Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question

We're trying to adjust the steam locomotive smoke for a smoking chimney on a caboose, but cannot seem to come to a compromise that's suitable. We're adjusting the size of the nozzle to various apurtures, with mixed results. If the smoke at the point of entry, i.e. the top of the chimney, is reduced to fit the pipe, then the plume goes too high. If we enlarge the nozzle size it gets too wide at the base, but the plume is at a reasonable height. > Is there a way to have both a narrow base and a short plume?. And, too, the rate at which the smoke exhausts from the stove pipe is too rapid. Can this be slowed down in the engine file? Or is this a global adjustment, hence not desireable to mess up?
These 4 views show the effects the various nozzle sizes have on the plumes' characteristics.Any ideas anyone? Thanks in advance.Tim

Street and Interurban Electric Railway Models
Sumpter Valley B&B Gang
Willamette Valley Route
(No timetable for release)

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RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, chuckzeiler, Apr-07-04, 01:23 PM, (1) RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, K36487, Apr-07-04, 05:50 PM, (2) RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, chuckzeiler, Apr-07-04, 09:47 PM, (3) RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, steam4me, Apr-07-04, 11:04 PM, (4) RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, chuckzeiler, Apr-07-04, 11:21 PM, (5) RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, tryagin, Apr-08-04, 00:47 AM, (6) RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, E428, Apr-08-04, 03:06 AM, (7) RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, 6330trainfan, Apr-08-04, 07:10 AM, (8) RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, chuckzeiler, Apr-08-04, 11:56 AM, (9) RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, E428, Apr-08-04, 01:24 PM, (10) RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, E428, Apr-08-04, 01:41 PM, (11) RE: Steam Exhaust - Smoke properties Question, CumbresEngineer, Apr-08-04, 04:52 PM, (12) Too High? MSTS LOGIC=You Need More, timken, Apr-08-04, 10:52 PM, (13) RE: Too High? MSTS LOGIC=You Need More, tryagin, Apr-08-04, 11:14 PM, (14) RE: Too High? MSTS LOGIC=You Need More, crick14a, Apr-11-04, 12:49 PM, (15)

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And, we did try making the caboose a diesel, but the diesel smoke pivots above the point of origin, so as speed increases, the diesel smoke exhibits a pointy part that precedes the smoke stack, making it appear as though the cupola is the source of the smoke. So we rejected the caboose/diesel setup in favor of caboose/steam because the steam smoke appears (to us) to be a better graphic.

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Guys, that looks really good! Great idea!
Future Cumbres & Toltec or Durango & Silverton Engineer. Go to my informative K-36 page:
http://www.freewebs.com/drgwk36 Visit the Pheasant Hill Railroad's (My G-scale) official site!
http://www.freewebs.com/phrrVisit the Red Mountain Gorge Narrow Gauge R.R.'s official
site:
http://groups.msn.com/MSTSNarrowGauge/narrowgaugerouteformsts.msnw

*Proud to be a "Friend" of the Cumbres & Toltec.*

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LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-04 AT 10:10 PM (EDT)

Thank you, John. As it progresses, more details get added.Just today, Tim added an Aladdin lamp to the inside of the caboose.Now to get the smoke under control.

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If you change the default smoke to Niels Picciotto's smoke, you'll get wispier smoke/steam effects which may help.Browse to
http://www.railpage.org.au/steam4me/trainsim/smoke_replace.html
RegardsYuri.
(steam4me)
-------------------------------------
Webmaster
Australian MSTS Add-ons Page
-------------------------------------

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LAST EDITED ON Apr-07-04 AT 11:48 PM (EDT)

Yuri, Tim and I have debated this, and my opinion is that our models should work for the average person with the default setup, meaning, default smoke. However, I'm already out of line because the model in question is narrow gauge, and could not possibly look correct on any default route. So Tim and I are in a quandry.At this point, we've come up with a disclaimer, which only seems right, if not unfortunate.It goes like this (please feel free to add, subtract, or change anything),
This product is designed for a particular segment of the Microsoft Train Simulator (MSTS) community, and has not been tested on the six default MSTS routes.It will work correctly on the Sumpter Valley Route, available at http://www.train-sim.com File Library (svrr1.zip to svrr5.zip).

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Yuri, I myself use Niels Picciotto's smoke, and am very happy with and I recommend it.

Tim

Street and Interurban Electric Railway Models
Sumpter Valley B&B Gang
Willamette Valley Route
(No timetable for release)

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Hello
When I built the new smoke, I also tried to make it appear a little better using the parameters of the eng files, but after a long time trying to improve it with no success it seems that the "important" parameters are coded in the exe file... Tim, you pointed the fact that the smoke goes higher when decreasing the nozzle, and that's true, but there are other parameters in the eng file that affect the steam aspect (and the engine's behaviour): SteamSmokeUnitsPerPoundOfFuel( # )
SteamMaxSmokeUnitsReleaseRate( # )
The first one affect the smoke color, and the second one also affects the width (and it seems the "thickness") of the smoke. You need to work on this one and on the nozzle width in order to achieve a compromise. Unfortunately, yesterday, after reading your post, I tried lowering the smoke on one of my engines, while maintaining it of a low diameter, but had no chance... Also, there is a line at the end of the eng file, with the startup parameters of the engine, and there is a "Smoke Quantity" condition, but changing that had no effect on my engine. I tried building a boiler with very little steam production, but that seems also to have no effect on the smoke... Maybe there are some parameters in the Global folder, but that will make changes on all of the engines in the simulator.
If the vehicle was the player's one, you can use the steam valve (lower smoke, but faster speed...), but that doesn't seems to work on AI engines.
Start trying changes on the two parameters involving the smoke aspect, maybe you'll find a good compromise Hope this helps a little...My best regardsNiels Picciotto

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Hi Niels,
A question for you, do you know if the various parameters used for setting smoke on a steam engine are able to be used within a diesel engine`s eng file to give a better overall effect. It might solve my little smoking problem if they can, I haven`t done much work with the files associated with steam engines.Regards
Stew aka 6330trainfan
Albany WA Australia

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LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-04 AT 12:27 PM (EDT)

Niels, it may be that the problem we're having is as a result of this NOT being the lead engine. The SteamSmokeUnitsPerPoundOfFuel( 0 ) parameter has no effect, it's value can be zero or 1000 and the results are the same. On the other hand, SteamMaxSmokeUnitsReleaseRate( 1 ) can be any number at all, except zero, and the results are the same. Making the value zero turns the smoke off altogether. All the other values related to steam production have been reduced to ( 1 ) with no change in the appearance of the smoke. Also, we have not (yet) been able to alter the color of the smoke.

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Hello
Chuck, yes, it's possible that you are experiencing -more- problems because the vehicle is not the lead engine, but I can assure you that, despite my smoke replacement is almost 1 year old, and I sometime try to change some values, I have never achieved a good compromise on the effect...
I have no "final word" on this question, and on many other that I tried to improve, but my actual conclusions are that many parameters regarding the smoke does not affect what they should (or I think they should), but instead affect the behaviour of the engine.
I'm no eng guru, all of my eng files are compiled and tuned by a friend that know physics much better than me... The one of the first times he gave me an eng file, it was realistically tuned, but with an horrible giant smoke (nozzle with the same diameter as before the tuning). I changed the lines I gave you in the other post, and sent it back for final testing... His answer: "what you did to that engine, it's not able to pull the same train anymore". In your application, with a caboose, that's not a problem (0 power), but that was to explain what the parameter actually do...
The color of the smoke: again, I did not try changing it on an AI unit, but I remember a bug that's here since day 1... The first unit smokes black (under some conditions), the others smokes white. So, I think there's no possible solution on that. Instead, what can be done, is a change of the smoke texture: when I was working on the smoke replacement, I used a color picture, and the colors were also on the cropped images that were used on the texture, and ended in the sim with the same (reduced by the conversions) colors. So (again, it needs more experiments, it's not proved to be 100% correct) it should be possible to have a smoke texture with colors. What can't be done (that answers also Stew's question, and another one that was posted sometime ago in another thread) is a color change of the diesel smoke, as it seems MSTS only looks for the "consistence", in this case the alpha channel; I painted the smoke pink, but the result in the sim was the same black smoke. Instead, if you change the alpha of the texture, there is a difference... But that's another story
I think, unfortunately, that the "useful" parameters involving the smoke behaviour (after # meters it should start vanishing-disappearing, after #cm it should start increasing his size after exiting the "nozzle", the speed at which it needs to be positioned gradually ahead of the engine, when accelerating, etc.), and that will make it impossible to change the aspect... At least with the actual infos (I have).
Anyway, I'll make some more investigation on that, as, sooner or later, I want to make an improved version of the steam smoke (and maybe also the diesel smoke...). Any new discovery about that subject will be submit to the forum My best regardsNiels Picciotto

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I forgot to answer part of Stew's questions...
No, I don't think this will be possible, as the way MSTS uses the smoke files is different: the steam texture is used in the "color" and in the "consistence" (I mean if you change the texture and it's alpha, you'll get a result of both modifications), while the diesel one seems to only use the alpha channel of the texture, ignoring the texture itself. And, the steam smoke is not "deformed", except growing in size after coming out the nozzle, while the diesel smoke seems to be "stretched" and rotated by the movement of the engine.
Still, you can try the mod you suggested: copy the eng file, so you have a backup, and then try adding the lines from a steam engine to the diesel... If everything goes well, you have discovered a new way to change the diesel smoke ; the other possible reactions of the sim are: you have luck, and it will simply ignore them; you have no luck, and you get errors... I think there are no other possible solutions on that... I'll try myself this evening.My best regards
Niels Picciotto

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Well one thing, make the nozzle alot lower if you can...they wouldn't have THAT much smoke comin' outta that thing. Now, I can see it's winter time and any condensations hangs in the air alot longer, but it is still too much. If anything, you should put out a winter type 251 or something and have a little steam trailing like that from the air pump and steam leaking from random pipes....maybe steam coming off the injectors?Just some ideas...Thanks alot,Kevin Bush,

I will have my hand on the throttle of a K-36 very soon Mon Freunds!

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Just like the carspawner, it's bass-ackwards! StackFX
(
0 3.8033 0.2769
0 1 0
0.4 tall plume

StackFX
(
0 3.8033 0.2769
0 1 0
0.9 Short Plume!Both screenies are wide open and down in the corner.

Steve T.

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Yah, but Steve, look at the base of the plume, how it gets wider at the stack, with the bigger number, shorter plume. It's just another case of having to make a compromise. Tim

Street and Interurban Electric Railway Models
Sumpter Valley B&B Gang
Willamette Valley Route
(No timetable for release)

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I think it would look better if you used a diesel eng.file smoke
more realistic...........R

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