Signals In Tunnels?

Is there some kind of an issue with regard to putting signals inside of tunnels? I did a search here and found no topic that appeared to discuss the issue.I'm working on version 2 of Rollins Pass/Moffat Tunnel route, and should have a signal inside of the East Portal, but I can set it outside if necessary.Don

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RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, Signalmaster, Feb-08-04, 04:23 PM, (1) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, dwkarch, Feb-08-04, 04:41 PM, (3) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, Sarasota, Feb-08-04, 04:40 PM, (2) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, dwkarch, Feb-08-04, 04:46 PM, (4) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, mivone, Feb-08-04, 08:28 PM, (5) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, dwkarch, Feb-08-04, 09:25 PM, (6) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, rdamurphy, Feb-09-04, 02:06 AM, (7) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, dwkarch, Feb-09-04, 09:57 AM, (8) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, rdamurphy, Feb-09-04, 12:28 PM, (9) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, geoffmayo, Feb-09-04, 01:12 PM, (10) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, geoffmayo, Feb-09-04, 01:17 PM, (11) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, rjdiii, Feb-13-04, 08:51 PM, (12) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, dwkarch, Feb-13-04, 09:38 PM, (13) RE: SIGNALS IN TUNNELS???????, WestSlopeRRfan, Feb-14-04, 01:18 AM, (14)

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Can't remember myself if there's been anything adverse about putting signals in tunnels. Though I can think of several routes that have signals in tunnels. The problem is getting the placement cursor below ground level. Most add tunnels after the terrain has been shaped, the placement cursor will not get to track under the surface.Place the signal marker on track that's at the surface. Then slide the maker along the track into the tunnel to the place it needs to be. You can slide the maker any distance needed as long as you don't meet up with a switch. This works for long viaducts also.Regards,
Hank

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Hank,Thanks. I'll give it a try. That should work quite well. I know I was NOT going select a tunnel track piece to open the terrain when I have signals on the route and would have to save the changes.I may reconsider whether to even put it in the tunnel, as in the prototype. I have 20 meters of track outside before a switch, more than the prototype I guess, but still the prototype has enough. On the other hand, the prototype has a curtain at the portal that only rises a few seconds before the train come out. I guess they put the signal inside so it could be seen in time to matter. So I better do the same, even without a curtain. I'm thinking as I write. Should have started over instead. Thanks again.Don

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Hello,Signal in tunnel, is that what you mine?Best Regards
Dieter

sorry for my bad English

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Hi,Yes, that's what I mean. Looks like it works just fine.Thank you.Don

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To place a signal deep inside a tunnel, I first drop the terrain below the track (temporarily, without saving that change), then place the signal, then raise the terrain again (cancel the terrain change).
Michael Vone
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Yes, I see that that can be done without even selecting a (tunnel) track piece. Mine need not be deep inside, as it does seem clear that it is only inside because of the curtain. Speaking of deep, portions of the Moffat Tunnel are a mile below the surface. I am recalling now how interesting it was going that deep in places and getting the right view angle. I used about 100 track pieces through the tunnel, using your "y" and "`" procedure in your superb guide. I guess I could have just leveled the entire Continental Divide on a temporary basis as you are saying now. Live and learn. I was so green then. Still have some green spots. This is what I came up with:Don

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Actually, because of the risk of asphyxiation, they don't stop trains in the Moffat Tunnel. No reason for there to be a signal in there, the first signal on the East side of the tunnel is at the switch to the passing siding.Rob

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Rob,I realize that stopping in the tunnel would be a dangerous thing to do, and a dreaded thing to have to do. Still, the pictures that I have seen, including a cab ride videotape, show no eastbound signal outside of East Portal. Track charts show one inside but not outside. A UP engineer says that it is inside. The curtain would prevent an outside signal from being seen until seconds before arrival, on a 40 MPH downgrade. A similar situation exists at West Portal, where a signal is placed immediately OUTSIDE of the portal. Immediately outside of East Portal, like the one at West Portal, would still present a danger to passengers, and to crew in older days. I also saw Amtrak enter the East Portal on a yellow signal, which is a bit interesting, in light of the West Portal signal location.If you have a picture showing an eastbound signal just outside of East Portal, I would obviously like to see it.Don

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I believe you're right, Looking at the photos though, it might not be in the actual tunnel, there is an extension through the air blower house and portal itself, maybe they figure that the proximity to the fans would prevent a problem...Rob

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The signal is probably there as a last gasp chance if there is a problem raising the gate. I believe it may also be at ground level because of clearances (lot more space around the wheel level).Is it a replica of the signal outside the tunnel, or is it a repeater that shows a less restrictive aspect than the signal outside? Or maybe it doesn't show anything at all normally (black or red)?Remember that the signal in rear would be something like 6 miles away, so a repeater is mighty useful in those circumstances.Just some rambling thoughts.Geoff M.

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Actually, you're right, so ignore most of what I said . There is no signal outside, so it is in the tunnel.Geoff M.

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Several possibilities here. One, the signal can provide the engineer a reference point to the end of the tunnel, which they cannot see with the curtain closed until it is within range of the headlights. Dead reckoning the exit after six miles of tunnel could be disastorous.Two, it may only be a permissive to remind the engineer whether the divergence will be taken exiting the tunnel for preparation or other warnings such as maintenance right outside the exit.It is likely radios are inoperable inside the tunnel and things can happen in the 10 minutes or so that it take to traverse so it can provide real time warnings.Richard

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I do have a list of signals by location and type as of 8/27/03. For what it's worth, it is an absolute signal.Don

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The BNSF guys actually carry SCBA's on the trains with them. I don't know if the UP guys do. Being exposed to such high levels of NOx, SO2, CO, and CO2 is REALLY bad for you. Especially after six miles. Nick BNSF Conductor Trainee

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