The last centipede

At least from this shop, being tested on Jim Wards Port Ogden & Northern...

is National Railways of Mexico 6413. Much like most of her sisters, except for 2048 x 2048 textures. Didn't know you could do that! The skins were created way huge and then just fed into TGATool. The only error I got was from TSM. It refused to map anything larger than 1024 x 1024 so I had to resize the BMP's. MakeACE automatically resizes the TGA files to 1024 x 1024 with no issues (and seems to do a better job than Paint Shop Pro).The road test went very well, at least until the locomotive disappeared down a deep hole in the Shea Mine. I guess I missed the warning signs?Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

RE: The last centipede..., philmoberg, Nov-08-04, 08:01 PM, (1) RE: The last centipede..., henry3, Nov-09-04, 05:58 PM, (2) RE: The last centipede..., Smokey, Nov-30-04, 05:13 PM, (3) RE: The last centipede..., CStevens, Nov-30-04, 10:38 PM, (4) RE: The last centipede..., Smokey, Dec-01-04, 11:46 AM, (6) RE: The last centipede..., KeltikSylk, Dec-02-04, 00:10 AM, (8) RE: The last centipede..., KeltikSylk, Dec-02-04, 00:15 AM, (9) RE: The last centipede..., Smokey, Dec-02-04, 11:23 AM, (10) RE: The last centipede..., Smokey, Dec-02-04, 05:56 PM, (11) RE: The last centipede..., Smokey, Dec-03-04, 08:57 AM, (12) RE: The last centipede..., henry3, Dec-03-04, 11:09 AM, (13) RE: The last centipede..., pointroberts, Dec-03-04, 04:46 PM, (14) RE: The last centipede..., CStevens, Nov-30-04, 10:40 PM, (5) RE: The last centipede..., KeltikSylk, Dec-02-04, 00:01 AM, (7) RE: The last centipede..., CStevens, Dec-03-04, 04:57 PM, (15)

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

¡Caramba! -Phil

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-04 AT 05:59 PM (EST)

VIVA BALDWIN!You learn something everyday. I wouldn't have thought that you could do anything with a texture that large.Henry"Now the trick is, Mr. Musick, how do you propose to retieve that locomotive?"

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

After lurking about the various Train-Sim forums for over a year, I finally decided to register and offer what I can to help with your Baldwin centipede efforts. I worked with them as part of my job in the Seaboard Railroad Research and Test Department from 1948 to late 1960. Have lost a lot of bits from my organic RAM between my ears, but here goes with some things I do remember:
Most people don't know what happened to 4503 and 4513. They disappeared from the roster early when they mutually totaled each other in a collision. Can't remember when. Maybe someone can tell us.
Downloaded your 4500-1 alpha. A superb job of modeling. It shows your perfectionist nature and skill. Watching it from all angles while pulling freight on Marias 3 brings out some thoughts in which you may be interested.
Seeing the engine detail through the side grilles is remarkable modeling, but you might save some polygons there as it is very dark inside, even with the lights on. Our (Seaboard) units had big 4-cycle, 8-cylinder engines that I recall turned 800 RPM in top notch (I remember notches, not percentages). They put out a fair amount of smoke, but not nearly as much as modeled. Also it stayed in a well-defined wind stream instead of billowing as much as the alpha.
Speaking of side grilles on the 4500, the forward grilles were not symmetrical. The right side frontmost grille did not extend into the yellow band. That would complicate the modeling, though.
Several things strike me in the see-through depictions. For example, there is so much real-life clutter between the driving trucks and the underbody that you cannot see through to the wheels or daylight on the far side (bloked by traction motors, cables, pipes, support structure, etc.) Another place to save some polygons.
I believe I would have noticed if you could see through the center grille to daylight out the far grille, but I wouldn't swear to it. It models a nice bit of perspective as she rolls by, though.
Speaking of rolling by, you speak of "burbling" sound. The units did have a distinct sound, which I believe to be due to the exhaust pulsations of a 4-cycle 8-cylinder engine running at 800, or less, RPM. The "burble" likely arises from a beat note established by two of those motors that you could never precisely synchronize. The sound still sticks in my head! You use the description "burble" so let me paraphrase "Jabberwocky," "The Centipedes came whiffling through the tulgy wood, and burbled as they came." The whiffle is the missing turbocharger sound! LOL
If you go back into that area for something else, put an axle on the last wheels of the trailing pilot. Certain low-rear views reveal it's absence.
You mentioned, in one of your posts, the need for some photographs. I will try to attach three: right and left front quarter views of 4500, and left front quarter of 4501. These undoubtedly came off the early internet and you may have them already. They may have at one time had copyrights, but since they are for personal and honorable purposes, they should be OK to use for modeling reference.
You are doing a grand job in prolonging the memory of a very deserving locomotive design. It is true that Seaboard used them exclusively in freight servive. I do not recall one of them ever pulling a passenger train, even experimentally. I believe that ours did not have steam generators, a necessity for passenger service. The paint job on the sides of 4500 was the same (citrus) as for our passenger locos. Many of our passenger units started out with yellow roofs; pretty, but couldn't keep diesel soot off.
It was with regret that the job of dieselizing Seaboard was finished, the 4500's were retiring, and I moved on into the Huntsville rocket racket in 1960. Think of it, we could be sitting in the cab of an old 4500-series loco if I hadn't blown the whistle going out the gate with it when I left Jacksonville! LOL Best regards - - - Smokey

Smokey

Attachments

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/41acee265c74cfbd.jpg

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/41aceec360704d99.jpg

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/41acef13621fdc93.jpg

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-04 AT 10:39 PM (EST)

Smokey, thanks for your input and great Seaboard information. I just wanted to point out that the last shot was of the freight scheme color change to the centpede's in the late 50's.I should have my Seaboard Air Line route completed in the first quarter of 2005. These units will look great on their home turf.Great job Frank and building these great looking units.

Carey
Seaboard Air Line
Tampa - Wildwood
88 miles of track work, roads, rivers, lakes, and bridges completed. 63 miles of static scenery complete.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Thanks for your response to my post on Seaboard remembrances. In my beginners ignorance and haste to participate, I may have tagged your post for reply, but since you all are a "band of brothers" on the subject and Frank Musick will have read my post, he will understand how much I appreciate the wonderful details in his 4500-1 alpha model.

Most of us are aware how the mind hides memories in the distant past so they become slow or impossible to unveil. After the intense thoughts while posting of my "Seaboard days," I dreamed during my sleep last night of some things that may be of interest. I hope these uncovered memories are accurate and not distorted by the passage of 50 years.

I dreamed of being at our wash rack in Jacksonville doing testing with various cleaners (both acidic and alkaline types). Of course the subject unit was the 4500! The openings I have been calling side grilles were completrely louvered to shed rain and, of course the spray from the wash rack. The louvers were full-width horizontal slats about 4 or 5 inches high having a somewhat "vertically stretched z-shape" cross section. The paint scheme extended onto the slats and there was no wire mesh over the outside of the louvered opening. Spraying does not clean them well, and they were their usual dingy self in my dream. Woke up before I could go inside to see how the bugs and birds were blocked; maybe an inside mesh which wouldn't be seen for modeling; just don't remember. Normally I do not remember my dreams, but maybe this one was meant to be.

The units were driven slowly through the wash rack in response to a hostler's notching back and forth between idle and first notch. In both positions the diesels are at their lowest RPM and each exhaust pulse was distinct. That idling Baldwin sound came through clearly in my dream along with the loud and distinct sledgehammer "pock-a" of the fuel burn inside the giant cylinders as one stands nearby. Gee whiz fellas, I gotta get back to sleep earlier tonight. It was a fun trip, accurate or not!

I remember Wildwood well. The SAL track from Baldwin (Florida) south through Wildwood and on was where we learned to pull 150-car freights. In the early days, with several 4500-series roaring away up front, I don't remember that they "burbled" at full throttle. Also we tied as many as six FT's together. Later we ran six GP's at the head and considered that to be the limit at the time. EMD would not concur with our "six-pack." Train handling had to be carefully done, as that much drawbar would pull couplers right out of their pockets if the train wouldn't move. Also had more than usual trouble with very long trains running in on you on the downgrades and snapping as the units took out the slack. Skillful attention to train brake release so as to keep some braking at the rear of the trains on the downgrades would keep the train stretched out and rolling as if it were sitting on a moving ribbon. The skill of our engineers ("throttle-benders" all) in adapting to the full capability of the new diesel fleet was one of the reasons I saw Seaboard as such a good railroad. They would be proud to see the fine modeling you guys are doing on their hardware.

One last thing; I checked the Citrus paint scheme on an early passenger unit (SAL 3002) against the side paint on the SAL 4500 and they are not exactly the same, so it may be possible that the Citrus on the 4500 (first one delivered) was being considered for the freight paint scheme at the time. Such a decision would have been before my time, but I do not remember any talk about it. Memory failed me also as the side striping on the 4500 freight and the 3002 passenger are distinctly different widths. Our Research and Test Department was also heavily involved in paint formulation, application, and durability testing, and I should remember such details, but the murk of more than 50 years has obscured it.

Now I am back where I started with this post, discussing memories. Thanks to all you guys for doing what you do. There are a few of us old Seaboard heads that watch over your shoulders and rejoice. Perhaps we may again run SAL equipment on SAL tracks, even if only in simulation, so please keep on keeping on.

Best regards - - - Smokey

Smokey

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I wanted to thank you for your posts. I've been going through a few things lately and my interest for modeling in general has slipped a few notches.I appreciate the input on the sounds and details, especially the louvers. I can't really take credit for the sound effects. They are borrowed from NALW Baldwin Sharks. There has been some discussion, however, about NALW doing centipede sounds for me. Have to wait and see what they come up with. I've been working on a more prototypical pilot for #4500 but work on all the models has stalled.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

I used that same photo for the freight scheme on 4510 and 4513. It was the only one I could find. Those two locomotives are almost finished and should be alpha releases soon (if this funk I'm in ever passes)Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Frank - - Thanks so much for your replies. I wish we were next-door neighbors, as I feel a need to encourage you out of the funk. Sometimes life gets discouraging, as we all have experienced. Experience also shows there are better things in the future if we can just hang on and get by the present. Take that to heart from an 80-year-old who would be your friend.

Now, back to Seaboard. I found that you already had the color photo of the 4500 when I discovered your post of September 19, 2004, on topic 8260. The .jpg that I sent holds up pretty well when zoomed, and as I look at It, it surely looks like there is an outside wire mesh over the louvers, particularly the lower part of the front one. At any rate, there was something somewhere to keep out birds and trash.

I saw a question somewhere asking if centipedes were ever run in tandem. Yes - Seaboard ran them sometimes in pairs. We didn't have many of those units to spread around. Initially had 14, then destroyed SAL4503 and SAL4513 in a accident, leaving an even dozen for freight service. Your memorializing the 4513 is a nice touch.

Frank, you have a great talent for the modeling you do. Please don't stay away too long, but take a break knowing that you have great respect and best wishes from us all. I once considered modeling some of the Seaboard stuff, but was overwhelmed by all the detail work, the many interfaces, the timing problems, and all the rest. You have my utmost admiration.

That about completes my data dump on SAL diesels. Time to go back to lurking. Many thanks to all you guys.

Best regards - - - Smokey

Smokey

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Frank - - Thought I better send you this URL. Perhaps you have already seen this spread from the Baldwin quarterly magazine for the first quarter of 1946. Found it by searching for "Baldwin diesel" at Google.

http://yardlimit.railfan.net/baldwindiesels/magazine-1946-1/index.htmlGo there for photos of the delivery of 4500 to Seaboard. Photos of unit, engineers station inside, engine details, truck details, body layout and plenty of descriptive text. Click on the individual pages for full-size readable copy. Note that the front grill on both sides match, conflicting with the photos I sent you where the left side lower part is almost triangular. I have no idea how the delivered article got changed, as the photo I sent, and you already had for modeling, was the "real thing" that ran the road.

Repeating the URL in case it got garbled:

http://yardlimit.railfan.net/baldwindiesels/magazine-1946-1/index.htmlBest regards - - -Smokey

Smokey

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-04 AT 08:59 AM (EST)

Frank - - Gotta make a correction to my post of November 30th: I gave the top RPM of the big Baldwin Centipede diesel engines as a recollection of 800 RPM. I find in the literature that they had a top RPM of only 625. The 800 RPM I remembered was for the EMD 567-12 and -16's. No wonder each exhaust pulse of the Baldwins is heard individually!

My apologies to everyone - - - - Smokey

Smokey

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Smokey,Thank you for the link to that website. And thank you for you thoughts/comments on your experiences with the Centipedes. I enjoy these forums for a variety of reasons, but posts such as yours are the true gemstones.I only saw the Centipedes early in life (NdeM), so I really don't really have any clear memories of them. Now I can "borrow" yours.Take care,Henry

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Smokey, let me add my "thanks" to Henry's for your fascinating recollections of the Centipedes and your time at SAL. Frank, love the NdeM model, and now Smokey has got me interested in the SAL models as well. Just so you guys know BOTH your contributions are appreciated!

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Frank, do you still plan on building the Baby Face Baldwin unit?

Carey
Seaboard Air Line
Tampa - Wildwood
88 miles of track work, roads, rivers, lakes, and bridges completed. 63 miles of static scenery complete.

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Yes. It will use the nose developed for the centipedes.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

Alert | IP

Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Frank, that's great news!I hope you don't mind my request, but it would be fantastic to have the baby face in Seaboard Air Line "Savannah Green" with the red striping. I attached a picture of an E7 to clearify the color scheme.Thank you!!

Carey
Seaboard Air Line
Tampa - Wildwood
88 miles of track work, roads, rivers, lakes, and bridges completed. 63 miles of static scenery complete.

Attachments

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/41b0e0e2361d5042.jpg

http://www.train-sim.com/dcforum/User_files/41b0e137378e0105.jpg

Alert | IP

[ Home | MSTS Forum | MSTS FAQ | How To... | File Library ] Copyright © 2004 by Nels Anderson. All Rights Reserved.