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Reading Topic #11257

Member since Dec-13-03 · 101 posts

LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-04 AT 03:49 PM (EST) by Macster (moderator)

In light of recent events, it has come to my attention, that the general consensus of this community is in disregard of certain elements regarding this community.
What?
Let me try to explain.
This community consists of folks that have a common interest in trains, or why else would we be here?
This sim has given us the opportunity to experience our fantasies, albeit-somewhat buggy; it still has an attraction from folks around the world, and most of them are here, thanks to Nels.
We have route builders, activity creators, 3D-Modelers, and then, there’s those guys/gals that dig into this thing a lot deeper than I’d care to, and come up with some great utilities.
All these folks add to the pleasure of the simming experience. Hell, without them-this sim wouldn’t be where it is today.
“So where’s he going with this?” Well-Let’s see.
Everybody that contributes to this fantasy world has put a lot of effort in trying to overcome the shortcomings of the programming. I salute you!
There are some fine routes out there. There’s some fine buildings, bridges, trees, skinning, re-skinnings, etc:
Who did these things?
Train lovers, like we all are. Everybody (and I emphasize-EVERYBODY) contributes something to this sim, and the community, even if it’s a little non-relevant. After all, relevancy is a state of mind, but I degrees.
Lately, it would seem that route developers no longer find it necessary to give credit to the modelers whose objects they use in their routes. That is unfortunate.
Yes, It does take a lot of work keeping up with all those objects in your routes. In the old days, folks took the extra time. It would appear that time is no longer available to them.
Since the sands of time have run out for developers, I feel it is time to no longer allow my creations to be used by the general public.
I used to enjoy making stuff for people to use. Alas, that enjoyment has fizzled.Respectively,Ed (Hawk) Hawkins

Last night I heard an old freight whistle blow, as I was sleeping warmly in your bed-And it told me "Boy, it's time that you was packin' up to go.", but I smiled and shook the leavin' from my head.

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RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., Tree Frog, Jan-14-04, 05:32 PM, (2) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., jdtrainman, Jan-18-04, 07:40 PM, (37) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., Lone_Gunman_SG, Mar-19-04, 08:37 PM, (45) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., goonybird, Jan-20-04, 04:30 PM, (42) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., Tree Frog, Jan-22-04, 05:31 PM, (44) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., BNSF4999, Jan-14-04, 07:01 PM, (3) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., Hawk, Jan-14-04, 07:46 PM, (4) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., chucksc, Jan-18-04, 08:48 PM, (38) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., goonybird, Jan-20-04, 01:12 PM, (40) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., DRGWK36, Jan-14-04, 07:48 PM, (5) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., BNSF4999, Jan-14-04, 07:59 PM, (6) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., robertreedy, Jan-14-04, 09:20 PM, (8) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., jeff9595, Jan-14-04, 08:34 PM, (7) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., ChiFan, Jan-14-04, 09:40 PM, (10) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., landnrailroader, Jan-14-04, 09:38 PM, (9) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., BNSF4999, Jan-14-04, 09:46 PM, (11) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., Tree Frog, Jan-14-04, 10:49 PM, (12) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., timken, Jan-14-04, 11:13 PM, (13) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., goonybird, Jan-20-04, 02:46 PM, (41) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., calr, Jan-14-04, 11:21 PM, (14) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., JohnCS, Jan-15-04, 00:05 AM, (16) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., Mark_Blum, Jan-15-04, 00:01 AM, (15) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., wacampbell, Jan-15-04, 08:50 AM, (17) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., shawnbecher, Jan-15-04, 10:12 AM, (18) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., rgarber, Jan-15-04, 12:26 PM, (19) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., bray235, Jan-21-04, 11:21 AM, (43) An Idea, IcyFire, Jan-15-04, 12:36 PM, (20) RE: An Idea, shawnbecher, Jan-15-04, 12:41 PM, (21) RE: An Idea, Mark_Blum, Jan-17-04, 12:27 PM, (34) Ed, please reconsider, Tree Frog, Jan-15-04, 02:07 PM, (22) RE: Ed, please reconsider, shawnbecher, Jan-15-04, 02:33 PM, (23) RE: Ed, please reconsider, calr, Jan-15-04, 03:06 PM, (24) RE: Ed, please reconsider, shawnbecher, Jan-15-04, 03:18 PM, (25) RE: Ed, please reconsider, calr, Jan-15-04, 04:30 PM, (26) RE: Ed, please reconsider, Hawk, Jan-15-04, 04:37 PM, (27) RE: Ed, please reconsider, DRGWK36, Jan-16-04, 08:36 AM, (29) RE: Ed, please reconsider, Hawk, Jan-16-04, 06:39 PM, (30) RE: Ed, please reconsider, CGW409, Jan-16-04, 06:50 PM, (31) RE: Ed, please reconsider, muskokaandtahoe, Jan-17-04, 11:33 AM, (33) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., briwdou, Jan-15-04, 04:47 PM, (28) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., Hobart, Jan-16-04, 11:32 PM, (32) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., CGW409, Jan-17-04, 01:37 PM, (35) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., edwardk, Jan-17-04, 02:30 PM, (36) RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers., 7andY, Jan-20-04, 05:58 AM, (39)

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Member since Jun-26-02 · 846 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

I am a university professor. We consider use of another person's work without giving them credit to be a form of "Academic Dishonesty".
The lightest penalty is an "F" in the course and the strongest would be permanent expulsion.Because of this background, I agree with and support Ed 100%. In my opinion, not acknowledging the work of others borders on dishonesty because it implies that it is your work.The following is the acknowledgments section from the Sea View 4 readme. I went to a lot of trouble to keep track of each persons efforts because they deserve it and earned it. Bill Burnett

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
Sea View 4 is a community effort. It could not have been built without the help of many people who created custom objects, provided suggestions and advice, helped solve problems, and tested the route. There were so many people contributing that someone may have been inadvertently omitted from these acknowledgments. If I forgot someone, please accept my sincere apology.Animations bring a route to life. Sea View 4 is highly animated. Volker Bollig is the creator of the great majority of the complex animations. Thanks Volker!Water is the most important feature of Sea View since it dominates the scenery. I am honored that Sea View 4 showcases the beautiful water created by Jeff Bush. Jeff, an expert on environments, has incorporated features never before seen in MSTS water. As you drive through Sea View, enjoy the water's realistic sparkle, beautiful color, and even the moving reflection of the clouds above. Those clouds are in a colorful tropical sky, also created by Jeff. Thanks Jeff!
Sincere thanks go to all of the following contributors:
Those who created custom objects, sounds, terrain textures, or environment specifically for Sea View are Peggy Belgard, Troy Belgard, Volker Bollig, Jeff Bush, George Fair, Ed Hawkins, Kurt Kraminer, Marc Nelson, Ron Spalding, John Tackett, Alexander Tobey, Jim Ward, Harold West, and Chuck Zeiler.
Matt Alden-Farrow for beta testing Sea View 4.
AlfaNetRR for the ANRR Streckengebaude #118, Streckengebaude #124, Seward Alaska station, and ore freighter.Anonymous for the midwest style house.Mike Apsey for beta testing Sea View 3, for his advice, and for his ficus tree, little palm tree, and object modifications including Jason Webb's pine tree.William A. Barbur, Jr. for his small freight depot.Peggy Belgard for beta testing Sea View 3 and for the undersea domed city idea and many, many other valuable suggestions. Peggy made a large number of custom objects for Sea View. Fish of many kinds, starfish, sea horses, octopuses, sea turtles, shark, beluga whale, porpoise, seaweed, fish schools, fish groups, penguin, sea plants, coral, sea shells, crabs, tropical flowers, SV tropical plant, undersea backdrop, irises, cattails, tropical plant, running man, surfboard, surfers, beach towels, beach ball, beach umbrella, lifeguard stand, baseball field, baseball benches, football fields, camels, bears, cage, coconut sign, art display, art display sign, mist panels, and undersea water panels. Peggy did extensive work designing and testing undersea tubes and domes. Neither the under sea area or Cloaked Island could have been built without her creations. Troy Belgard for his submarine and football goalpost.Ranier Bluhm for his Glass palace.Gary Boardley for the 3 bay coal mine.Volker Bollig for his Sea View Space Agency idea, SVSA logo, animated windmill, animated SVSA launch facility and animated SVSA rocket, animated dolphin, animated racing sailboats, animated F-104 Starfighter, animated aerobatic airplane, animated amphitheater cinema, animated UFO, animated paraglider 1 and 2, animated Sea View monorails, animated Sea View advertising blimp, Saxonia on base, animated SVSA helicopter, animated roller coaster, animated man, animated Orca whale, animated tiger shark fins, animated Dihydrogen monoxide Inc. submarine, and large animated billboard.Andrew Bootles for his John Deere tractor.Bruce Bridges for his modern highway bridges.Neville Brook for beta testing Sea View 3 and for providing help and advice through his emails.Don Brynelsen for his picnic shelter and assayer office.Thijs Burgmeijer for his vending machines.Jeff Bush for writing readme files, proofreading, beta testing Sea View 3 and 4 and for the wisdom in his countless emails in which he provided advice, help, and encouragement. Jeff's beautiful water is seen throughout Sea View 4, as is his tropical sky. He also produced the "Quiet Rain" and "Cosmic Tumult" weather options. Jeff supplied the arctic wind wav file.Bill Bzak for his North American refinery pack.Wayne Campbell for his 1920's houses.Frank Caruso for his Mediterranean vegetation.Bjorn Centergran for his North Fork Bridge.John Chambers for his trucks and crane.Philippe Crogiez for his animated cube.Peter Denekamp for beta testing Sea View 4 and for his wonderful Dutch version of Sea View (http://www.dutch-seaview.nl/).Paul DeVerter for his Hendrick's Farm flag stop and Martin's Farm flag stop.Brian W. Dougherty for his trash dumpster.George Fair for his Mango Man Fruit Company reefer, SVSA boxcar, and Desdemona blimp.Rich Garber for his general store, shanty, old home #1, old home #2, old home #4, small country stores #1-#7, woodshed, Ohio distribution building #1, Ohio distribution building #2, and for his helpful suggestions, advice, and encouragement.Alan Garrett for his paper mill, cement plant, cold storage warehouse, and power plant.Okrasa Ghia for the lighthouse, wood barrels, oil drums, Emma the dinosaur.Bruce Giroux for his construction equipment.Van Go for his "pretty good tunnel track texture."Aaron Gold for beta testing of Sea View 2 and suggestions on adding sidings.Jim Grogan for his row of buildings.Rick Grout Animated tower crane.Bill Hall (England) for beta testing Sea View 3. Bill has shared his wisdom and advice with me since before my route building days.Ed Hawkins for his extension ladder, 10' step ladder, igloos, double wood bridge, 4x6 steel beam, custom dome fitting, covered bridge, round house, animated SVSA launch facility, SVSA hanger, Hawk complex shed, Igloo Island name. Ed also beta tested Sea View 2, 3, and 4, helped write the "Legend of Sniper", provided many suggestions, help, and encouragement through extensive phone and email discussions.Jimi Hansen for his Dronning Mergrethe II ferry and DFDS Dana Sirena.Alan Heath for the rusty train wheels.Jim Jendro for the1930's trucks and cars, billboards, US flagpole. Ian Jenkins for the bin, green bus, IJ trees, VW camper, tent, Caravan, and workmen.Lawrence Kellie made a major contribution to the development of my route building skills by teaching me his bridge alignment system. Darren Kent for his sand-2.ace terrain textureGergely Kosa for his suggestions and encouragement in building a desert island.Jake Kulik for his helicopters.Tim Kent for the Southern Railway boxcar.David Klemm for his culvert, road signs, propane tank, hay, and water tower.Hagen Knop for his train shed door.Kurt Kraminer for beta testing Sea View 4 and for his undersea.ace terrain texture, dog sled, animated 747-100 shuttle transporter, animated 747-100 transporter with space shuttle, his idea of using the names "Port Iguana" and "Iguana Isle", his arctic wind idea for Igloo Island, and for his work making and testing undersea tunnels.Rick Lamp for his Agnew Depot.Sean Lim for his UK modern office (version 2), UK modern glass and steel building, and UK trawler.Lars Ljungberg for his Swedish platforms.Pat Malicki for the steel I-beams, large sculpture, pleasure boat, tex58.ace terrain texture, and for his water texture incorporated by Jeff Bush into the Sea View water.Robert C. Mapplebeck for his residential homes.Simon Martin for his Crème Wave Distribution Center.Brad Miles for his H&B Oil Company, storage tanks, and playground equipment.John Milligan for his commercial backdrops, building groups, docklands backdrops, and distant mountain backdrop.Ian Morgan for his modern retail park, Total petrol station & shop, BMW mini, Land Rover Discovery, Peugeot 205, Range Rover and snack bar trailer, VW Golf, BMW 525, cable drums, and dump truck.Daniel Mrawek for his Rheinship Rhenus (a boat).MSTrainstop.com for their airplane.Tim Muir for the Sumpter Oregon Depot (with Steve Thompson).Barry Munro (Capt. Bazza) for his beautiful schooner Strathcona, wooden wharf, cottages, flax bushes, cabbage trees, bullrush, treefern, toetoe, MV Bolnes, Royal Windermere Yacht Club 20 foot sailing boat, and UK SD14 mixed container cargo vessel.Frank Musiack for his Lehigh Valley Railroad tugboat "Wilkes Barre" and Mount Union Depot (with David Wise).Marc Nelson for the excellent undersea tubes, dome, and dome door which enabled building of the undersea area.Peter Nijmegen for beta testing Sea View 4, for his wolves, flying jet, and helicopter sound sources, and for his wonderful Dutch version of Sea View (http://www.dutch-seaview.nl/).Alfred Ogris for his Bahnhof station, old German shed 1, old German shed 3.Ron Paludan for the station signs, Essex Depot, Flagstop Station, vintage billboards, flat people 1, flat people 2, glass skyscraper, and ghost town buildings.John Pawlak for his old cottage.Henk Peetersson for the wildflower forest regions.Ron Picardi for his old barns, New Zealand lattice bridge, chain link fence kit, and (with Jerry Sullivan) the steel viaduct kit.Foster L. Putman for his 2-axle dump truck.Cal Rasmussen for his 274 ft flat barge, road construction objects, airport, control tower, hanger, and extensive advice and for beta testing Sea View 3 and 4.Uncle Red for his Liberty Wheel, Polyp, Enterprise, Red Alert (The Launch), Stargate, Euromast, and Leids University Medical Center.Repairman for the dump trucks, large diggers, 3-axle trailers, and sports cabins.Ray Reyes for the wooden trestle set.Michele Sacco Land Rover Defender 90 Carabinieri.Teemu Saukkonen ("Enocell") for his Monster Truck Madness vehicles, ship, storage tanks, and piers.Joerg Seiler for his rural British Columbia station.Chris Sharp for the 50 ton crane and flat trailer in blue with crane bits.Bo Sibbmark for his mini golf.Mike Simpson for his extensive help with the installer and for his indispensable Route-Riter program. Sea View 4 was prepared for uploading with Route-Riter version 4.2.14. The size of both the download file and the final installed route were significantly reduced by his software. Jur Snijder for his Southwold Railway goods shed, Willie Lott's cottage, and Southwold lighthouse.Ron Spalding for his animated red, white, and blue blimp, animated Ferris wheel, desert plants, boulders, and sand (AWE-sand7.ace).Torben Speigler for testing Sea View 4 installation procedures.Yuri Sos for his help with the installer.Judd Spittler for his conifer texture replacement.Gary Sprandel for his 1950's houses.Bob Staples for his blue house, white house, and red warehouse.Rob T. for his large shopping mall.John Tackett for beta testing Sea View 2 and 3, and for his trading post, reptile ranch, fireworks shack, "See Sky City" barn, Stuckeys, Krystal, Krispy Kreme, Waffle House, 40' and 48' containers, In_n_Out Burger, KFC "Big Chicken", modification of Volker M. Bollig's animated billboard, Donut King, Sea View Diner, and diner sign.Dickey Tarkington for his railroad houses, feed store, trackside shack, Victorian house, wood farm house, flat people 1 repaint, Victorian people, wildflower terrain transfer, red geraniums, rose garden, tulip bed, sunflowers, willow tree, vegetable garden, yard fauna, and bougainvillea plants.Steve Thompson for his toltec rock terrain texture, bluewaterfall.ace, mountain stream sound source, seagull sound source, winter snow fir, icicles, Sumpter Oregon depot (with Tim Muir), beach-small-waves sound source, pine log, weathered log, and ponderosa pine.Terry Thornton for the low detail backdrops, cats, chickens, coypu, ducks, floating plants, pheasant, pig, rabbit, sea gulls, sheep, border collie, horses, soaring buzzard, soaring herring gull, soaring red kite, swans, men, women, Kate, and water plants.Alexander Tobey for the Nova 4 satellite, Nova 5 satellite, Atlantic IV rocket, Neptune XII rocket, SVSA vehicle assembly building, launch pad with rocket, and SVSA crawler.Hans Tol for the four sailboats, glass front office (kantoorgebouw olilly), track crane, warehouse with loading dock, container crane, barges, container ships, vacuum, and his plants.Teemu Vehkaoja for his Prairie Creek Depot, 80 meter radio mast, and small town movie theatre.Michael Vone for advice and also help with a traffic jam problem. Many object placements that could not have been as precisely oriented without Michael's wonderful Object Rotator.Paul Voxland for the photorealistic pine, birch, and poplar trees.John Wallwork for his station flower box and station hanging basket..Jim Ward for custom terrain textures, weeds, dead trees, rusty rails track texture, shrinking the size of many object files, and extensive assistance, encouragement, and advice.Jason Webb deserves special thanks for the two palm trees and palmetto. They really helped develop the "tropical island" character of Sea View. His pine tree is also appreciated.Harold West for his ski boats in water, ski boats on trailer, docks, and animated snowmen. Patrick Wise for the lumber stacks, Mount Union Depot (with Frank Musick), and Royal palm tree.Joachim Zander for his Felsberg Station.Chuck Zeiler for beta testing Sea View 2 and 4, his advice on sounds in the route, modified crossing.sms file, frog croak sound source, children playing sound source, underwater sound source, calliope sound source, electric arc sound source, arctic wind sms file, jet engine sound source, cow sound source, jungle bird sound source, his suggestion of a hidden area, his suggestion for reworking the track in Port Pelican, his solution to a traffic jam problem, and many other significant contributions.

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Charter Member · 1970 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

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Thus one of the reasons i am not a route designer.The other, is that i have alot of trouble with it. (No, dont try to help me.)All i am is a reskinner. However, i havent really achieved that title, since nothing of mine has been released. (nor do i have the foggiest of where to begin...)But there IS incentive...T.R.Y. has been working hard on certain things...
<ambient voices whisper "two-tone..">------------------------------------------------------------"Don't look at the trombones. It only encourages them." -Strauss

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Charter Member · 270 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

No offense, but FYI I myself wouldn't be inclined to pour over your lengthy acknowledgments. How about formatting all your acknowledgments into a table (I know, a table seems less grateful/personal)?Cheers,
goonybirdhttp://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Bayou/4804/ a fictitious network serving London, Weymouth, and points in between

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Member since Jun-26-02 · 846 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

Hi Goonybird,LOL! Of course you are correct. Long lists of acknowledgements are sort of like the long list of credits that scroll down the screen at the end of a movie. People rarely read them, but they are important anyway because it is the right thing to do and occasionally someone needs the information.Your suggestion of a table might work, but I'm not sure any more people would read it.Bill Burnett

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Member since Aug-21-02 · 392 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

like was said, sorry you feel this way, but as kevarc said someone will replace you....
i knwo for one m Illinois Northern route has a bazillion custom objects....while i dont list every person, i put a general "thanks" section in the readme. this way i dont take credit for the objects, if the guy who did them sees them, he knows im grateful.
Listing over 200 names which i would have to do, is, as you said, way too time consuming.Kevin V.
-President/CEO of Illinois Northern Ry Inc, subsidiary of The Midwest Regional Railways Corp.

Ohio Southern is on the way...coming late March!!

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Member since Dec-13-03 · 101 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

Kevin-
How much time would it take to build the objects yourself?

Last night I heard an old freight whistle blow, as I was sleeping warmly in your bed-And it told me "Boy, it's time that you was packin' up to go.", but I smiled and shook the leavin' from my head.

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Charter Member · 4538 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

>like was said, sorry you feel this way, but as kevarc said
>someone will replace you....
>i knwo for one m Illinois Northern route has a bazillion
>custom objects....while i dont list every person, i put a
>general "thanks" section in the readme. this way i dont
>take credit for the objects, if the guy who did them sees
>them, he knows im grateful.
>Listing over 200 names which i would have to do, is, as you
>said, way too time consuming. Kevin maybe it's different for you guys over here in the civil engineering department....
But, if you had ever used any of our stuff without proper permission and attribution there is a chance there might be a small war...
And knowing my good friend Mr. Garber and some of the other route developers as I do, I gotta believe the same rules apply over here.....The thought occurs to me that if I was a route developer I would now be going over the Illinois Northern or South Western or whatever its called this week! with a fine toothed comb....A blanket "shout out to all you all out there whose $hit I $tole" is usually not considered proper attribution as I understand it....Just a thought!Chuck Schneider

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Charter Member · 270 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-04 AT 01:14 PM (EST)

>Listing over 200 names which i would have to do, is, as you
>said, way too time consuming.No offense, but your above-quoted comment is a thoughtless remark to make. The amount of time spent maintaining some index/list that documents all the authors and their objects you're using is way less than the amount of time you'd have spent creating the odd 200 either yourself or with a team.The trick for everybody is to organize ourselves. You can expand your index/log/table at the same rate that you go about importing the objects into your route. It friggin' well takes just under one minute's worth of time every time you import/use an object! (For some reason, I've a hunch that maintaining the file-ID file that came with a corresponding downloaded object would be most useful at some point in the future.)Cheers,
goonybirdhttp://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Bayou/4804/ a fictitious network serving London, Weymouth, and points in between

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Charter Member · 900 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

Pretty broad brush you're painting with - "route developers" don't all behave the same, just as people named "Ed" don't all behave the same. It's your choice to withhold your creations from the world. While I haven't used any of your stuff in my routes, I have made the effort to credit the people who have created the items I've used and haven't made myself. Most other route developers do the same. Most of us understand the routes we create would not be what they are without the efforts of other content creators. It's sad to see someone feel they can no longer play, but again, that's a personal choice. What's really sad is not that you're taking your ball and going home, but that you've drawn some erroneous conclusions about route developers because you haven't spent the time to see if this does apply to all developers. If you're going to gripe about people being too inconsiderate to take the time to do something right, you'd better make sure you're not one of them.I'm sorry to see this has been anchored - I don't see that the problem is that pervasive to warrant such a move. Andy

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Member since Aug-21-02 · 392 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

Hawk-It would take hours on end, but if several people did it, then probably not too long which is kind of what has happened here, several people did it. Sorry if how myself and several others do things displeases you, but time is at a premium...I would think if I created an object and someone used it in theur route, well thatd be a huge thanks that it was good enough to be used...Im sure others feel the same way.
I do still say thanks to everyone and take no credit for the objects at all, but it would simply be too tedious to keep track of everything.
Im not saying building isnt time consuming because as a route builder i know it is! Just our way of coping with this problem.sorry you disagree.
Kevin V.
-President/CEO of Illinois Northern Ry Inc, subsidiary of The Midwest Regional Railways Corp.

Ohio Southern is on the way...coming late March!!

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Charter Member · 1145 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

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If "time is at a premium" and "it would simply be too tedious to keep track of everything" then why is a person 'wasting their time' on such an inconsequential unimportant thing like route-building. I guess maybe the desire to give credit where (and to whom) credit is due comes from a 'moral' fiber that seems to be lacking these days. It's a shame to see it go! RobertR .. ADF-M&RM at http://www.adfrr.com

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Charter Member · 275 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

Guess I'd have to say that I'm with Ed and Bill on this one. "Way too time consuming." To keep track of the other folks whose work you've used? I sure don't get that. I can say from direct experience that Bill is a very busy guy with his "other" life; it obviously wasn't too time consuming for him!You use someone's work, you credit them. Seems pretty fair to me. You do everything yourself, then you're off the hook. As Ed says, how about it?Jeff

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Member since Jul-19-03 · 26 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

I suspect that the libraries are as large as they are in part because of the protocol that seems to have worked best. I thought it was a given - if you use somebody's creation in a route for re-distribution, then treat their contribution with respect and give them appropriate individual credit.Failure to give credit and/or treating the subject lightly will do more to hurt the growth of the libraries than help. Ed may be seeing a trend that prompted his posting. Based upon some of the sentiments I'm seeing about this topic, I agree. That, as he said, is unfortunate.Chuck Rickert

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Charter Member · 1259 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

I completely agree with the need to at least "footnote" those whose add-ons make it possible to release new routes.As it happens, I am in the process of preparing the RMD-2 for distribuation - though it might go out this week, but some pressing stuff at church has delayed it perhaps another week. Tonight I was finishing up the "load.ace" file, and on it I have listed under "credits" 24 persons, and under "technical credits" 2 Historical Societies (Milwaukee Road & NOrther Pacific) and the authors of a very nice book on the Butte Shortline, from which I was able to discern the layout of the 3 trestles on Homestake and other stuff. They are all important, but there is absolutely no way that I could do this stuff without the Internet friendship of Ron Picardi, who got me going on making bridges, Tim Muir who graciously sent me the TSM files for gantries, so I could adjust them, particularly in the yards, John Stanford, without whose "DEMEX" we would all be in a world of hurt, and James Jendro for his jumping around item that saves me an awful lot of time.I am not as good a book-keeper as some, but I expect to list all of the persons in the README including those on the load.ace file.As an example, I attach a scrunched load page.J. H. Sullivan

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Member since Aug-21-02 · 392 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

alright guys...another reason why i dotn keep track is because i download any and everything that I may use and then load it into the route...some I use some i dont. so yeah keeping all those zips around finding what i use and what i dont takes up to much memory space as well.Kevin V.
-President/CEO of Illinois Northern Ry Inc, subsidiary of The Midwest Regional Railways Corp.

Ohio Southern is on the way...coming late March!!

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Member since Jun-26-02 · 846 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

Kevin,No need to keep old zips. I keep a small notebook by my computer with a list of objects added to my ref file. Each time I put a new object in the ref file, I take 30 seconds to add that object to the list including who made the object. Then, when I place a new object with the Route Editor, I simply find that object on the list and put a check mark by it. It is then simple to list all checked objects and the person who made it in the readme.If you believe people deserve credit for their work, it is easy to acknowledge them.Bill Burnett

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Charter Member · 1033 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

And a very smart way of doing it! I had all the things I used for the SVRy, listed in a readme file that I kept adding to, it was right on the desktop where it was handy. So handy, that in doing backups, I forgot all about it. I had a total hard drive failure, the kind where the head contacts the disk and destroys it noisily. So, now I had the objects in the route, no readme's to refer to, and the zillion ref files to go through to find the names that went with the .s files, so I could look them up in the file library. Worse yet, some objects I had permission to reskin, and rename the .s files.I won't swear that I've got it all straight, but I've sure tried to give everyone credit! I certainly couldn't have done this route without all those other's creations! In many respects, the whole trainsim community deserves the credit, I'd have never had the nerve to try the RE without all I've learned here.Anyway, I think that credits are really important.

Steve T.

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Charter Member · 3584 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

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Let's try to look at things differently. If you were a photographer and you published a photograph with a copyright on it and someone else used your photograph without permission, you'd be in court suing his a$$ off.Ok most everything here is freeware but the principal is the same. Although permission has been granted in the readme for unrestricted use of the object it is still the correct thing to do to acknowledge the creator of the object in your readme.Everyone has a different way of keeping track. I have a folder called "addons" in my routes folder. This folder contains a sub-folder for each modeler whose object(s) I have used. When I install an object, I put a copy of the readme file in the modeler's folder. If there are more than one object by the same person, I rename the readme to the name of the object.I have about 70 folders with modelers names. It took less than 20 minutes to copy the names into my readme file and list the type of objects used. (e.g. vehicle, boat, building, etc).After two years of working on my route, 20 minutes was absolutely trivial.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
(My email is in my profile)Columbia Gorge Route (Phase 1-- Finished, Beta CDs in mail)

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Charter Member · 795 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

Plain simple fact of the matter is:If you distribute another individual's copyrighted work and fail to comply with the individual's instructions on that distribution - then that is copyright infrigement and is a violation of federal law.By doing so one is effectively representing the material as their own work. In literary circles its refered to as plageurism, as well as theft, and has led to the demise of many a career. In the corporate world it is theft of intellectual property and can result in multi-million dollar lawsuits.A failure to keep track, or a blatant act of laziness on the part of the route author is no excuse. Period.
JohnCS

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Charter Member · 433 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

I agree with Hawk's point of view. If there is blatant disregard for the wishes of contributors to the library, why should I post my route to this forum. Some of you don't care, sure. But some people would be disappointed. What if Nels agrees, takes a strong position like Hawk, and closes the library. I doubt that he would, but maybe he could. Maybe a lawyer comes along and suggests that he might have a huge liability as a facilitator of copyright infringement. The internet is still exploring these issues.I don't care if people use objects I create and upload, and I will grant that permission when, and if I upload here. BUT, there are objects in my route created by other people. Some of them have placed restrictions upon distribution of their creations. If I pass those objects along in my route, the recipient of my route should also respect those restrictions.I agree that when someone uses an uploaded object it is a compliment to the creator. That does not relieve the user of responsibility to adhere to the copyright restriction.If you review the notice from our file library regarding copyright, I think you'll agree with the intent. We agree to these terms when we download something.No, it's not enforcable - not directly. But indirectly, it can be enforced. There is a growing list of people who've left the forum and don't upload, and that is a consequence most of us don't want.I think the loss of every contributor to the forum diminishes it's value. Sure, route builders, object creators, reskinners and activitiy developers can be replaced if they leave. That's not really good for the trainsim community, though, especially those left behind, and it has consequences for the entire hobby - payware creators included.I'm glad this post was anchored. I think it's important that we abide by the rules of the forum to keep it up and working the way it was intended.Peace Mark
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Member since Jun-30-02 · 242 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

I have several objects in the library and have seen them used in routes, sometimes with acknowledgement, and more often without. I must admit that I very much appreciate receiving specific meantion in the readme by a route author. I know that it takes considerable effort to track the source of all the objects in a route. The fact that a route builder is willing to share the credit for a project shows to me that they value and respect my contribution. When this doesn't happen, I can't get too disturbed by it. Its just a hobby and I know that there are people out there at different points in their life. It takes maturity and the rich experiences of life to instill the importance of generosity, respect and sharing. Wayne

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Charter Member · 480 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

How unfortunate! I don't believe that I have any of your items in my route-in-development, but I will have to check my objects folder that I created specifically for the custom items I've downloaded for my route. I keep all my custom items in that folder specifically for the purpose of keeping track (intially for permission to use their object) of whom I need to give credit to.Bottom line is, just give credit where credit is due.And for the person who can't recall his custom objects because he has so many - time to start better record-keeping.Shawn

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Charter Member · 2576 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

Just becoming aware of this problem I want to commend Ed for taking a stand and expressing what needs to be said especially when his words were met with ridicule and harshness. I applaud Macster's excellent judgement in anchoring this thread. This is not a subject to be taken lightly. It never has and it never should be.When a route is made, it mostly is a team effort. Like Bill's post demonstrates, clearly a route is a sum of many peoples effort. The best example of going solo is creating a payware route. It's much harder for many reasons. Not having a bagfull of goodies to choose from makes payware route building a very difficult task.It has always been tough for route designers. With no manual to go by, Mike Vone wrote one. With no easy installation to be had, Mike Simpson made it easier. Hand carving is fraught with peril, JohnCS, Deanville, Dave Charles, Lawrence Kellie, Zorac (or something like that), made it a piece of cake by giving us DEM utilities. When the mysterious needed de-mystifying, Jim Ward and Jim Stephens made that so. And modelers help us to fill those massive empty voids of green with something. Without them we'd have dull lifeless default objects in every route. The point is there are enough people trying to help us make better routes and make it easier why does this crediting still have to be so difficult? Maybe it doesn't and maybe it's time we did something about it.So, let me suggest this. It can be made simpler and maybe here's how, (in other words, Mike Simpson, please lend an ear). Route Riter already reads the world tiles therefore it can read what objects are used creating a database as such. Then, it could throw out the default objects and list the remaining objects. If it could also cross reference a database of objects and authors that would make this whole subject of crediting a nemesys of the past. This database of authors and objects should be external so the data could be updated as new objects are made. The end result would be a text file of used objects with the author's name.Dawg gone if this isn't a great idea! Rich Garber

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Member since Apr-4-03 · 116 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

>>cross reference a database of objects and authors <<Correct me if I have missed something, other then rolling stock, every object has to be inserted to the "tsection.ref" (or some .ref file).a) you have to take the time to add something to that .ref file, how hard is it to remember to copy/save/append the readme.txt to your route's readme, cleanup can take place, or not, later.b) if a program like Route Riter can be written to pack routes for distribution, why can't a program be written to unpack objects, add them to the appropriate .ref file, AND copy/save/append the readme.txt to a route readme.txt?I know, that would be too easy and simple, and no one would use it.Just a thought.Bill

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Charter Member · 3205 posts

An Idea

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Gentlemen.. Here's a concept:How about every scenery modeler start including as Credit-(insertobjectname).TXT for there items? that way, A route developer only has to drag and drop those into a collective credits folder, and boom! insta-credit! good? bad?Shawn K,
Repainter & Ad designer, only the Screenshot Forum Mod. E-Mail is in profile.
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The NYO&W.. Running from somewhere to nowhere, But never forgotten

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Charter Member · 480 posts

RE: An Idea

I know I'm going to have to make at least one or two custom objects for my route. I'll make sure I put a credit text file in the zip when I upload them to the file library. I think its a great idea.Shawn

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Charter Member · 433 posts

RE: An Idea

Shawn:Good idea. How about Nels REQUIRE IT for uploads - wouldn't that solve the problem. Not sure it would be managable, though.Mark

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Member since Jun-26-02 · 846 posts

Ed, please reconsider

Hi Ed,You were obvioulsly acting out of principle because it was not even you objects that were used without acknowledgment. I would ask that you reconsider pulling your creations from the file library. As you can see from the responses, all but a couple of people agree with the point you made. You have raised the awareness of this issue in route building community. The rest of us shouldn't be penalized by the few who don't think it is important or who are not willing to go to the trouble to show appreciation for the efforts of others.Bill Burnett

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Charter Member · 480 posts

RE: Ed, please reconsider

I know it would be a pain for Nels, but maybe if the route doesn't contain a text file of some sort that has credits in it, it shouldn't be posted to the FL until credits have been given.......even a route using all default objects should have credits - to Microsoft and KUJU for the default objects, the (albeit buggy) programming, and anyone using DEMEX or any other terraforming tool should give credit to the development team of the program. There isn't any reason that a route shouldn't have any credits - even payware routes.Shawn

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Charter Member · 3584 posts

RE: Ed, please reconsider

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In my Columbia Gorge route, I considered whether or not to credit (discredit!) MS/Kuju. Since the only content MS allows to be distributed is track and roads, most route builders remove the MS content just prior to distribution and include a batch file that enables the end user to copy the desired MS content from default routes already installed on his/her PC. In light of the above procedure, I don't feel it is necessary to credit MS/Kuju.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
(My email is in my profile)Columbia Gorge Route (Phase 1-- Finished, Beta CDs in mail)

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Charter Member · 480 posts

RE: Ed, please reconsider

Let me play devils advocate here - and please try to stay with me because this is way out in left field. If we don't have to credit MS/KUJU for anything (other than track and roads) because we are not re-distributing it, then couldn't one remove all objects from their route and write a batch file to copy them all back in. Then put in the readme file all of the objects that will need to be downloaded from the file library and installed to such-and-such directory in order to avoid having to give any credits for their route.I guess my point here is just because we aren't re-distributing it doesn't mean we don't have to give credit. Whether or not it was included in the zip files, we are still using it. Therefore I believe that credit still needs to be given.Shawn

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Charter Member · 3584 posts

RE: Ed, please reconsider

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Interesting point. I don't know the answer.Cal Rasmussen
Beaverton, OR
(My email is in my profile)Columbia Gorge Route (Phase 1-- Finished, Beta CDs in mail)

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Member since Dec-13-03 · 101 posts

RE: Ed, please reconsider

After reading over the various posts in this thread, it would seem the awareness of this matter has been brought to light. That was my main goal.
Reading Andy's post, I feel I have made a grave error. The following line from my post:"Lately, it would seem that route developers no longer find it necessary to give credit to the modelers whose objects they use in their routes."should have read Lately, it would seem that SOME route developers no longer find it necessary to give credit to the modelers whose objects they use in their routes. I humbly apologize for my negligence of this omission.To thank everybody (well, almost everybody) for their support would be a bit redundant. We should all thank each other for support on this issue, since it basically involves everyone in the community, whether you agree, or not.As to uploading my files back to the library, I don't see that happening, but Bill-you know I'll still build stuff for you if you decide to tackle Sea View 5.Respectfully,
Ed (Hawk) Hawkins

Last night I heard an old freight whistle blow, as I was sleeping warmly in your bed-And it told me "Boy, it's time that you was packin' up to go.", but I smiled and shook the leavin' from my head.

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Charter Member · 900 posts

RE: Ed, please reconsider

Thanks, Ed. I'm not going to consider that an apology to me personally (your original comment wasn't taken that way), but to the majority of route builders who do include credits.I agree with your fundamental point - credit needs to be given where due. And Cal makes an excellent point - the time required to do what's right is miniscule compared to the time required to build a route.I don't entirely agree with your response, but nobody's named me emperor for life, so it's not for me to say what you should do. From my perspective, unless money's involved, it's merely a matter of pride, and to me, that's not a reason to punish everyone because of the laziness and disrespect of a few people. If money's involved, hire a lawyer. Andy

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Member since Dec-13-03 · 101 posts

RE: Ed, please reconsider

'taint money, 'taint pride. 'Tis principle. BTW! "I'm not going to consider that an apology to me personally (your original comment wasn't taken that way), but to the majority of route builders who do include credits."You got it! Thank you!

Last night I heard an old freight whistle blow, as I was sleeping warmly in your bed-And it told me "Boy, it's time that you was packin' up to go.", but I smiled and shook the leavin' from my head.

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Charter Member · 1587 posts

RE: Ed, please reconsider

Ed
I understand where you're coming from,my Readme's state if you want to give me credit, great, if not I understand how complex route building can be.
That however,is me and to those who kind of got on Ed's case they are his files and therefore his rules apply.
I keep all the temp folders of downloads used on the CA&E in the CAE folder and though I'm a ways off from release it's going to be a daunting task putting that readme together(and I'm sure I'll have to update said file as I'm sure 1 or 2 people might slip through at first).
Ed would it be possible to post a list of your creations(provided said list is short enough)so that we may be able to go through our routes ref files to make sure(at least in my case from the early days of the CA&E)either full credit is given or the items removed depending on your wishes?Gary S


42 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Member since Apr-8-03 · 554 posts

RE: Ed, please reconsider

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>I guess my point here is just because we aren't
>re-distributing it doesn't mean we don't have to give
>credit. Whether or not it was included in the zip files, we
>are still using it. Therefore I believe that credit still
>needs to be given. That's right.It's okay under the fair use principle for a recipient of a distributed route to use the editor to add in MS stuff using his own creativity for his own enjoyment but it is a violation of both the EULA and copyright for a route developer to do that and distribute the product, w/o regard to the means that MS content gets into their the final locations once it's in the hands of the end user. It's really no different than selling a board game that says place our small name plate in the center of a Monopoly game and using our specially colored currency and their property cards....What's being protected is MS creativity. What's not relevant is the distribution techiques.Dave NelsonWP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 100% complete;
SP mainline, Oakland-Stockton: 20% complete;
Aug 1950 Previous Topic | Next Topic – image 11

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Member since Sep-9-03 · 35 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-04 AT 05:17 PM (EST)

OK...OK...I admit it.I got the texture for the Stag Beer Sign from here http://bellevilleillinois.homestead.com/advertising2.html
(scroll down) and I got the idea for the frame from photos that Rich Garber posted on the site over a year ago...I'm so ashamed....

But I have no credibility

Best Wishes,
Brian W. Dougherty
briwdou@verizon.net

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Charter Member · 764 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

When I release my alleged route, I wouldn't think of not giving credit for stuff used. On the other hand if somebody used some of my stuff in their route and didn't acknowledge me, I couldn't give a rat's a$$. But if somebody used my stuff and charged money for it, then I'm gonna get real pissed off. $0.02

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Charter Member · 1587 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

Hobart
But if somebody used my stuff and charged money for it, then I'm gonna get real pissed off. $0.02 Right there is where you hit it,my easy going nature in regards to credit goes right out the window when it comes to someone making cash off my(or anyone elses) work,I use the regular edition of TSM and by the EULA I can't make money off my creations,therefore no one else should.Gary S


42 year old future curmudgen(Hey you kids get offa my lawn!!)

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Charter Member · 229 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

Although I do not develop routes and objects for uploading, I do believe in the basic principle of giving credit where credit is due. Ed, I would also like to say that you reconsider in pulling your work. As it stands now, we are only in the first release. MSTS 2 will come out eventually. Since Microsoft took the project over, we will never really know if the current objects will work with MSTS 2. When MSTS 2 comes out, it will take the work of the entire community to figure out what makes it tick let alone porting over routes and objects. With this in mind, let's get this issue sorted out and move on.Edward K.

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Charter Member · 50 posts

RE: Attn: Route builders, 3D modelers, and simmers.

As I hinted at in another post, all Downloaded content comes with a readme. If we create a Standard readme, this can copied into a folder in MSTS perhaps called ReadMe (original hey?). Then some bright spark could write a bit of code to read the content in a route, match up the readme's, cream off, say, the top six lines of each one - these first six lines containing some text that the content creator wants to say to the world at large - and create a MegaReadme listing all the Content Creators in one fell swoop. As has been said elsewhere, perhaps this functionality could be built into RouteRiter??Cheers, 7&YPS I am no expert in these things, so, let me know if this is 'off the rails'!!

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