can make those changes too.I have run all of the MSTS-shipped activities against the updated route and they seem to work just fine, although a couple of mentions of mileposts in the text no longer match.Phew! This was a lot of work, but boy did I learn a lot about the route editor! I hope you enjoy it. Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... SP9800 Aug-16-01 1 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-17-01 2 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bleuzzmann Aug-17-01 3 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... CPR_Malice_96th Aug-17-01 4 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-17-01 5 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... Survivor Aug-26-01 30 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... dudley007 Aug-30-01 44 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-31-01 46 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-31-01 45 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-17-01 6 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... trainjog Aug-17-01 7 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-17-01 8 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... trainjog Aug-17-01 11 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-18-01 15 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... trainjog Aug-18-01 16 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... davidbeach Aug-17-01 9 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-17-01 10 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... Paul_Remis Aug-17-01 12 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... Paul_Remis Aug-17-01 13 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-17-01 14 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... trainjog Aug-18-01 17 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-18-01 18 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... trainjog Aug-18-01 19 184 Downloads so far bobs Aug-19-01 20 RE: 184 Downloads so far trainjog Aug-19-01 22 RE: 184 Downloads so far bobs Aug-19-01 23 RE: 184 Downloads so far dcrano Aug-20-01 26 RE: 184 Downloads so far bobs Aug-20-01 27 RE: 184 Downloads so far dcrano Aug-22-01 28 Multiple copies of the route bobs Aug-31-01 47 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... blattan Aug-19-01 21 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-19-01 24 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... rdamon Aug-19-01 25 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... dcrano Aug-26-01 29 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... SR1950 Aug-27-01 31 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... Hussar Aug-27-01 32 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... Hussar Aug-27-01 33 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-28-01 35 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... dcrano Aug-28-01 37 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... JoeDiamond Aug-29-01 39 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-31-01 48 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... dcrano Aug-31-01 50 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... davidbeach Sep-01-01 51 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Sep-02-01 52 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... TrainFreak Aug-28-01 34 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... bobs Aug-28-01 36 RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA po... Hussar Aug-29-01 38 Signal problems.. the other kind funnelfan Aug-29-01 40 forgot to mention funnelfan Aug-29-01 41 RE: forgot to mention Hussar Aug-29-01 42 RE: forgot to mention rdamon Aug-30-01 43 RE: forgot to mention bobs Aug-31-01 49

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SP9800 (26 posts)
Aug-16-01, 08:45 PM (EST) 1. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Just curious, but did you compress the unicode files with FFEdit before putting them in your .zip? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-17-01, 00:02 AM (EST) 2. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" No, I didn't. I didn't realize there were any that needed to be packed. I didn't unpack any when I started this.But, now that I'm looking at the files, I see that the .w files in the \WORLD directory are uncompressed, while the ones in my backup directory are compressed. ANOTHER thing I didn't know about.I will investigate and pack and reload. If I'm lucky, I'll get the smaller version uploaded before they pull their uploads for posting for the day. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bleuzzmann (227 posts)
Aug-17-01, 09:57 AM (EST) 3. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Can someone tell me if changing the route to this version 2 changes ANY of the already posted ACTIVITIES?I'm a bit concerned that something in the activity files might rely upon something that's been altered in this V2.0 file. Signals? Switches? Anything?Thanks! I'm very interested in unzipping this to my drive but don't want to screw up the activities in doing so. Bill Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
CPR_Malice_96th (146 posts)
Aug-17-01, 11:17 AM (EST) 4. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Great Job !!I can't wait to get to try this...All those things you listed are all things I would love to see in there.Great WorkTim Kent
CPR_Malice
Winnieg, Canada Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-17-01, 11:44 AM (EST) 5. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" I have tested all of the MSTS-shipped activities and they run just fine. I've also run Ted Curphy's #1 activity and it is fine also. While I haven't messed with the activity editor yet, I don't believe activites rely on signals. None of the track was changed, so none of the paths along that track should be affected. To be safe, you should backup the directories that will be changed prior to applying the changes just in case things don't turn out as you expect. But that's always good practice and you were probably going to do that already, right?I found one thing in one activity that I didn't expect, but it is technically correct. In the Cutbank grain activity towards the end, you go through the crossovers to get to the opposite main, then proceed into the north sidings. If you back up past the crossover far enough to see the signal, it stays red until you reverse the engine, then clears. When you get to the siding signal, it won't clear. The reason is that the path to the cut of cars shows the track is occupied (all the switches are already thrown so the signal thinks the track isn't clear, which it isn't. Pressing the tab key to get the dispatcher provides permission to pass the stop signal, which is also technically correct. I would prefer to have the activity designed such that you have to throw a switch manually to get to the cut of cars. THis would have allowed the signal to show a restricting aspect. If the original route had a signal there, perhaps the design would have been done that way. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Survivor (7 posts)
Aug-26-01, 11:26 PM (EST) 30. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Unfortunately the answer to that is yes.I ran into a problem when picking up my helper on the Pool Freight activity. The siding though manual is protected by signals. A clear is given on the way through, but when you go to back up to collect the engine the light stays red, refuses to accept or decline on any permission to pass requests. The aftermath is your activity ends when you back up past the red signal. The problem might be because it's a manual switch but I'm not sure.Too bad because I really enjoyed the searchlight signals, and number of mileposts etc. Sean Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dudley007 (2 posts)
Aug-30-01, 06:19 PM (EST) 44. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-01 AT 06:20 PM (EST)If you don't pass the signal, but pull right up to it, you can throw the switch and back up to your cars and off you go. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-31-01, 00:28 AM (EST) 46. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" That's a BIG if. Those of us with less of a "touch" with the consist can't always stop just where we want to. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-31-01, 00:27 AM (EST) 45. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" In the code that determines how the signal functions, there is no distinction made between an occupied siding vs. some other reason to show a stop indication. I think the code may have to be changed to allow this you to stop and proceed.But, in most cases the places where I put these signals wouldn't have signals in the real world, so I'm going to take them back out. This should solve the problem. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-17-01, 11:51 AM (EST) 6. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" I have packed the .w files with FFEDIT and rebuilt the zip and it is about 1 MB smaller. I'm working with Nels to get the smaller version posted. Thanks for asking about this because I wouldn't have found this step otherwise. The documentation on steps required to complete a route is just horrible! FFEDIT is only mentioned in the TECHDOCS, and the directions to use it aren't correct. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
trainjog (16 posts)
Aug-17-01, 12:23 PM (EST) 7. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" >At many crossings I shortened the activation
>time and distance so you will see traffic crossing instead
>of always seeing the cars waiting for you. Raise/lower
>time for arms increased to 6 seconds which looks more
>realistic.Great, maybe You can help me out on this: How do You make the gates open and close?
On an European Route some of the gates operate backwards, maybe I will be able to fix them.>Now, once you have installed this puppy over the original (which
>you backed up, right?) I'd like to know of any
>goofs you find so I can fix them.Can't wait for Nels to put Your file on-line.
I'll try it out at once..Christian Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-17-01, 01:58 PM (EST) 8. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" I haven't looked at the european routes yet, so I don't know for sure how the gates were built. If you can provide the route and the lat/long for one of the ones that is wrong I'll take a look. In case you don't know how, to get the lat/long numbers, press the 0 (zero) key to display the compass, hit escape where you want to stop, and copy off the numbers.My guess is the gates were placed backwards, or something like that. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
trainjog (16 posts)
Aug-17-01, 06:05 PM (EST) 11. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" >If you can provide the route
>and the lat/long for one of the ones that is
>wrong I'll take a look. Sure thing. Here it is:Settle & Carlisle Route:
Lat: 54.83314
Lon: - 2.77390(Took me aprox 5 mins to drive the 6 miles down the track to find the coordinates )It would be great if You could solve the puzzle. It is very strange to watch the cars go right through the gates.

>
>My guess is the gates were
>placed backwards, or something like
>that. I will look forward to the clues You can give me.
Thank You for Your time, and have a nice week-end.Christian
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bobs (100 posts)
Aug-18-01, 00:41 AM (EST) 15. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" I took a look at this crossing, and in the route editor it looks fine. So, I ran a train down to the crossing. After driving off on some dead ends at first, then the wrong side of the tracks, I finally got there and I see the problem. The gate is closed when it should be open, and vice versa. The cars stop like they should, but the gate operates the opposite of how it should.So, back to the route editor. I can't see any way of reversing the operation of this thing, so my conclusion is that it is something in the graphic that is backwards. I've seen animation mentioned in the techdocs, but I haven't seen how to make something animated, so I'm out of ideas.There are a couple of other minor problems with the gate that I noticed. If you try to place a new one, which I did, and hit the H key to place it on the ground, it is really up in the air. If you manually lower it so the bottom of the post just disappears, the bottom of the gate is under the road! And for that particular crossing, to put the center of the gate over the center of the road (the dashed line), one of the posts ends up inside the adjoining fence. I guess you wouldn't notice it if you drove by in a train quickly, but...I assume other gates exist on this route and do the same thing? Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
trainjog (16 posts)
Aug-18-01, 12:36 PM (EST) 16. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Thanks for trying Christian
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davidbeach (64 posts)
Aug-17-01, 03:42 PM (EST) 9. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Bob,More power to you. Thats a lot of the things I wanted to do, but having started through it several times, having learned more than the time before, and then having it completely wipe out the whole west end of the route, I just never found the energy to try again. The more I worked with it, the less and less impressed I was with the work of the original "author" and fixing everything I wanted to fix became more and more daunting. When I looked at the grades of the track sections on the west slope, between summit and Java, what I found was alternating sections of 5.24% grade (3 degree slope) and level. Not nearly as real as it could get. So now I am building the NP Palouse & Lewiston, using NP profiles to get every curve and grade correct - means that every curve will have to be constructed with dynamic track, but oh well. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-17-01, 04:08 PM (EST) 10. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" I kind of figured you had moved on to other things, but, liking a challenge every now and then, I decided to follow your lead. I didn't touch the track though. The signals about did me in, so I'll leave the track for some other time! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Paul_Remis (7 posts)
Aug-17-01, 10:06 PM (EST) 12. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Bob, please see my post above about combining modifications from two separate enhanced versions. It becomes important to me because I would love to include your modifications to my "modifications". If I install your fixes, obviously I will overwrite my own changes. Is there some workaround?Paul Remis
Tarzana, CA Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Paul_Remis (7 posts)
Aug-17-01, 10:09 PM (EST) 13. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Bob, please see my post above about combining modifications from two separate enhanced versions. It becomes important to me because I would love to include your modifications to my "modifications". If I install your fixes, obviously I will overwrite my own changes. Is there some workaround?Paul Remis
Tarzana, CA Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-17-01, 10:38 PM (EST) 14. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Paul, see my answer to your other post. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
trainjog (16 posts)
Aug-18-01, 12:55 PM (EST) 17. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Excuse me for asking, but is the file called new_usa2.zip at 6035 Kb's? It is the only one Nels has got, but the date throw me off.. so is this the one or have Nels not posted it yet?Christian Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-18-01, 02:08 PM (EST) 18. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" LAST EDITED ON Aug-18-01 AT 02:15 PM (EST)No, it should be MARIAS20.ZIP. The file you saw is probably the one posted earlier where all the switches were made manual.I just checked and Nels hasn't posted it yet. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
trainjog (16 posts)
Aug-18-01, 04:52 PM (EST) 19. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Thanks Bobs. Will be checking again tomorrow.Have a nice week-endChristian
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bobs (100 posts)
Aug-19-01, 02:20 PM (EST) 20. "184 Downloads so far" Wow, 184 downloads and the files were only posted this morning!! Please remember this is a beta and I've already found a couple of minor problems, especially with which signals I used in a couple of spots. Also, there are two missing track pieces on the Kalispell branch just north of the first street crossing in Columbia Falls. The track continuity is there and the train will ride through the air over these two sections. I never touched them, so some bug in the route editor has deleted the graphic. I tried replacing them, but it blew up the editor each time. The track database will have to be rebuilt and I don't want to do that until this is all done, if then!Lastly, I'd really like feedback on problems you find. But I'll be on vacation 8/21-28 and won't be able to respond. I expect I'll come back to a lot of messages! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
trainjog (16 posts)
Aug-19-01, 05:16 PM (EST) 22. "RE: 184 Downloads so far" Now, I got it I installed Your version with no problems. (I just keep a copy of the original USA2 just in case some nasty bug surface ) None serious, so far However, You asked for reports, so here is my 2 cents.I like the new signals, and I especially like that the cars now drive in the right side of the road.I haven't spotted a crossing You have missed, Yet.
I will, of course, keep looking for the unthinkable The only thing I stumbled across is the following:When selecting Explore Route, You are presented with a list of mileposts and site-names where You can selsect to begin Your journey, however not every choice places You where You expect.Selecting Essex, places You at mile Marker 1166.x just beside a line-hut reading Java West.
Selecting Glacier Park, by two ocasions, placed me more than 30 miles west of Glacier Park, at an unknown siding.
I did not find out where I was, but the longitude read 114.7xx West where Glacier Park is at 113.217. Latitude was aprox. correct. (Glacier Park was at least 1/2 hours journey away, in the opposite direction of where I was placed. Had to use the Wye present to face the right direction.)I deleted the works and installed the backup of USA2 and copied Your files once more. Same result, but this time I actually got to Glacier Park, selecting that on the menu, on one occation.
Essex is still out.Despite this minor glitch, that I can work my way around, Your version is sure to stay in my copy of MSTS. (I hope You have come about a solution with this other Gentleman who wanted to combine Your changes and his ditto to the Marias Pass Route. I am sure this is possible, as long as You are dealing with differnt World-tiles. Maybe we should start a new thread about combining 2 tiles into one.)Thank You for sharing Your work, and happy hours trainsimming and developing. Christian
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bobs (100 posts)
Aug-19-01, 10:05 PM (EST) 23. "RE: 184 Downloads so far" Christian,There is one crossing I missed, on the Kalispell branch. Let's see if you can find it! While I hadn't done much to Kalispell with 2.0, I did try to fix the crossings.On using the Explore, I believe, but don't know for sure, that the locations and directions listed in the pull down come from the other activities. Once you list something for an activity it can appear in the Explore version. Of course, many of those things aren't where they used to be with repsect to mileage, although I'm surprised they would use mileage as a guide anyway.In a post on the General forum, someone said he opened the activities in the activity editor and forced a resave and then things were fine. You might want to try that. I've run the activities themselves with little trouble, and I may be totally off as to where that list of locations is generated, in which case ignore all this!I have found one signal problem. I was trying the pool freight activity from boxcabbob. When you get to Essex, you have to break the train and insert a helper engine. When I went to back into the east end of siding 6 to pick up the engine, the signal was red (which it should be) and the dispatcher would not give permission to pass it. Don't know why. I tried to pass it anyway, and was allowed into the siding. Hmmm. So I pulled the engine out, lined the switch for normal and again asked the dispatcher. He still wouldn't give me permissioin, so again I tried to pass the signal anyway. This time it stopped the activity and said I ignored a red signal. So, I can't get back to my train! Since there were no signals there when the activity was built, it wasn't a problem before.I've tried an experiment by changing a signal script to allow Stop and Proceed at that type of signal and it does seem to let me stop and go past the signal, but I'm not sure that is the right answer.
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dcrano (14 posts)
Aug-20-01, 02:25 AM (EST) 26. "RE: 184 Downloads so far" Great job on Ver 2.0, really looks nice and functions well. At least with all the stock activities. But did run into a couple strange ones with some add-on activities though.With the After Noon Freight file name 'redwhite.zip'. There is a set meet with an AI at Columbia Falls, as shown below. With MS vers 1.0 route it works fine, with your vers 2.0 it ends up in a stand off. Funny thing is in the Activity Editor even with 2.0 it works properly, which ever gets the area first, AI or Player sets the signals properly, but in the sim, the AI locks Red, and this will also set the players signal to red. The AI on the far side is set to go into the Wye and it appears the route is set up to do so, but the signal is still red. I even tried holding back for over an 1/2hr before entering the yard to allow the AI to get through, but it was still there.Another interesting one is with Whitefish Local 2081 Episode 1 file name 'l2081.zip' There is a derailment with an AI train in the yard at the beginning of the activity. I looked at in the editor, and it appears there is an AI that stops where it did not before with MS ver 1.0, but does with your vers 2.0. The result is another AI rear-ends it. So I thought no problem I deleted the offending AI. All was great till we get to near the end of this activity. After all drop offs the reversing on the Columbia Falls wye, out to the main towards the yard, we have to go through the crossover, then reverse back to the yard lead. To do this we need to pass just by the signal to the yead lead. Well it is red and the dispatcher just will not let us by no matter what. Tried several times to run it, but got the usuall end of activity.This is a great beta, and you have really done a great job with the route, looks great and I really like the proper signals. I do hope you will continue to work out the little problems as they come along. What you have done and hope you continue to do is what MSTS should have been to start with on the Marias Route!!!Thank You for all you hard work so far.Don Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-20-01, 02:41 AM (EST) 27. "RE: 184 Downloads so far" Thanks, Don. I agree, this is about the level of code I would have expected in a shipped product, not what was shipped. Oh well, it has been a challenge.I've since made a couple of changes on my copy around Columbia Falls. I think I've had the wrong type of signal in one or two spots. I know that I got into the same deadly embrace with Ted Curphy's Columbia Falls #1 activity until I changed a couple of signals around. But that's the sort of thing I expect to find since I'm not a signal expert and there are so many combinations of things that they can do and mean. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dcrano (14 posts)
Aug-22-01, 06:36 PM (EST) 28. "RE: 184 Downloads so far" Bobs,Ok have been working with a lot of the add-on activities, and the added signals are a real problem with most. As I noted prior the problem with the Whitefish Local 2081 Episode 1 derailment. This is caused by the added signal from the yard onto the main at the west end of the yard. Also the problems that are encountered with several activities with switching. Where you can not get back to your own train after drop offs or pickups.I am no signal expert by any means, but have begain to wonder if these new signals should even be there??? Looking at the sidings here in my area, CSX territory, they do not signal stub end sidings at all. Looking things over I find there is some logic to it all. As example. When a train enters a block, it is protected on both ends of this block. Now if there is a stub siding for an industry what ever, in this block. It is still protected. First if the block is entered from the point end of the switch on the stub and is set to the siding, this shows as the block is entered. If from the frog end of the switch and the switch is manually set to the siding, the block is Red. Now with a train in the block. As you have it with the siding signaled, the problem is the signal wants to protect the train from it's self. That is the head end and what ever can not get back to the rest of the consist.Now we could ask the dispatcher for permissions to get there. But if the whole route is this way, it would drive the dispatcher crazy..Now of course passing and other double ended sidings are a different story. Here we can have multiple two way traffic and it needs to be protected as well as setup routes.So you might want to think about this a little anyways. I may be all wet here, but just wonder if all the industry or stub sidings really should signaled, as well as yard leads, more then what the route orginaly is.Next little problem is passenger acivities have a problem with the platforms. There is all kinds of service errors with the platforms, not sure what this is all about, could be the changed mile markers, etc. Any way the fix here is simple. Load the act into the act editor, click through all the platform errors, then re-save the act all is well again.Also FWIW; I followed rdamon's lead, and copied USA2 directory to USA2.2. Now have both Marias and Marias V2.0 to work with back and forth. Lets me use the Act editor with either to check why this or that is having a problem. One other thing that should be done to get it all to work properly though. After following rdamon's copy routine. We need to or should so the act editor knows what is going on. Edit each of the .act files copied over so it knows the proper routeID. Edit the;
RouteID ( USA2 ) to RouteID ( USA2.2 )
Otherwise when I use the Act Editor, it wants to load the wrong route and gets a little funny sometimes. Once done, then with both routes availible Marias and Marias V2.0, it makes it real easy to check what works and what does not in the act editor as well as check the routes in the sim.Any way just some food for thought, have a good vaction and enjoy!Don
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bobs (100 posts)
Aug-31-01, 00:32 AM (EST) 47. "Multiple copies of the route" I'm not so sure this works. I tried it, but then couldn't get route editor to save any changes I made to the additional copy. Even worse, the changes are partially made, causing the various files to get out of synch.I'm going to have to experiment a little more with the renaming idea to see if I did something wrong, or if we are missing another pointer to the RouteID. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
blattan (13 posts)
Aug-19-01, 04:19 PM (EST) 21. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Is there a way to install this without overwriting the original route?Bert
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bobs (100 posts)
Aug-19-01, 10:08 PM (EST) 24. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" The only way I can think of is to make a copy of the USA2 route directory, name it something else, edit the route profile in the route editor, and see if it works. If so, you could copy the changes over one copy or the other and still have the original.Frankly, it may be easier to just make a backup, install the changes, and if you don't like it just restore from the backup. That's what I've been doing as I've developed this. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rdamon (6 posts)
Aug-19-01, 11:20 PM (EST) 25. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" I sucessfully copied my USA2 directory to USA2.2 (pretty original) then followed the insturctions with the 2.0 route.The after installing the new route, I renamed all files that were Marias to Marias2 (eg. Marias.mkr to Marias2.mkr). Then in the usa2,trk file I renamed the RouteID, Name and FileName, changing the filename to Marias2.
This seemed to work fine, but I haven't done any extensive testing it is great to see the searchlights.
Great work Bob, Conn and Hank!!!! It is much appreciated!And thanks for the link to the BNSF Signal Aspects in the installation instructions. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dcrano (14 posts)
Aug-26-01, 10:53 PM (EST) 29. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" bobs,Hope you are having a Great vacation, or had one based on this date in time. . Have been playing with your Marias V2.0 while you were gone.Seeing as most Add-On Activities will not work with V2.0 I did some work to find out what the main problems are. First working with 45 of my Activites, then using the Route Editor to fix what problems there are. Here is what I found out so far:First is all added signals comming off a stub or industry siding on to the main, have to be passive or there are problems all over the place. What we commonly have is leaving our train on the main, then taking a cut into the siding. Seems the MSTS AI Dispatcher is not to smart here. We have a signal that wants to protect our own train from the head-end, and will not give us a green or yellow. And the AI Dispatcher seems more often then not to not want to give us permission by the Red back to our own train. So a permissive signal solves the problems nicely. First the odds seem much greater that the Dispatcher will give us permission by, but if he does not, then we just stop and proceed no problem. So we basically need a permissive signal any where a siding or yard enters onto the main. This solves the problem with the de-rail on WF Local Ep1 as well. Appears the AI trains can not reverse path infont of a non-permissive signal, but can with one.Now while talking sidings and yards, another problem that crops up, again for both player and AI services. Where a signal has been added to protect or show aspect into a siding. In other words a signal on the point end of a switch. There needs to be atleast a car length distance from the signal to the trip point of the manual or automatic switch. Again another AI dispatcher issue. We pull out of a siding or yard lead. We have to pull past the switch far enough to either throw it manually, or allow the reverse path to do it for us. If we have to pull the rear beyound a signal, we may not be able to back past the signal. Again the signal and AI Dispatch wants to protect use from our own train. So again here a pemissive signal would do. But better for out on the main, is keep the signal far enough a way to allow the points to be moved with out the car or loco having to pass the signal.There also appears to be so differnces in timing with player and AI trains with the activities. But so far I have not found it to be to bad, and in a lot of cases, the differnce made for better play, where in others it was just a case of not quite working as the author planned it to be. And only a couple cased any real problems, and these were adjusted by my player service.The problem with the Empire Builder loading is interesting. Appears to be an error with refernce to Glacier Park station. I could not figure out at all what is going on. It will load just fine on Marias V1.0, but on yours you always get the error 'AutoTrain with Set Outs (traffic) using Glacier Park' and also 'Service Using Invalid Platform name Glacier Park' Then 'Empire Builder EastBound using invalid platform, both track items are invalid' Any way loading both versions V1.0 and V2.0 into the editor shows that both Glacier Park, and Glacier Park Platform are there and all looks proper from what I can see. Not sure what it is all about, but any ways, simply loading Empire Builder into the Activity Editor, then doing nothing but clicking through the errors, then re-save solves the problems.I had an idea, and went to re-create your V2.0 around the Glacier Park area and see if it still would come up with those errors. Found an intersting thing, just past Glacier towards Shelby are a couple grade crossings, that have them hidden. I figured ok I will just possition them properly and un-hide them. Bad mistake. . As soon as I saved, I got an error message from the Route Editor saying the items 'Levelcrossing at -18539, 14771 has the same ID as another item.' Want to delete this item. I said sure why not I can add another. Boy was I wrong, after I said yes, then all hell broke loose, had to remove car sprawlwers, etc. When all was said an done it need to rebuild the track database. Once all was over and done, no more errors, but no Activity would run on it either.Any way, thought may be some of this would help you out with your V2.0 and getting it more compatible with the V1.0 and exsisting Add-On activities. I have about 45 or so of them, and have tested over half with the above modes and they are working fine. Don
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SR1950 (14 posts)
Aug-27-01, 00:23 AM (EST) 31. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Been reading about the MPR v 2.0 signal "situation" at Columbia Falls (CF) wye, and I had to laugh, guys (and gals)!I created a local switching activity where a 5-car cut is hauled from Whitefish Yard (WF)to just west of the CF yard, just past that leg of the wye. Well, there's a signal there which halts the train with enough track to back into the wye, which I am using to get the train back on the left-hand westbound main in order to do some switching at West Columbia Falls industries. No problem, I thought. OK, so I backs up and - Whoa! A signal behind me! Now what? The Dispatcher must be having a bad day. "Permission denied!" Either way!And to make matters worse, there's an AMTRAK Empire Buider waiting behind for me to get my butt off the main line!Anybody bring any coffee and donuts? Gonna be a looong shift!Duh! Guess I *could* shove those suckers in front all the way from WF!Lew
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Hussar (15 posts)
Aug-27-01, 03:02 AM (EST) 32. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" The revised route works fine for me except for some MSTS activities. Someone said to force a resave but my activities editor refuses to do that ??.
One question...Are the semaphore signals correct for Marias pass ?. I know that further south in Montana the "traffic light" signals are in use. (ref "Tales from the Krug" site).
I did find one instance of left hand side of the road drivers still. Maybe the motorists were drunk !. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hussar (15 posts)
Aug-27-01, 11:16 PM (EST) 33. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Duh !! Brain fade on the above post. I meant Searchlight signals of course. The question remains, are they prototypic for Marias ?. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-28-01, 08:02 PM (EST) 35. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" I don't know. While I would want things in MSTS to be as prototypical as possible, I wasn't able to get my changes to the 3 light signals to work. When the searchlights were made available, I gave up and just used those. I was having problems with the scripts and configs and the error messages are about as useless as any I've ever seen.At various places on the BNSF, both types are prototypical, but I can't say for the Main Line since I've never seen it in person. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dcrano (14 posts)
Aug-28-01, 11:36 PM (EST) 37. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Now here is the way to move freight over Marias.Taking advantage of Marias V2.0, running Whitefish Local Part3. Using the stop and proceed signals on the grade between 1185 and 1172. Notice in the Track Monitor is shows as Signals 'Stop and' Proceed. Not enought room for 'Proceed' but thats OK.Runnin together all the way up at 15 MPH was great.. But I have noticed or may be I am wrong on how they should work. The Signal Head Permissive seem to work fine as shown above and indicate Stop and Proceed. But it seems the double head permissive do not. I tried several way to get them to allow a stop and proceed with test activities and they never show stop and proceed, nor do they allow it. Always gives the old 'End of Activity' about running a Red.So I guess the question is, are the Double Head Permissive supposed to work the same as the Single Head Permissive. Or is there something else that needs to be set. Or are we looking at a script error on the Signal Configs??? At least this explains why I can not get the Red Eagle to White Fish activity to work with V2.0, the one I posted earlier with the head to head stand off at Columbia Falls Wye. Even after changing the Signals to Double Head Permissive at the Wye entrance, that AI just will not enter the Wye and get out of the way. Don Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
JoeDiamond (70 posts)
Aug-29-01, 11:27 AM (EST) 39. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" There is a bug in the script code for the double head permissive signals that caused them to behave like absolute signals. I'll be uploading an update soon that will fix the problem.Conn Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-31-01, 00:35 AM (EST) 48. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" >I had an idea, and went
>to re-create your V2.0 around
>the Glacier Park area and
>see if it still would
>come up with those errors.
>Found an intersting thing, just
>past Glacier towards Shelby are
>a couple grade crossings, that
>have them hidden. I figured
>ok I will just possition
>them properly and un-hide them.
>Bad mistake. . As soon
>as I saved, I got
>an error message from the
>Route Editor saying the items
>'Levelcrossing at -18539, 14771 has
>the same ID as another
>item.' Want to delete this
>item. I said sure why
>not I can add another.
>Boy was I wrong, after
>I said yes, then all
>hell broke loose, had to
>remove car sprawlwers, etc. When
>all was said an done
>it need to rebuild the
>track database. Once all was
>over and done, no more
>errors, but no Activity would
>run on it either. Don, I think this is caused by the renaming of the directory, RouteID, etc. I had similar results after doing the copies then trying to make the changes. Things get all out of synch. See my post above. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dcrano (14 posts)
Aug-31-01, 01:27 AM (EST) 50. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" >Don, I think this is caused
>by the renaming of the
>directory, RouteID, etc. I
>had similar results after doing
>the copies then trying to
>make the changes. Things
>get all out of synch.
> See my post above. Bobs, Yeah that is the problem, found out the hard way.Works fine for running the activities, I have Marias, Manual Marias, and Marias V2.0 all working fine. But the editors are a different story. Appears there is some hard coding in them that goes back to the USA2 folder no matter what. So the re-naming and settings all work just great to run the activities. But cause some real problems when trying to edit either activities and/or routes.BTW have still been working on V2.0, and have it where it will work on all but 1 of the 45 or so activities I have. And to get that one working need the patch to get the Double head permissivies working properly. They are just plain and simple permissive as they are.The two keys are signal as per the proto-type, and leave plenty of room between the signal and the switch points.Don
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davidbeach (64 posts)
Sep-01-01, 11:46 PM (EST) 51. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Have you checked the name of the route in the first few lines of the *.trk file? Thats where the name of the route comes from when trying to run the route or trying to use the route editor. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Sep-02-01, 02:43 AM (EST) 52. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Yes. We changed the RouteID and the filename as well as the description. We also renamed the marias.* files to marias2.*, which is what we put in the filename in the .trk. It starts up and runs just fine, but if you use the route editor and then try to save something, you are toast. Hopefully anyone who tries this saves soon, not after an hour's work! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
TrainFreak (59 posts)
Aug-28-01, 01:52 AM (EST) 34. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" In version 3 I'd like to see the "bridge" signals at Shelby brought back - I think they're more prototypical just there.. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bobs (100 posts)
Aug-28-01, 08:04 PM (EST) 36. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" I agree...also at the other locations where I removed them. The reason I took them out is that there are no gantry mount signals in the searchlight add-on. They plan to do those later, and if so I would probably put the gantrys back. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Hussar (15 posts)
Aug-29-01, 09:39 AM (EST) 38. "RE: Marias Pass Route V 2.0 BETA posted" Thanks for your reply Bobs. I do understand. For what is worth I have been doing a search of all my books/mags on Marias and the info is very sparce. The only pix I could find with signals was back in 1970 and they were gantry 3-colours at Summit !.
I may pluck up courage and ask the "Klugs" gentleman. He would know. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
funnelfan (50 posts)
Aug-29-01, 02:53 PM (EST) 40. "Signal problems.. the other kind" LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-01 AT 02:54 PM (EST)I really hate to sound like I'm "dissin" your work, but there are a number of problems here that make your add-on very un-prototypical. I'm not sure how much you know about CTC signaling, but only major interlockings and the mainline get signals. Every spur and connecting track does not get a signal, only those locations where several trains each day cross from one track to another. Switches in between major interlockings that connect with the mainline are protected and controled by what is called a n electronic switch lock. These locks are a small silver box next to a switch stand that literally lock the switch to the mainline position. Crews wanting to switch off a spur have to call the dispatcher to have that particular switched unlocked so they can use it. Ends of sidings, ends of double track, cross-overs on double track, mainline crossings, moveable bridges and junctions between mainlines all count as major interlockings. Everything else including branchline junctions and spurs only rate a electronic switch lock. All signals at major interlockings are the absolute type. As the MSTS route stands, all the absolute signals are where they should be. But the MSTS route lacks most of the intermediate signals that are spaced along the mainline every 2-3 miles. Every 2-3 miles there should be signals facing each way for each track, and are of the premissive type.Also, searchlight signals can "date" the route. Between the BNSF merger in 1995 and 2000 BNSF did a lot of work on the Marias Pass route, including replacing the original searchlight signals with the hooded tri-light signals, and adding more double track to the route. So you can effectiviely make the route pre-1995 by removing the second track in a few locations and making all the signals searchligh siganls, but the MSTS version represents how things are today.Next up is mileposts. Mileposts should be every mile on the mile, as that is what they mark. You never see them say 1351.8, they will just be m.p.1351. On the other hand, bridges, tunnels and premissive signals all carry signs with their true location that read something like 1492.2. For major locations like cross-overs, towns, yards, junctions, sidings, ect. all have "station signs". These are not in the MSTS game at all. Not all crossing have lights and gates, not even some major ones. There is a road not too far from where I live that has 30-50 train a day across it, and cars cross it about one every minute on a average. It only has crossbucks and a stop sign. Again, the MSTS version 1 was right on for what crossing had what kind of protection.Below is a train coming off of double track onto single track at a place called Athol on BNSF's Funnel. You can see the "station sign" framing the signal for the north track. The signal for the south track is mostly obscured by the third locomotive. For more info on BNSF Funnel and other rail lines in in the Inland Empire, visit my webpage:http://www.icehouse.net/funnelfan/Ted Curphey
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funnelfan (50 posts)
Aug-29-01, 03:09 PM (EST) 41. "forgot to mention" I forgot to mention that I plan to re-grade the whole route and add a few items. Wurger, RobE and I were discussing the problems with make a prototypical train handling on a route where the grades are so out of whack. In realitly grades never exceed 2% on marias pass, but the MSTS version there are grades over 6%!!!! worse than the steepest mainline grades in the entire US!!! I also plan to eliminate many of the too sharp curves on the route. I expect it will take me 2-3 weeks to complete this task. But I'm nearly done on my next activity, beta testing should begin soon.Ted Curphey
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Hussar (15 posts)
Aug-29-01, 11:02 PM (EST) 42. "RE: forgot to mention" Guys
I did contact Mr Klug and he was kind enough to promptly reply. He didnt really know, he said it was years since he worked up there, but did recall Searchlights when the route was first signalled. As most signals are replaced with 3-lights these days there may be pockets of SL's left but unlikely.
He did criticize one aspect of Kujus signalling. The first indication that you have been side tracked into a siding is at the siding switch. He states that is a major signalling NO-NO. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
rdamon (6 posts)
Aug-30-01, 11:54 AM (EST) 43. "RE: forgot to mention" Pentrex made a tape of the Marias Pass in 1991...
<http://store.yahoo.com/pentrex/marias.html>
My wife is already looking for a 12 Step program for MSTS, I think I'd push her over the edge if I started watching trains in the living room.Robert
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bobs (100 posts)
Aug-31-01, 00:38 AM (EST) 49. "RE: forgot to mention" Thanks for asking Al. The signaling problem he mentioned is the main reason I started this whole thing. Oh, what a can of worms I opened up! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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