CamelBack American Progress

LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-04 AT 10:29 AM (EST)

Well after countless hours of effort I think I'm ready to start work on the tender. But as most modelers know, you never "finish" a model, you just stop working on it. I'm still finding areas to improve on this one and I would very much like pointers and contructive criticisms from the experts on this one. I'm still shooting for a Christmas release. My biggest challenge is a custom cab which I've never done before and which I have no information unique to the camelbacks (I'll have to use "poetic licenses" if I do a custom cab)One question I have. I don't have a top down plan view of the loco. Does anyone know on most steam locomotives of this era if the front "deck" (between the pilot and the steam cylinder) is a solid deck or is open with the lateral frame members showing.

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RE: CamelBack American Progress, CumbresEngineer, Dec-11-04, 12:05 PM, (1) RE: CamelBack American Progress, mjs2101, Dec-11-04, 12:21 PM, (2) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Pennsyduplex, Dec-11-04, 03:21 PM, (3) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Derby415, Dec-11-04, 04:25 PM, (4) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Jonatan, Dec-11-04, 05:02 PM, (5) RE: CamelBack American Progress, KeltikSylk, Dec-11-04, 09:01 PM, (6) RE: CamelBack American Progress, CajunRon, Dec-11-04, 11:36 PM, (7) RE: CamelBack American Progress, CumbresEngineer, Dec-12-04, 02:02 AM, (8) RE: CamelBack American Progress, mjs2101, Dec-12-04, 12:53 PM, (9) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Derby415, Dec-12-04, 01:20 PM, (10) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Jonatan, Dec-12-04, 02:40 PM, (11) RE: CamelBack American Progress, CumbresEngineer, Dec-12-04, 11:00 PM, (12) RE: CamelBack American Progress, CumbresEngineer, Dec-12-04, 11:15 PM, (13) RE: CamelBack American Progress, mjs2101, Dec-13-04, 00:26 AM, (14) RE: CamelBack American Progress, mrmike, Dec-13-04, 03:38 AM, (15) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Jonatan, Dec-13-04, 04:33 AM, (16) RE: CamelBack American Progress, mrmike, Dec-13-04, 11:11 AM, (18) RE: CamelBack American Progress, CumbresEngineer, Dec-13-04, 11:23 PM, (26) RE: CamelBack American Progress, CumbresEngineer, Dec-13-04, 04:32 PM, (21) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Derby415, Dec-13-04, 05:11 PM, (22) RE: CamelBack American Progress, SouthernCpl, Dec-13-04, 06:38 PM, (24) RE: CamelBack American Progress, helfrickc, Dec-13-04, 07:26 PM, (25) RE: CamelBack American Progress, SouthernCpl, Dec-15-04, 01:45 PM, (29) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Timbo611, Dec-15-04, 10:55 PM, (32) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Mimbrogno, Dec-13-04, 11:08 AM, (17) RE: CamelBack American Progress, mrmike, Dec-13-04, 11:25 AM, (19) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Derby415, Dec-13-04, 11:38 AM, (20) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Jonatan, Dec-13-04, 05:29 PM, (23) RE: CamelBack American Progress, CumbresEngineer, Dec-13-04, 11:33 PM, (27) RE: CamelBack American Progress, FURX, Dec-14-04, 09:36 PM, (28) RE: CamelBack American Progress, CumbresEngineer, Dec-15-04, 09:49 PM, (30) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Derby415, Dec-15-04, 10:48 PM, (31) RE: CamelBack American Progress, WCHobo, Dec-17-04, 00:10 AM, (33) RE: CamelBack American Progress, Derby415, Dec-19-04, 04:21 PM, (34)

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WOW! Now THAT is a fabulous model. That is freakin' good!You need to make more steam locomotives!Kevin Bush

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon!

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Well, not certain about your particular locomotive, but on engines I have studied, the front deck usually is solid, running in front of the ladders and pilot, with a solid section running back to the front of the cylinders in between the ladders (forming a "T"). The area between the ladder and cylinder front is open.Unfortunately your best bet to ensure accuracy is to see if you can find photos that might show some of this detail. My interests is in southern steam engines, and have seen very few details of camelbacks.You current project looks very good! Keep up the good work!Mykel

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Thats one great loco you have there. She is very pretty. Keep up the good work.

"The Standard Railroad of the World"
"Pennsylvania Railroad RULES!!!!"

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ummmmm WOW!

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Jim

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I like camelbacks, they're neat. /JonatanSteam rules!

Train gifs from Dans Railroad Gif RoundhouseNever trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.I'm the steam freak, ph34r me!!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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Here's a cab view, engineers side from one of Readings camelback switchers.
Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-11-04 AT 11:40 PM (EST)

Thanks to all for the comments and encouragement. And thanks for the cab interior photo. I had a few set backs today. Today was the maiden voyage in MSTS itself. Needless to say, it wasn't a smooth launch. MSTS wouldn't load and I had to reinstall. Then the animations that worked flawlessly in Gmax and in Sview didn't work quite right in MSTS. So I'm having to re-animate some of the valve gear. I've got one side working now.And another strange problem. The front bogie displays fine when I first load up the test activity but then disappears when I put the locomotive in motion. I'm afraid this one's gonna be hard to figure out.

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Man, I would not like to be assigned to one of those for a day! Luckily running gear falures weren't THAT common with those...but if you had one, it would not be pretty. So damned cramped too. All your controls are beside you rather than in front of you. They're neat, but ugly, and a pain I'm sure, especially if they didn't have power reverse, which a lot of them weren't equipped with. Kevin Bush

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon!

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I agree, definitely not a good place to work! Could you imagine being a fireman on one of those that was not equiped with a stoker! One question, how would the engineer and fireman communicate? It gets pretty loud in a standard cab, I would imagine it would be even more so with a boiler between them and above the running gear.Mykel

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Well the fireman has to climb out of the cab and go "down" outside to fire the locomotive right? that had to be a pain in the ass...esp. in the winter.

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Jim

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-04 AT 02:41 PM (EST)

I find Camelbacks to be quite... handsome actually. Sure they're not an engineers dream but they have their special odd-ball charm. Edit: typ0z/JonatanSteam rules!

Train gifs from Dans Railroad Gif RoundhouseNever trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.I'm the steam freak, ph34r me!!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-04 AT 11:06 PM (EST)

Being a fireman on one would be no problem, they all were pretty small, and I don't think they were running up very big grades or anything. The engineer probably put up with a lot of stack talk noise coming into the cab being that he is so close to the stack. The fireman was of course back at the rear near the gangway. The head end brakeman probably rode the other side of the "cab". The only way they could have communicated was for the fireman to walk up along the running boards to the engineer. There really isn't much communicating that needs to go on though. Especially in the early days when Camel Backs were more common. In later years the most common saying between the engineer and fireman while in motion was probably "Clear Block!". "It get's pretty loud in a standard cab"It get's loud in ANY steam locomotive cab. Drifting or running wide open. The more the throttle is open the louder it get's of course. Not just because of exhaust noise, but the fire literally ROARS. The dynamo/generator (whatever you want to call it) adds a lot to the noise too. Just this constant "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz" all the time. But the exhaust noise drowns it out while running. Everything is loud on those things. Let's just leave it at that. Basically anything that you can think of that operates or you can turn on and off on a steam locomotive is either loud, dirty, smelly, or heavy!You gotta love it! Kevin Bush

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon!

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I have been standing next to the tracks on the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic Railroad and watching a 480 (K-36) thunder past me at 10mph and have the main rod slam itself against the crank pin on the main axle of the engine (meaning the one with the eccentric crank on it) and have THAT hurt my ear. Whatever ear that was facing the engine. I could "feel" the sound. "CLANK".That's why us men like this stuff. It's the testosterone kickin' in. Your sitting in the seat hand on the throttle, smellin that smoke and steam, and the engines just bangin away. The vibrations through the seat and arm rest and floor...waving at all the pretty girls at every crossing. I REALLY hope I get hired on with the Cumbres & Toltec next season!I am so ready to move out and get done with this High School B.S.Good evening gentleman.
Kevin Bush

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon!

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Ok, one more thing I am curious about; are all the fireman controls at the rear of the engine (normal "boiler" location), or are they located inside the cab? Sorry, but I simply do not know a lot about Camelbacks and this seems like a good time to ask. Don't mean to hi-jack your thread CajunRon.
"Everything is loud on those things." Simply music to any steam fans ears.... Only wish MSTS could reproduce the true steam engine sound experience. Hopefully the next Sim will......Mykel

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Michael, Look at the attached photo. This is the fireman's side of the locomotive. Notice the access ladder just rear of the boiler. the engineers cab on the other side is accessed from the steps above the pilot to a walkway on the right side of the boiler to the cab. My Computer specs are in my profile
Mike
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-04 AT 04:34 AM (EST)

>waving at all the pretty girls at every crossing.I asume they won't wave back. Not many teenage girls are caring about steam trains, even less about the man in the cab... I once waved and blew the whistle (this was on my special day n all) at some pretty thing with a bike, got a finger as a response. LMAO/JonatanSteam rules!

Train gifs from Dans Railroad Gif RoundhouseNever trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.I'm the steam freak, ph34r me!!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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Jonatan, Back when I was a kid, the engineers would blow the whistles at us, boys & girls alike. We all waved back. That's when steam was king of the road. My Computer specs are in my profile
Mike
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-04 AT 11:25 PM (EST)

I must say, your story sounds a little outrageous to me but...sorry buddy, better luck next time I guess!Well let's see here Jon. When it comes to Girls in general, I don't think you'll see me waving at some 16 year old girl when I'm 25 or something. If I do, it will be because...she's just there with her family or with a bunch of other people...just wave at everyone. It was a generalized statement. If I happen to see some chicky babe (In MY AGE range!) standing at the crossing along with everyone else, I'll wave at HER! More mature girls will look at you as a man that is doing what he loves and respect you. Not just because of that, if they even realize you are running because of that, but they will respect you because you are running a machine that makes the ground shake and hurts her ears and you have all that power at your command.After a girl experiences that, trains aren't just some little old Choo Choo anymore.And believe me, I saw plenty of girls standing at crossings along the Cumbres & Toltec this year. Kevin Bush

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon!

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The only time I think the firemans controls could possibly be installed ahead of the firebox...is if was an oil burner. Have the firing valve in the cab. Man...what a stupid concept...camel backs. They are neat looking, but ugly and just don't make any sense to me. Just seems like a weird idea somebody had. It is a shame that none remain. There are locomotives that are running today that at one point were camel backs but have been converted. Are there any actual camel backs on display?
Kevin Bush

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon!

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Kev,
Correct me if i am wrong but i do believe the Strassburg railway has one.

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Jim

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LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-04 AT 06:41 PM (EST)

The Strasburg does have one, Reading no. 1187, (or Strasburg no. 4) depending on the era you look at it.Camelbacks weren't a bad idea really. This gave the engineer at least a little space (although subjecting him to a real pain in the a$$ if something went wrong) and much better visabliltiy, as seeing around the wooten firebox was i'm sure quite difficult, without adding length to the locomotive by making 1 cab where all the controls fit. The Wooten firebox was designed big because it is an anthracite burner as opposed to bituminous coal which doesn't need the same conditions to combust. Anthracite takes much more air to get burning but once its burning it really can't be stopped. The wooten firebox enabled the efficent use of anthracite coal for railroads. And if you look at the roads that used camelbacks, Reading, CNJ etc. they are almost all in the NE(where anthracite coal is mined ) and anthrcite haulers as well. The camelback is what i call an example of "good initiative, coulda been better judgement." But they were all together remarkable little machines (minus the huge ones (0-8-8-0)erie built)BTW that is an outstanding model. Keep up the great work!

EIN

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>The Strasburg does have one, Reading no. 1187, (or Strasburg
>no. 4) depending on the era you look at it.
No. 4 is currently under going a thorough inspection with an eye towards restoration to operable condition.
This her current condition, stripped of her shell.

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Oh boy, oh boy! Would I love to see old #4 up and running again. The first time I saw her was right after they drained her boiler for display. I seem to remember they were having steaming problems and was too much effort to keep running. She really is a well proportioned little mother hubbard ain't she? She'd make another fantastic additiion to the Strasburg's first class running stable if you ask me. Keep on muckin'

EIN

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Take it from me guys, chicks dig the overalls! Tim Botti
University of Pittsburgh
Mechanical Engineering
www.pitt.edu/~tjb23We'll see 611 steam again...someday

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That picture of a 10 wheel camelback shows one of the more commen types of camelbacks produced. THe most prolific types were 2-6-0s and 4-6-0s opperating on the CNJ. This photo also shows the basic layout and details commen to most camelbacks. In particular, most had a single sand dome infront of the cab, air compressor mounted promenently on the boiler, the solid pilot that was a part of the frame, and an extra large firebox. The large firebox is what made this design so popular. It could produce alot of steam fairly easily. Because of this, many were assigned to heavy freights and steap grades. They were not very pleasent to operate, as you might have guessed. Because of the unusual position of the fireman, communication between him and the engineer was quite difficult, if not impossible. So, in between firings, he would move up to the cab, and and find out what conditions were ahead, so he could prepair his fire. Also, because he had to be in two places at once, he had controles in both cabs. One other drawback was that he could not help the engineer keep a lookout on the tracks. This was a big problem since the engineer could not see a dang thing on the left side with the boiler in the way. There have been a few incidents because of this!
Surprisingly, the forward cab does not get has hot as cabs on regular locomotives. this is due to the heavy lagging, or insulation around the boiler, used to prevent losing excess heat. In fact, the rear cab was hotter than the front, even without the sides or much of a roof, opening those doors to bail in a few shovels made it hotter than hell! This was especially true when some had not one, but two giant doors for the extra wide firebox. Needless to say, crews HATED these beasts! Luckly for us, computers don't simulate the conditions!
As for the model, It looks extrodinary! I love models that have the detail and apperance level such as yours! I definatly am impressed with the skill and the dillagence with which you have machined this locomotive! I forsee about a houndred repaints of this locomotive!
As for the front truck, is it possible that an overlapping ACE texture could cause this, or could it be some paramiters going into negative values? While not being a modeler myself, I seem to recall some other builders having the same problems occasionally. I'm afraid I don't know where the posts are, excactly, but they should be in this archive somewhere. Finally, I know you have spent a great deal of time and effort on this beautiful project, But I have one suggestion, if your interested. If it would be at all possible, perhaps you could use this model as a base for conversion into another type of locomotive. Maybe you could lengthen the firebox, and add another driver and side rod. Maybe you could drop one lead wheel and make a mogel type. I know this would make alot of poeple really happy, to have not one, but perhaps three different camelbacks, and not just repaints, either!!I wish you good luck and happy holidays from Arizona!
-Matthew Imbrogno
Keeping Baldwins alive through the 21st century.

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Matthew, That color picture of the CNJ camelback is indeed a 4-6-0. If you look very closely, you can just barely see a bar riding the rails just under the pilot. This was for a system called "Train Control" Signals were sent along the rails & picked up by the sensors. This alerter would let the engineer be aware of speed zones & to check if he was awake. My Computer specs are in my profile
Mike
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Cool info. it would be wicked if anyone modeled a cabview to model both the cab, engineers side, and the firemans are down by the firebox.

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Jim

President Of BLLW
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>Matthew,
>
> That color picture of the CNJ camelback is indeed a
>4-6-0. If you look very closely, you can just barely see a
>bar riding the rails just under the pilot. This was for a
>system called "Train Control" Signals were sent along the
>rails & picked up by the sensors. This alerter would let the
>engineer be aware of speed zones & to check if he was awake. Wow, I didn't know thay had a primitive type of ATC back then, sweet! /JonatanSteam rules!

Train gifs from Dans Railroad Gif RoundhouseNever trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.I'm the steam freak, ph34r me!!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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You bet ya man! I believe the Union Switch & Signal company supplied the U.P. with their design. Look at like uhhh...a UP 4-12-2 9000 class sometime. Some of them will have a box at the end of the running board on the engineers side, just by the front of the smokebox. Thats the ATC box. Then they routed a line to a little box with a drive gear to the first axle of the lead truck. Then the signals were in the cab of course.The UP also tested Motorola remote Cab phones on some of their 9000's. It looked basically like another dynamo, and then basically a wall mounted head set in the cab.Real cool little goodies.
Kevin Bush

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon!

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Once you experience steam from the cab, diesel is nothing by comparison.....
...even standing still, the damn thing moves, as I like to say. ..I remember riding in WMSR 734, once we cut into the Narrows, we really started working... ..the cab jostled and swayed, and thumped, and rattled all the way up the mountain......the sound was incredibly loud, the exhaust bark, the fire had an incredible "sizzle-hiss" sound that was about deafening, the sound of steam, and all sorts of things... just... I can't imagine making a living on one of those things......and on my railfan side, one of my favorite little things to do was look at the folks lined up at the tracks time to time, waving up to the cab, just egging for a reply on the whistle, and a wave.
....and needless to say, giving it to them was quite neat ....this camelback.....I'm telling you, is looking sweet. I have to say, the model is very attractive... I'd say that a cab and sound pack would round it out to make running it an enjoyable experience...... take your time... this could really be something...-Jeffrey

Courteous Future Engineer
NKP 2-8-4 #765. www.765.org
Chessie System Historical Society. http://moosevalley.org/cshs/
My Website; www.xanga.com/csxd765
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Yep, I hear ya. They have a whole oura about them. I have always been interested in Steam. My dad has been running the ones at the local zoo here on the weekends for about 25 years. They are 30" gauge. 4 to 6% grades. Nothing small. I run them quite often. What a feeling. That testosterone kickin in ya know what I mean!What REALLY started me on steam was in 2000. At the Union Pacific Historical Society Convention in Cheyenne. The UP ran an excursion for us over Sherman Hill. I real big into Big Boy's then and all, and my dad got me a ride in the cab of 3985. My dad and I rode after the 3rd run-by during a thunderstorm, tornado in the distance, for 40 minutes. Basically if you know the geography of the line, we rode from Borie to just below Sherman. Which is the summit.What a ride. That was unbelieveable. Bob Krieger let me fire it for awhile too! It was....oh man. I was on cloud nine for a year. Anyone want audio of that ride?! We got the whole thing on DAT audio!Sorry for the choppy response. I'm in a hurry I guess.Kevin Bush

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon!

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Lets see some updated progress shots please

Thanks,
Jim

President Of BLLW
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Are this steam going to be released into the train-sim library?

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Yes it will probably be uploaded to the train sim library. Speaking of which...can we see some updates please

Thanks,
Jim

President Of BLLW
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