Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?

I pulled this photo from Old Colony-Newport's web site (http://www.ocnrr.com/history1.htm). The photo was apparently taken at the Newport RI Depot, which was the terminal for Old Colony's Newport branchline. The web site doesn't give a date. Can anyone give me a little history on this engine (maker, era, etc.)? Is there one like it in the File Library? I've looked at all the thumbnails and, in addition to fancier paint jobs, none seem to have the same configuration of stack and headlamp. Charlie

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RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, CumbresEngineer, May-18-04, 08:52 PM, (1) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, railfan4ever, May-18-04, 09:04 PM, (2) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, CumbresEngineer, May-18-04, 09:24 PM, (3) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, KeltikSylk, May-18-04, 10:16 PM, (4) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, Jonatan, May-19-04, 04:28 AM, (5) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, CumbresEngineer, May-19-04, 12:43 PM, (6) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, Jonatan, May-19-04, 04:34 PM, (7) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, CumbresEngineer, May-19-04, 06:26 PM, (8) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, Xacto, May-19-04, 08:07 PM, (9) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, CumbresEngineer, May-19-04, 08:24 PM, (10) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, ssw, May-20-04, 00:34 AM, (13) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, CumbresEngineer, May-20-04, 08:11 AM, (14) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, ssw, May-20-04, 09:10 AM, (15) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, baldwin, May-28-04, 03:18 PM, (21) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, Coonskin, May-19-04, 11:10 PM, (11) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, CumbresEngineer, May-20-04, 00:01 AM, (12) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, CharlieB, May-22-04, 09:59 AM, (16) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, Coonskin, May-22-04, 02:14 PM, (17) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, johnfrum, May-23-04, 09:22 AM, (18) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, CharlieB, May-23-04, 01:08 PM, (19) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, Jonatan, May-23-04, 01:58 PM, (20) RE: Can anyone identify this 4-4-0?, KeltikSylk, May-31-04, 02:04 PM, (22)

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Looks Baldwin to me. I don't study much steam power before world war 1 era. I know how they all worked and what problems they had with them, but I like the super power stuff personally....that engine is very very early. Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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I don't know much about steam locomotives, but that looks to me like an American 4-4-0. I'm not sure who built it though. It might have been Baldwin or Lima. Like I said, I don't know much about steam locomotives (they seem too complicated).

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haha! They seem too complicated! You got the 4-4-0 part and it being an American type parts right. I think you're also right on it being either Lima or Baldwin too. They are complicated...Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Judging from the smoke box she was built after 1880 but before 1900. That extension was fashionable in steam design for about a decade or so.The straight stack, domes and the passenger cars make me think 1890 or so...The rectangular builders plate may not be Baldwin...They tended to use circular plates. American Locomotive comes to mind. By the end of the 19th Century there were only a few builders. Baldwin and the various components of AlCo being the major players left on the field.Moving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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Whenever she was built is an era I wanna go back to. LOVEly!/JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.I'm the steam freak, ph34r me!!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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The era that thing was running in was a very tough era in railroad history. I am reading a book by a scotsman who moved to the U.S. in the late 1800's. His name was Angus Sinclair. It's everything you'd want to know about being an engineer and getting steam over the road. The book is copyright 1888.Theres a chapter in there about what to do if you break a main rod! That hardly EVER happend today, but when he was on the railroad, the rods were made from different metals than the late type stuff.I would rather work on locomotives with more power and that are so efficient that when we're running wide open with the gear in the corner and working at the maximum on our hands and knees, the safetys STILL pop. Thats what any big engine and late type boiler will do. Even though its using all the steam it can, it still is making more than it's using, and with plenty of water in the boiler...Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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... and if it creates more steam than it's using when running full gear and wide open think what it will make when using no steam at all and the pressure rising faster than the valve can vent! BOOM! >_</JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.I'm the steam freak, ph34r me!!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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Well, if the safety valves set correctly that wouldn't happen! The major cause of explosions of course is water...not enough water above the crown sheet, crown sheet gets hotter than hell and bends and warps and collapses then BOOOMY!!!Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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I have an old book that includes a lot of pics of early steam locomotives and I think I might have found a match to this loco. The rather unique feature of the loco is the 11 spoke pilot wheels, most of the other 4-4-0's I saw in the pics had 8-9 spoke or solid wheels. I looked through my book and came up with this pic:Another interesting feature is the double band of rivets on the smokebox, both locos share that trait and it doesn't appear on very many other locos, although Baldwin used that design on some of theirs. Both locos also share a lot of other characteristics, so it's possible that they are of the same class especially being a New Haven engine. Perhaps someone can research #810 and see if they can find a builder.

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The double rivet line is most likely because when the engine was new it didn't have that length of smokebox. They probably wanted to make room because they super heated it, possibly. Although I can't believe that that locomotive is super heated...probably not, nahh, it's a soak. Anyway, I think that because of the rectangular builders plate it pretty much makes it an Alco. But it COULD be a baldwin, but very likely that it isn't. Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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it being an ALCo would be a good theory, except for the fact ALCo didn't exist until 1901. I'd agree with Frank, dating in the 1890's, and say it's either from Schenectady or Brooks. of course it could also be from Cooke, or any number of builders. Bradley Linda
Waco, Texas

TKW Paint Shop

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LAST EDITED ON May-20-04 AT 08:11 AM (EDT)

But I thought Cooke was a branch of Alco. Like for example the D&RGW Narrow Gauge Rotary OY was built by the Alco Cooke Works....Sounds like Alco may have bought Cooke at some point?Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Yes, it was Cooke Locomotive works until a few years after ALCo was formed, then it became a part of ALCo.Bradley Linda
Waco, Texas

TKW Paint Shop

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Both this and the original photo at the start of this thread are virtually identical to the 256 built by the Old Colony Railroad in its own shops in 1893. It was then exhibited at the Columbian Exposition. Following this it returned to revenue service and was retired in 1925
Beer is not a matter of life and death. It is much more serious than that.
mervyn.

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The various appliances used on the engine, the extended smokebox noted by others, and its livery strongly suggest 1890's. 1899 was the year automatic couplers were Federally mandated, so this supports the 1890's as well. Right you are Kevin about that being an era of tough railroading. Another book that gives insight into 1880-90's railroading, this time Colorado narrow gauge railroading, is the book "Little Engines and Big Men". Amazing the things those railroaders overcame on almost a daily basis in order to move tonnage. You had to LOVE railroading to stick with it!
Andre MingVisit VSC's temporary web page at: http://www.vscalecreations.comVisit VSC's Forum at: http://www.3DTrains.com

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Yeah it certainly is a labor of love, steam railroading. I am hiring out with the Cumbres & Toltec this year, but I am only 17. I will finish high school first, but have a job waiting for me, as fireman. Shoveling 2 1/2 or 3 tons of coal in an hour is tough and dirty work. But I will be in heaven. I plan to stay there as long as I can...until I die of starvation or something! The era you stated Andre sounds right, the boiler jacketing appears to be painted Russian Iron which is an older scheme....Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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OK...great! Now we have a good idea of who probably built this guy and when, but there doesn't seem to be a match (or even a close cousin) in our File Library. (Let me know if I missed it.)Any of you experts on MSTS locomotive building care to take this on? I'm modeling the Old Colony-Newport line and have my track laid from Fall River, MA to Newport, RI, plus a piece of the Providence & Fall River line west of the Taunton River. My approach has been to put down every piece of track that I could find during ANY era. I've saved that as a starting point and am now deleting track to create semi-prototypical models of several different era's: circa 1900, circa 1950 and present day. Besides the track differences, there will be differences in roads, buildings, etc. (Don't know yet what I'm going to do about horses in the 1900 version.) Not striving for absolutely authentic models, just reasonably representative. Anyway, I'd like to have at least one sort-of authentic steam locomotive for the circa 1900 version. I can find any number of typical 1950's engines in the File LIbrary, and George Kennison has already put together the rolling-stock for the present-day Old Colony-Newport (see the downloads on their web site). There's no rush to get this done, as it is now sailing season so my time on MSTS takes a back seat. Let me know if you're interested. Charlie

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Sounds like a very interesting route concept CharlieB. Best of luck with it.As for horses/vehicles/ of 1900. I know EXACTLY what you mean. I'm putting the finishing touches on a route set in 1901-1902 and there is indeed a dearth of such supporting cast. In my case, I simply ran out of time.
Andre MingVisit VSC's temporary web page at: http://www.vscalecreations.comVisit VSC's Forum at: http://www.3DTrains.com

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Charlie,Search for "Columbia" in the steam loco section of the file library.That'll bring up Jon Davis' outstanding model of Baldwin's 1893 Columbia, which is as close to what you want as anything I've seen.

(Anything by Jon Davis is outstanding, but it seems that he's been concentrating on narrow gauge lately.)There's a good package of horses both with and without wagons at uktrainsim.com. Also various old steamrollers and steam tractors.The Brits, and Europeans in general, seem to really love their old late 19th- and early 20th-century steamers. There are vast numbers of them available. By comparison this era in North America is almost completely neglected, at least in standard gauge.
-JF-

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Magnificent, right down to the spoked wheels on the pilot truck! Steam from the whistle even (too bad the bell can't be animated). Jon Davis has done a beautiful job on this one. I put it on the head of a two car consist made up from George Kennison's OCN passenger carriages and it looks nearly perfect. Columbia is a 2-4-2, of course, not a 4-4-0, but its definitely the right era and overall appearance. Thanks to all for your help. Charlie
Newport, RI
Old Colony-Newport Branchline

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Maybe you could kindly ask Jon if he could change the wheel positins so it becomes a 4-4-0? She'd look great as a 4-4-0! /JonatanSteam rules!

Never trust computers. If you do, they will betray you.I'm the steam freak, ph34r me!!

My E-mail jonatan.gronoset@telia.com

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A new set of guesses...
Taunton Locomotive Works...Many Old Colony locomotives were built at Taunton. (Railroad Magazine, August 1948, pages 6 and 8)Rebuilt around 1880...The extended smokebox is part of a spark arresting system almost universely adapted in the 1880's. Most new locomotives and rebuilds were so equipped during this period. The system didn't really work and was abandoned by the early 1890's (John White "American Locomotives" Pages 111, 123, and 124"Thanks for the chance to use all these damn books, sorry I didn't have an answer earlier.Frank MusickMoving America into the 19th Century!

www.kelticsylk.com

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